2004_08_robsacher_large.JPGVital Stats:

- Rob Sacher
- 48 Years Old
- Co-owner Luna Lounge & Luna Sea Records
- Grew-up in Brooklyn; now lives in East Village


Rob's World:

When Rob Sacher and his business partner Dianne Galliano decided to open Luna Lounge on Ludlow Street in 1995, they weren't really sure how it might develop. The neighborhood wasn't yet the nighttime destination it has since become, and according to Sacher, "There were only a very small handful of live music venues, and most of those were only accommodating bands that had records out. When we first opened, we were really just accommodating the locals, which we did with a great deal of pleasure, and many of them were great personal friends of mine."

Sacher notes that MTV's "Unplugged" was very popular at the time, and he says many of the people hanging out at Luna then were in electric bands that saw the potential of holding "Unplugged"-style shows in the back. "It wasn't really intended originally to be any kind of venue, and I certainly wasn't thinking of myself as a gatekeeper to an entry level position for any musicians. You know, I was just having a good time with my friends. And the band Lotion was the first band to do an unplugged show back there. They were as big as Pavement at that time in New York, so it was a real big event. It was packed, and I was like, 'Wow, there's something to this here.'"

In the years since, Luna grew beyond these "unplugged" shows to become a desired destination for emerging bands. "Right now, I think I've got 800 or 900 bands who have gotten in touch with us. They all want to play gigs. And we've only got three or four slots a night open. And then we get 25 CDs every week. And another 25 requests to go to web sites and check out (various bands) MP3s every week. We're getting like 40 to 50 – sometimes 60 – requests for gigs, and we have maybe four or five open slots."

Luna has been instrumental in helping many local bands get started; for example, Sacher personally invested in Longwave by releasing their first record through his Luna Sea Records label. Luna Sea has released eight albums, and Sacher says, "As soon as I can afford to do it again, I would love to, We haven't had the money to work on any more records because we don't know where Luna Lounge will be moving to."

Moving? The lease for the location which Luna Lounge has called home since opening will run out in mid-2005, and the building's owner plans to tear down the single-story structure. Currently Sacher is looking for a new location, and with the neighborhood changing so much, possibly one even away from the East Village and Lower East Side. For a time, Luna Lounge, Arlene's Grocery and Mercury Lounge were mostly alone in their small area just below Houston. By the end of the decade, the neighborhood started seeing more traffic, and has now peaked with the openings of clubs like Pianos and Rothko as well as expensive trendy restaurants. Unfortunately for small business owners like Sacher, that has caused the commercial rents to skyrocket.

"The prices of everything have gone up so much that … the commercial rents I'm looking at now (are) going to be 125-150% more than what I'm (currently) paying," Sacher says. "Retail real estate costs more on Ludlow than it does on Park Avenue. And you can't even get a license because the community boards have come out with this map red-lining certain streets where no more licenses will be approved."

He believes newer clubs which have opened in the area may ultimately suffer due to their locations. "Rothko just opened, and they're in the middle of the block on a completely residential street. Just imagine 25, 35 people standing out in front of that building every night – talking, smoking cigarettes. How long do you think it's going to be before they're closed down for noise violation? They're in a five story residential building."

Since Sacher doesn't want to start charging a cover he's very serious about possibly leaving the neighborhood. He thinks his best shot may be in Chelsea, and he sees no reason why Luna Lounge couldn't be as successful there as it has been on Ludlow. "When we take email addresses (from customers at Luna), we ask people where they come from. Only 20% of the people live on the Lower East Side or in the East Village. That means 80% are coming from somewhere else, so why do they have to come to the East Village? Why can't we have three or four good clubs in Chelsea?"

Part of Sacher's optimism about being able to relaunch Luna in another neighborhood stems from his belief that the New York music scene is more vibrant now than ever before, as the opening of so many new clubs indicates. "It shows that there's such an interest in wanting to see bands and coming to support bands, which is a wonderful thing, so I think it's great.." He continues, "I've been seeing bands since CBGB's in 1975, and I can tell you there are more clubs now and there are more people going out to see bands now than ever. It's a phenomenon in New York."

While the neighborhood may have evolved so much that Sacher may feel forced to leave, there is one recent NYC change which he loves. "I'm completely in support of the smoking ban. I love it. I would say that there are definitely some smokers that I don't see anymore, but they're replaced by greater numbers of people who do not smoke who now feel more comfortable in a bar."


