Quantcast

Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Top Public Schools Not Worth It, Says Study

2011_06_adrock.jpg
AdRock didn't actually go to Stuy
Sending your teenage terror to one of the city's top public math and science high schools doesn't necessarily mean much when it comes to later standardized test scores, according to a new paper from economists at MIT and Duke. But that doesn't mean that the schools, which they refer to as "exam-schools," don't have value. Oh, they do. Trust us.

"The intense competition for exam-school seats does not appear to be justified by improved learning for a broad set of students," the authors say. But they also acknowledge that test scores don't paint a full picture of a school's value. And it is the rest of that value that helps explain why so many kids with no interest in math or science can be found at Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech—ostensibly the city's math and science high schools. Yes, SAT and AP scores might not justify all that studying for "the test" in 8th grade, but the value of a brand name education should not be discounted.

Basically the National Bureau of Economic Research working paper found that smart kids in a non-special school will perform pretty much as well on standardized tests as they would if they attended a specialized high school. To figure that out they looked at the top tier exam schools in New York and Boston and compared those students test scores on Regents and SAT exams to high achievers at other public schools. "The high achievers in our samples clearly have good outcomes, but most of these students would have done well without the benefit of an exam-school education," they wrote.

And that makes sense. What the paper doesn't address is the fact that these specialized high schools continue to offer a leg up to their alumni long after they've graduated. While students within the schools may compete fiercely while students (one of the many reasons why in most specialized schools students are only allowed to apply to a limited number of colleges), but things are a different matter outside of school. For better or worse we know more than a few people who have found their diploma from a math and science high school to be just as useful in the New York job market as their prestigious college degrees. Cronyism, not just for private education institutions!


Contact the author of this article or email tips@gothamist.com with further questions, comments or tips.

Comments [rss]

  • Since when was the purpose of a specialized high school to increase one's SAT scores? The specialized high schools provide an academically challenging curriculum that prepares students for the rigors of college. As a graduate of Brooklyn Tech who did not earn high SAT scores, I was accepted to several top-tier colleges, sat side-by-side with students from top U.S. prep schools and high performing suburban high schools, and was well-prepared for the work. SAT scores are just one component of the college admissions process. So, what do they predict? The SAT is designed to predict first-year college grades - it is not validated to predict grades beyond the freshman year, graduation rates, pursuit of a graduate degree, or for placement or advising purposes. However, according to research done by the tests' manufacturers, class rank and/or high school grades are still both better predictors of college performance than the SAT. I have some questions about the National Bureau of Economic Research's study. What was the methodology used? Who was studied? If you're suggesting that the local public NYC high school provides an education equivalent to a specialized high school, take a look at the difference in curriculum, the graduation and the college acceptance rate. They are by no means equivalent. When private school is not an option, specialized high schools are great options.

  • 1) I learned more at Stuyvesant than at the Ivy-league school I attended (don't get me wrong, I had a great experience at my undergrad), so I feel going to Stuy was worth it.
    2) However, I do think that it's harder to get into top schools from Stuy just because the competition is so fierce. There are so many other students with the same SAT score and GPA applying to the same schools, whereas at another city HS, you would stand out more as being at the top of your class.

  • Lisa Daglian

    Science, class of '80 (my brother was class of '81). To this day when I tell people where I went to high school they are impressed and there is a subtle difference in the way they look at me and act around me.  Definitely provides a leg up in this competitive world.  But the best thing about high school was my 30th reunion, where I reconnected with an old friend who is now the love of my life :)  And to the naysayers who will likely chime in that that is not unique to 'test school' I say who cares?!

  • Bob Jones

    Okay, some of these comments are really, really stupid. I graduated from Stuyvesant several years ago, and while I was extremely appreciative for the fact we had modern facilities and plenty of opportunities provided to us, I couldn't stand just how narrow-minded some of the students were in their views that they were automatically better than others because they did well on one test.

    This study confirms what most people already knew, and people who are denying it or coming up with BS explanations really have to get over their insecurities. Test scores from schools like Stuyvesant on *average* might be higher than test scores from another high schools not because the kids are so much smarter, but because troublemakers who would lower the average for others are less likely to take an optional test in 8th grade, let alone get a very high score. Hopefully this study will bring some people back to reality, and help others realize they really didn't miss out on anything by not attending a "specialized" school. After four miserable years of being surrounded by dumb but overly confident snobs who felt like they were God's gift to the world, I can honestly say the only thing special about the school is how it maintains its undeserved reputation.

  • milkham

    You'll get beat up less at stuy, science or tech

  • Natalie Deckard

    I went to Stuy in the mid-90s and, of course, as the article says, we all did well on standardized test, but there was no understanding that we were out-performing other good students at less prestigious institutions. The way Stuy (and Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, Townsend Harris, Hunter, etc.) stood out was in the way it took kids from generally humble backgrounds and gave them every opportunity to really play in the big leagues come college admissions time. Most of the kids I went to school with commuted from crappy apartments in the outer boroughs, I would say the majority of parents spoke poor nglish if any at all - but the percentage that went Ivy League rivaled that of any $50,000 a year private school.