Ten Things to Know about Rob (with debts to Proust, Krucoff, Meyers-Briggs and previous G.I.s):

What's the best thing you've ever purchased/salvaged from the street?
I really dig those guys that come up from South America, the Indian guys that play the music in the subways. I bought some CDs from some of those bands back in the early 90s. Andes music, I guess that was called. And I had never been exposed to that stuff before. Never saw it live. And that shit blew my mind when I first saw it.

Which city establishment sees more of your paycheck than you do?
Freshdirect.com. Then I don't have to go out at all anymore. I'm really anti-social, and try not to see anybody.

Gotham Madlib: When the ________________ (noun) makes me feel _______________ (adverb), I like to ______________ (verb). Feel free to answer, or explain your answer.
When the Yankees beat Boston, it makes me feel wonderful, and I appreciate knowing that there's always going to be someone with less talent.

Personality problem solving: Would you consider your personality more hysterical or more obsessive, and have you changed since living in New York; has "New York" become a part of you and vice-versa?
I'm certainly not hysterical. And I don't think I'm obsessive. I'll decline to answer that. I can't work within those boundaries.

NYC confessional: Do you have a local guilty pleasure?
Maybe Baskin-Robbins on Houston Street. And it's also combined with a Dunkin' Donuts, so I walk in that door and I'm walking through the gates of hell.

When you just need to get away from it all, where is your favorite place in NYC to be alone, relish in solitude and find your earthly happiness? (We promise not to intrude.)
My apartment! No doubt.

Describe that low-low moment when you thought you just might have to leave NYC for good.
I'm living it right now.

Besides more square footage, what luxury would you most like to have in your apartment?
Sunlight. I face north so I have no sunlight. It sucks. And I'm on the ground floor too.

311: Help or hoopla? Have you ever put it to use?
Oh yeah, a shitload of times. I love it. I think having 311 helps people resist the idea of murdering their neighbors. You know what I mean. Drop a dime on 'em, you hang up, you feel better.

There are 8 million stories in The Naked City. Tell us one, but try to keep it to a New York Minute.
Before I knew who Elliott Smith was, I knew him as this very quiet guy that had discovered the bar (at Luna) and would stay there till closing or near closing most nights, writing constantly in a journal with some kind of dark whiskey drink on the rocks or straight-up in front of him; he always had some kind of bourbon or something like that in front of him. Week after week after week.

They said his name is Elliott, and I thought he was Elliott Sharp, an avant-garde jazz musician. Night-after-night he'd be in there and I didn't want to disturb him while he was writing, but he'd see me walk in or he'd look up across the bar and see me and nod or sometimes I was next to him or something, and I'd say something very small, but I never felt comfortable disturbing his sanctuary. So after about six months of this, he came up to me one night, and he said, "I'm playing at Fez. Would you like to come and see me?" And he was so shy about it and he was so sweet, I said, "Absolutely." And I thought I was going to listen to avant-garde jazz or something which is totally not my thing, but he seemed like such a nice guy.

And so I went to Fez to see him, and there was a line of like 800 people to trying to get into this place and it only held like 300, you know. And I said, "This guy's huge. I wonder what he's about." I had no idea who he was. I got in, and it was wall-to-wall people downstairs – I mean I couldn't move an inch in any direction. And he came out and he did only like 9 songs or 8 songs by himself. It's just hard to put into words, but he was stunning. It was like George Harrison. The beauty of George Harrison in say 1972, you know -- All Things Must Pass. And the grit of Kurt Cobain, who I never met, but I could always kind of feel that grit that he had. Elliott was like a blend of those two things. To be in such a small room and to know that I was a part of that album XO – that I put some walls together for him to write – because he wrote that album, XO at the bar at Luna.


Luna Lounge (212-260-2323) is located at 171 Ludlow Street between Houston and Stanton Streets and on the web at www.lunalounge.com. Rob preferred conducting this interview by phone and would love to hear from anyone with thoughts about a new space. His primary criteria is, "I just don't want to be under anyone's mattress." If you'd like to read more of his conversation with us, follow the link to a transcript which includes his thoughts on other bands and clubs, what's happening to the LES, and the development of Luna Lounge.

-- Interview by Aaron Dobbs & Lily Oei

A conversation with Rob Sacher:

What do you say that you do? Do you consider yourself a bar owner? A music promoter?
I guess I consider myself to be one of the people, probably one of a dozen people in New York City who control the gates of the entry level positions for musical artists who are out there performing.

That was actually one of my questions. Luna Lounge has been one of the launching pads for a litany of bands that have gone on to some degree of success: The Strokes, Fountains of Wayne, Longwave, Stellastarr**, etc. What did you want Luna's place to be among the NYC music scene? Have you achieved your goals?
Well it's kind of changed over time. It's evolved. When we first opened in 95, there were probably tens of thousands of musicians that were living in the neighborhood at that time, and there were only a very small handful of live music venues, and most of those were only accommodating bands that were already on -- that had records out. There weren't many places where bands could play. So when we first opened, we were really just accommodating the locals, which we did with a great deal of pleasure, and many of them were great personal friends of mine

Originally when we opened we had a tiny little PA, and the show "Unplugged" was very popular on MTV at that time. And a lot of these very loud electric bands that were hanging out at the bar and playing fooz ball and, entertaining themselves saw that in the back room we had the potential to do -- they could do an "Unplugged" kind of show. And they were kind of uncomfortable charging people for that because they didn't know if they would suck or not. And in the back room at that time, when we first opened, we had nothing but easy chairs. So we had about 15 big fat old lazy boys.

So when you first opened you didn't intend to have music at all? It was just going to be a bar?
When we first opened, we knew that we were going to do something with that back room because I designed and built that back room for a purpose. I didn't exactly know what the purpose was. So I just kind of let it evolve. The front room opened, and people started coming and hanging out there and having a good time, and then they'd go into the backroom, and we had the music from the jukebox at that time being piped into the back room. So they would be hanging out in the back room on the easy chairs, you know. Which was real nice and separate from being in the front room at the bar. It was mellower back there. Sometimes we had candles back there. It was kind of fun. But we didn't have a stage. We just had a little riser that was about a foot high. And we had easy chairs up on that riser too.

So it wasn't really intended originally to be any kind of a venue, and I certainly wasn't thinking of myself as a gatekeeper to an entry level position for any musicians. You know, I was just having a good time with my friends. And the band Lotion was the first band to do an unplugged show back there, and you know, they were as big as Pavement at that time in New York, so it was a real big event. It was packed, and I was like, "Wow, there's something to this here."

So we did these unplugged shows for three or four months, to the end of the first year we were opened, and you know, we had some fun with it, but I think we all got kind of bored with it. I think it was like, you do it once and then you don't come back to it again. You don't perform … when you're an electric band you don't perform acoustically more than that one time that you do it. It's fun then, but you don't really want to do it all the time. And we certainly didn't want to be a folk room. We knew that anybody who walked in and said, "Yeah I've got a guitar … an acoustic guitar, and I'd like to sing eight songs," we would tell them go to Bleecker Street or something. You know what I mean? We weren't into that at all.

So one day I went to a party, and my friend had these big-ass speakers at his party, and he said, "I'm selling them. I'm moving to San Francisco." I said, "I'll buy them." So we bought them. We put them up. We still had this tiny little sound board that we had bought. It was smaller than a toaster, it was so small. But it worked for us, and at that time, all we were able to do was put vocals through these big speakers that we had because although they were big for an apartment, they certainly weren't very big for a nightclub. So we used to just put the vocals through them, and we started having electric bands playing in there, and we actually did that for a couple of years that way.

And then finally we said, "You know what? We're actually getting pretty good at this, and let's go spend some money." We bought a really nice mixing console, and we put a hell of a PA in there, and all of a sudden we … and Dianne my partner – Dianne with two n-s. Galliano. She's a co-owner.

She has a band right? I think I saw her play once.
Yeah, she's been in a few bands. Her band broke up, so she's not playing with anyone. But, yeah, she's a great bass player

And anyhow, she and I were the only sound engineers for the club so we were both working three or four days a week doing the sound for the bands. And the sound basically was kind of hard because we were only putting vocals through the PA so we sort of had to be like an orchestra leader during the sound checks. You know, we'd have to say, "OK, if there's more than 25 people in the room, you can turn up, but you (someone else) can't turn up because you're already too loud." It was kind of a weird way to do sound because we couldn't do anything once the show started. The bands would have trouble knowing what their balance should be like onstage when they're not that experienced, and the bands we were working with were like that. So it was kind of tough, but it was fun, and we learned how to do what we were doing.