    Also, to the point of cronysim in the NY job market: here, here. I found that the words "Stuyvesant High School" on my resume meant WAY more than "Columbia" when getting that first job, and even the second. There are a million ways besides smarts to get into a good college, but the NYC special schools are still the poor man's Harvard.

  • NoCondom

    The majority of those students that attend Stuy, then and now, do not typically come from low income households. So, notwithstanding the obscene prices middle and upper class New Yorkers like to pay for their box apartments, it is unlikely the people you went to school with at Stuy came from humble backgrounds.

  • countvoncount

    Brooklyn Tech grad here. Tech, like the other specialized schools, attracts a certain kind of student -- college bound, career oriented, hard working and dedicated to receiving a good education. I was back at Tech a few months ago and some of the stuff they're doing with those kids these days is amazing, much of it possible through the generous donations of successful alumni. Of my group of friends from high school, everyone has done incredibly well for themselves professionally, and almost all of us have at least one advanced degree. You won't see that at any of the non-specialized public schools, where graduation rates are abysmal and kids can barely read and write on a 12th grade level upon graduation.

  • I went to Tech '99 (that's Brooklyn Technical High School for you hipsters from outta town). I don't think you can underestimate the benefit of being around intelligent students who overachieve in almost every thing that they do. Also avoiding the gangs, general violence and drugs (well, drugs not so much) that you find in most of the shitty schools around the city is a plus as well. 

    My zoned school was Erasmus, which at the time (and probably still is) was pretty much one of the worst schools you could attend. If I had gone there, I would most certainly not be where I am today. I won't tell you where I am to day, but I can tell you it is awesome.   

    When I have kids, it's private school (probably military) all the way. But if I can't afford private, then specialized will be alright with me.

  • bull shoes

    Actually, Erasmus still is a bad school. Teachers and students alike at my school use it in this type of context, you know, the type that is " this school is horrible and one of the worst."  When high school letters came, one poor kid got into Erasmus. We were all laughing because it was hilarious.

    Well, I didn't get into any specialized high school at the time which kind of sucked. But I went to Murrow, did what I needed to do with my friends, studied hard, worked hard, got high scores on both my SAT and my Regents exams and now the list of colleges wanting to accept me includes Harvard and Yale. That shows how hard I worked.

    When I have kids, I would have them in a public school just for the low cost and the decent education. Because private school may be good but it costs too much and some of the uniforms are not too casual. And military school would be somewhat good but I wouldn't want to send my teenage daughter to an all-girls military school in Guam 20 years from now.

  • Olivia Lau

    High school is not all about grades and tests. There are high and low achievers in every school. Even in Stuyvesant, we had students that were consistently failing or getting low marks. From what I can tell, the best thing about specialized high schools is that the graduates actually want to come back! We love visiting our alma mater and taking out-of-town guests around the building. Nearly every person in my college (both those from NYC and those out-of-state) who did not go to a specialized high school hated their high school experience.

  • angry_pickle

    Sorry if this sounds blunt but

    We love visiting our alma mater and taking out-of-town guests around the building.

    Replace the word We with I.

    Nearly every person in my college

    Replace every person to every person I knew.  I went to a small college and nobody knew everyone much less profess to them their feelings about their high school experience.

  • ixvnyc

    Cronyism? Yeah, right. I may not know anybody in this town, but I know this: if I was hiring, and had a choice between a kid who went to Stuyvesant or Bronx Science and did well there, and another kid who simply had a better SAT score, I'm going with the first kid a hundred times out of a hundred. Do I even need to explain that?

  • aloveston

    If you're hiring people based on where they attended high school & their SAT scores, you have some bigger problems.

  • pr3t3nd3r

    well I would prob get the vibe that the first candidate was able to do well in a competitive, high stress atmosphere as opposed to just showing up to a lower tier school and maybe taking an SAT prep class

  • aloveston

    If a candidate's high school matters, it's a problem for the hiring business.

    Still, if that high school was a high stress, competitive atmosphere, that high school is doing a disservice to its students. 

    There's time for that getting your MBA & working in finance.

    Now, I don't think that is what Stuy is doing, but they get closer than most schools.

  • jza1218

    It helps with internships to have that information on your resume. I went to Bronx Science and I got plenty of conversations about my high school in my internship interviews

  • nimbyist

    it's really stupid, but many job apps i filled out in college for large corporations asked me for SAT scores, as if they're indicative of individual performance at any level.

  • angry_pickle

    I think some companies use SAT scores as a proxy for an IQ test and college GPA as a proxy for work ethic.  I read Google does something like this.

  • aloveston

    The SAT measures your ability to take the SAT.  It's insane that businesses are relying on that as a measure of intelligence or success.

blog comments powered by Disqus

send a tip

tips@gothamist.com