When we finally put a better PA in there, we got pretty good at mixing sound for bands, and then more and more bands started wanting to do shows there. Right now I think I've got 800 or 900 bands who have gotten in touch with us. They all want to play gigs. And we've only got three or four slots a night open. And then we get 25 CDs every week, easily. And another 25 requests to go to web sites and check out their MP3s every week. We're getting like 40 to 50 -- sometimes 60 -- requests for gigs, and we have maybe four or five open slots.

You mentioned being one of, you said about a dozen, launching pads, so to speak …
Yeah, I'm one of about a dozen people that are involved in the -- that you've gotta kind of impress us as a group, or some of us as a group in order to get anyone's attention. Longwave is a perfect example of this …

Stellastarr** too now …
Stellastarr** is another perfect example of that, definitely. For example in the situation with Longwave, Steve (Schiltz) the singer -- the main guy in Longwave -- he was a guitar player in Scout, and we wanted to do a record with Scout. I was a big fan of Scout, and Scout ended up doing the record with someone else. Steve came to me and said, "I have all this solo material. If I put a band together would you release it." I had not heard it, but I said, "Definitely." And he put a band together because I said I would put a record out for him. So we put out his first record, and eventually, you know, the people at Mercury Lounge gave him a gig, and that would be like a second, another person in the 12. And then he got a gig at the Bowery -- that's like number 3. And then this guy Jim Merlis -- who was a publicist -- saw them, and he was Nirvana's publicist, and he's The Strokes publicist.

Oh is that how they got on the tour with The Strokes?
Well in part. The weird thing about … well as the story goes between Longwave and The Strokes – the story hasn't really even been told. It's kind of like the bands knew it, and we kind of knew it as friends. The story basically goes that while Steve and Longwave were doing all these shows -- they were booking their own tours, and they were getting gigs in Boston and playing all the way down in Atlanta. Way before they opened for The Strokes, they were doing their own shows playing in front of 10 people in the basement of pizza places; playing in front of 50 or 60 people, opening for bands that might have had an indie record out, The Sheila Devine in Boston really took a shining to them. There are bands out there that can draw 200 or 300 people, 400 people, in like three or four markets. The Sheila Devine were like that. They had a major label -- I think it was a major label -- record come out, and it bombed, but they were big in Buffalo and had a big following in Boston. So, Longwave found like two or three of those kinds of bands and they were opening for them, and that really helped them a lot at the very beginning.

But The Strokes were brand new. I mean the Strokes had only played a few shows, and they were young, and while they had a lot of energy and a lot of things they were doing right, they really weren't technically good players yet. Just, you know, they did these fashionable high profile shows in Manhattan -- like three of them, maybe four -- and then that's it. Meanwhile Longwave put 100 shows under their belt.

The guys met at, you know I think they met at 7B, or one of the local bars, maybe it was 2A. And Julian and those guys, Fab the drummer -- they were big fans of Longwave. They had seen Longwave at Luna and at Mercury, and they thought they were really good players, and they wanted to learn how to play like them. So, The Strokes are really, really smart guys, and they know how to grow, and they know where they have to go in order to be better.

You've mentioned a lot that I'd love to hear you expand on. For instance, how you were one of the first clubs in that neighborhood. I remember when I first moved to New York and to the East Village, and I lived on 3rd and 1st, and everything was above Houston, like Brownies, with the exception of Mercury and Bowery. And your neighborhood, people weren't really going there yet. And now, everything is there. How do you think that the neighborhood has changed -- and the music scene has changed -- since Luna opened?
Well this is what I'd really like to talk about actually. This is the story as far as I'm concerned. This is my life story right now. Yesterday I saw a location on 26th Street, since we have to move. I found a location yesterday on 26th Street. I don't know if we're going to sign a lease there or not because we've got to negotiate it. But the fact that it's in Chelsea – it's on 26th between 6th and 7th – because there was a time, as I said before ….

When I first opened up Luna, I was really catering to myself and my friends who were musicians and who lived in the neighborhood, and that's how everything got started. Other people sort of discovered that that was a good idea and started coming down to see the bands and hang out, go across the street to Max Fish. And then someone opened up Arlene's Grocery, and they were basically doing the same thing as us. They created – it was a free music venue. And then it was basically these two clubs -- you know, us and them for quite a while. And Mercury. I wouldn't book certain acts, quite a number of acts that Arlene's would book, so we sort of had separate followings, but we were doing the same kind of thing, but we had different kinds of bands playing, which was cool. I thought that was great. And then they expanded, and they changed their philosophy and they started charging $7 or $8 to see bands, and they were basically doing the same thing as Brownies or any other club. Then they opened up Sin-é, and then someone else opened up Pianos and then recently Delancey and Rothko. And these are all -- the new clubs that have opened, honestly, I think they're not as good as the original two clubs that opened. Arlene's I think is pretty decent, and I think Luna is also pretty decent. But it shows that there's such an interest in wanting to see bands and coming to support bands which is a wonderful thing so I think that's great.

Do you think it's more so than there's been in the past or is it a resurgence because obviously there was the heyday of the 70s and the punk scene and …
It's the most it's ever been. I've been seeing bands since CBGB's in 1975, and I can tell you there are more clubs now and there are more people going out to see bands now then ever. It's really really something that people … it's a phenomenon in New York. It's almost cliché. At the same time, there are so many people that are not interested in that kind of thing that are also coming down to the neighborhood for other reasons. They're coming to the French and Italian restaurants, and they're going to the techno DJ nights that are being held in basements of some of the restaurants and that kind of thing. That has nothing to do with us but it just puts people on the street, so it makes the street even busier. Which is why I'm kind of thinking seriously of leaving the East Village.

Because it's too busy?
Because, yeah, it's too busy. And because it's so busy the prices of everything have gone up so much that everything I'm looking at now – the commercial rents that I'm looking at, they're going to be 125-150% more than what I'm paying. So when my lease is up – whatever I'm paying I have to pay 1 to 1-1/2 times that amount of rent. My rent is $5000 a month? I'm going to have to pay $12,000-$13,000 a month to be in the East Village. It costs more money for real estate …

Is it that much better in Chelsea right now?
Aaron write this down. Real estate on Ludlow Street costs more than on Park Avenue right now. Retail real estate costs more on Ludlow than it does on Park Avenue. That's your headline. I'm telling you, man, it's so expensive. And you can't even get a license because the community boards have come out with this map red-lining certain streets where no more licenses will be approved. And I'm a hardship case because we already have a license, so we may be able to … we might have an opportunity to open in a place that another bar might be able to.

So has the popularity of the neighborhood actually made it completely cost-prohibitive for something like Luna to exist, at least there?
Yeah, in the way that we want to do it. For example, Delancey opened up, but they have an inferior room because they put their bands in the basement, and they only have an eight foot ceiling. That sucks. Rothko just opened, and they're in the middle of the block on a completely residential street. Just imagine 25, 35 people standing out in front of that building every night, talking, smoking cigarettes. How long do you think it's going to be before they're closed down for noise violation. People live in the building above them. They're in a five story residential building. Luna right now is in a one-story commercial building. I don't want to open up underneath someone's mattress. You know what I mean?

That's why I'm talking about Chelsea. The price in Chelsea … the increase will be only about 75% more. In other words, what I'll pay $15000 for in the East Village will only cost me $10000 in Chelsea. The Starbucks on 2nd Avenue and 9th Street just closed up because their rent went up to $28,000 a month.

And that's not even a big Starbucks.
No. And on Delancey and –- what is it – I think it's Delancey and Suffolk or further east. Delancey and Clinton, I think it is, there's a Burger King and their rent is going up to almost $20,000 a month, and they're closing up. They're being forced out.

At some point … I mean you just said Burger King and Starbucks are closing, obviously the rents will have to come down.
Yeah, some rents will come down, but they're being replaced by people who are charging $18 for chicken. I'm talking French restaurants and Italian restaurants with linen tablecloths. They're averaging $40-$50 per person who walk in there. Those are the people who can afford their high rents. And they don't pay their taxes, a lot of them. So it's the expensive European restaurants that are opening that are driving out the inexpensive live music venues. You know, if I do find a place in the East Village, I'm going to have to charge -- and all the other clubs are going to have to charge -- either $8 to see a band or $8 to drink a beer.

And you want to keep it the way it is now.
Well I love doing it this way, and I would like to be able to continue to do it this way, you know? As long as the bands want to keep playing there. But that might all change. I think I was a trendsetter when I first opened up Luna on Ludlow Street, and now.… You know, when we take email addresses, we ask people where they come from, and we take about 35 email addresses, 35-40 a night, and ask people where they come from. And only 20% of the people live on the Lower East Side or in the East Village that come out. So that means 80% are coming from somewhere else. So why do they have to come to the East Village? They could come to … if they can get there by subway, go. I mean, go. Why can't we have three or four good clubs in Chelsea? It's not like there are people that are any different in Chelsea than they are in the East Village now. All the bohemians have moved to Bushwick. And I looked into the idea of opening a live music venue in Williamsburg, but it's dead there.

There already are several there, aren't there?
Yeah, and they suck. Most of them do. Their energy is no good there. The energy is weak. I don't know where (the energetic crowds) are. Maybe they're at loft parties in Bushwick. But the shows are not really that interesting. The clubs are not very interesting. And the people are very mellow in Brooklyn.

A couple more things before I move on to some questions we're asking everyone … because unfortunately I'm not going to be able to use everything. Are there any favorites of yours, bandwise, that you see coming up right now?
Yeah, absolutely. The Mugs. The Mugs are just brilliant. If you're a fan of Neutral Milk Hotel and maybe Morrissey. Great songwriters. Great vibe. Great, great rhythm section. I really like a band called The Soft Explosions. They're sort of like Black Rebel Motorcycle Club meets the Velvet Underground.

Are there any recent bands that have played at Luna that you're surprised for whatever reason didn't really break through?
Break through what?

Well I mean really get on to some sort of – not necessarily mainstream popularity but even indie rock popularity, bands like, until recently Modest Mouse, which had a following but didn't break through or maybe The Decemberists right now who seem to have a really big following but aren't necessarily …
You know Aaron, I never really think about breaking-through. To me that's an irrelevant concept.

Well say maybe being successful enough to continue longterm like a Death Cab For Cutie or …
Well let me put it this way. There are some bands out there that I'm surprised haven't gotten substantial indie record deals. I mean, to me, that's breaking through at my level.

Right, see, that would have been a better way for me to ask the question.
Yeah. Selling 500,000 records is inconceivable. But selling 40,000 records … I'm surprised that … yeah, I guess I was always surprised that Scout didn't get a record deal. I thought they were wonderful. I always enjoyed seeing Scout. I heard they just broke up. I loved a band from a few years back called Cardinal Woolsey, and they reminded me of Fountains of Wayne. I always thought that if they had gotten a shot, I think people would have liked them.

Also I was interested as far as your own indie label, Luna Sea Records, is that just a side project for you? You haven't released that many things so what does it take for you to actually believe in something enough to put the energy into it?
Well we've released, I think it was seven albums and … actually eight. We actually released another record this year. But I think -- it got Longwave to the next level, and they signed to RCA, and I'm really happy about that. We haven't had the money to work on any more records because we don't know where Luna Lounge will be moving to.

Is Luna Sea something that after you've settled the Luna Lounge situation you will …
Will we put out more records? I think so. Yeah definitely. It's fun putting records out, so as soon as I can afford to do it again, I would love to.

One more thing: how has the smoking ban affected you? Or has it?
My business has gone up.

It has?
Yeah, I'm completely in support of the smoking ban. I love it.

Really? Were you surprised it went up though?
No. I knew it would. Absolutely knew it would. Non-smokers outnumber smokers by more than two-to-one.

Do you think you've lost any business from smokers?
I know one smoker who only goes out in Brooklyn now because they don't enforce the no smoking laws in Brooklyn. I would say that there are definitely some smokers that I don't see anymore, but they're replaced by greater numbers of people who do not smoke who now feel more comfortable in a bar. I've been in this business since 1980 and it's wonderful not coming home having inhaled a quarter of second hand smoke.

Finally, tell me if there's anything else you want to tell people (or ask them) regarding the future of Luna?
If somebody knows of a one or two story building where Luna could move to in Manhattan south of 34th Street, they should get in touch with me. I'm looking to move in mid-2005 because they're tearing the building down that I'm in. It doesn't have to be a one or two story building only. It could be a one or two story building or a commercial building. I don't want to be underneath anyone's mattress.