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Atheists Say "9/11 Cross" Is Causing Them "Mental Pain And Anguish"

072911wtccross.jpg
If you're an atheist, do not look too closely at this photo, or you may experience headaches, anxiety, depression and many other symptoms! (AP/Mark Lennihan)

Won't someone think of the poor atheists? With no God to appeal to for mercy, they can only rely on the justice of our imperfect court system, where they're suing to stop the famous September 11 Cross from being included as part of the memorial and museum at the World Trade Center site. Some see the cross, which consists of intersecting steel beams found in the Ground Zero rubble, as a symbol of perseverance and faith. But according to a lawsuit filed by American Atheists, the cross's side effects include "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack."

The Times turned to legal experts to see if the lawsuit has any merit, and Marc D. Stern, who has long studied church-state issues, says the lawsuit presented "an extra-difficult case... It’s a significant part of the story of the reaction to the attack, and that is a secular piece of history. It’s also very clear from the repeated blessing of the cross, and the way believers speak about the cross, that it has intense present religious meaning to many people. And both of those narratives about this cross are correct."

Asked what symbol atheists would prefer to see in the museum, David Silverman, the president of American Atheists, told the Times, "Perhaps an atom, because we’re all made out of atoms." It's just that when those atoms accidentally arrange themselves in the form of a religious icon on government property, Silverman has problems. And noted atheist Bill Maher agrees; reached for his reaction to the 9/11 cross lawsuit, he told Daily Intel:

The news from Norway reminds us that Christianity is also a religion with a bloody history, and perfectly capable of creating dangerous, violent extremists just as Islam does. Once you buy into the idea of things that are "holy", you're closer to buying into the idea of a "holy war." Anders Breivik was a terrorist calling for a Christian war against Muslims. In this atmosphere, symbols about whose god "rules" are not helpful.

At last, liberals have their own 9/11 to evoke whenever they want to end an argument! Unless the Port Authority wants to be responsible for another Oslo, they'd better do the atheists' bidding.

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Comments [rss]

  • James McLean Ledford
    Every religion/belief system should be included even the most fundamentalist of them all; atheism.
    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=318...
  • Wow. I never realized that "atheist" and "idiot" have one and the same meaning. Thanks for the clarification!
  • STFUDonny
    If people recovering bodies after 9/11 had taken comfort in worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster at Ground Zero, or gathered together to believe in nothing at all, those groups might have been included as being historically significant.  They were most likely too busy with lawsuits or just being offended at other's beliefs.
  • Speaking strictly as a Born-Again Pagan Atheist, I strongly feel that EVERYTHING must be done to prevent enabling Christian psychopaths from taking everyone else's misery hostage for their own propaganda purposes. Screw them.
  • You can't be a pagan and an atheist.  It would be the ultimate oxymoron, worshipping many gods yet believing in none.  As a classicist I can tell you classical pagan states were far more tolerant and assimilative of freedom of ideas and beliefs of others than you are yet wouldn't for a second remove images their own state/community religion from public view for anyone!
  • OF COURSE you can be a "Born-Again Pagan Atheist"! You can be anything you want to be; see the world according to anyway that makes sense you. Everybody has that option. Narcissist Christians and other religious psychopathic fascists take such options away from other people as a part of their world view. They have been enforcing this with sadism and violence from the very beginning. Gods are not "things"-- they are not dependent on out "belief" in them. I am an Atheist because neither my Gods nor that of the Christians are literally real. They DO NOT EXIST anywhere other than in my in my imagination where they help me make sense of the wacky universe we live in. I am tolerant of every belief and world-view so long as it doesn't tread on those of others. This is the *opposite* of the Christian mission. I am well aware about how tolerant Pagans were which is I am one of them. Pagans, both ancient & remaining are organic. They didn't care what others peoples beliefs were. Their statues are symbolic metaphors not intended to be taken literally. Again this is the exact *opposite* of the Christian world view.
  • jemIII
    I read all these comments, and can only think of a song by The Thrill Kill Kult..."and this is what the devil does..."
    This Nation is in a deep problem now---it may not survive as Founded, nor even close to it....just read some of these thoughts....you will tremble, too!
    America does not need a George Soros, or Barrack Obama, to "fundamentally transform it"...we are already in deep shit!
  • robingee
    Barack has one r.
  • Then why do they keep looking at it?
  • matteus
    Obviously the cross is meant to remind Americans that 9/11 was a plot against not just against America but Christianity itself.
  • m_c_nyc
    Atheists - crusaiders of 21st century :)
  • lovelette
    Why frame this article around what the atheists want? It's not about that. Placing this cross on the site is wrong on many levels. I believe in god and yet I have a problem with its inclusion on the site. They're going to have to remove this. Its extremely offensive to all other faiths.
  • Peter Fisherman
    the issue is that the atheists don't want this "chance formation of the cross" in the 9/11 Museum. Does that mean the Metropolitan Museum of Art must remove all of the Religious paintings of notable artists down through the ages? That would leave a very large portion of the Met in poor shambles. That would have to include the section on Greek Pagan Gods, which is religious too! This lawsuit is not a lawsuit on a Museum piece as is stated, it IS an attack on Christianity, and in my opinion all religions.
    As an art restorer in my past, I can say that the 9/11 Cross is being blocked from Ground Zero Museum! Museums preserves history. Yes the Cross may be religious, but it is still part of the history. Fr Judge was highly regarded by the firemen, was given #1, and remained with the firemen in the Towers, until their death. Fr Judge and the Firemen were able to be courageous because of their belief in the Truth of the Cross. Whether one believes in it or not does not matter, that IS part of the history.
  • No. The Met receives artwork primarily at the behest of private collectors who seek to share their work with the public. If you've ever noticed, almost every gallery is named after a philanthropist (and usually their spouse) who has either decided to place a part of their collection in the museum for the public good or has asked that after their death said works are donated. The NEA grants that the Met receives, despite being public, usually go towards either arts education or the upkeep of the museum, while donations and membership fees are used for the restoration of works. 

    The Met's religious artworks do not signify any preference towards religion, but rather are on presentation for their significance in the field of art historic or aesthetic value, and again they are either donated of purchased using private money. Remember also that a number of religions from Christianity to Buddhism to Islam are all represented at the Met, with only Christianity having more because of the ease of collecting European artwork and a larger range of work from which to choose.
  • I say include it. In a few hundred years we can look at it as a relic of where most of our country was mentally at the time.
  • The fact of the matter is that there were Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists & Other's that died on 9/11. To put up the symbol of the cross is just disrespectful. Imagine if they put up a Star of David? The Tea Party would collectively loose their shit. That's why there is such a thing as separation of Church & State because you can't cover anyone without excluding everybody, so don't do it at all.
  • Mr. Silverman, you go against all God intended you to be.  You receive your very name and heritage from God.  God chose the Jews to reveal Himself to the world.  He gave you the Patriarchs, the divine glory, the covenants, the law, the temple worship, the promises, and through the Jews is the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all.
    God told Abraham that through him and his descendants He would bless the world.  You are one of his descendants, yet you use the gifts, talents, and abilities God has given you to war against God and to lead people away from their Maker. 
    Can a person with abilities given to him by his Creator, go to war against His Maker with those abilities and prevail?
    God is gracious, Mr. Silverman.  He is in the business of forgiving.  It's not too late for you to be the blessing God intended you to be.  http://atheistlegitimacy.blogs...
  • PhotoHarris
    This cross makes this a Christian site, excluding all those of non-Christian religions. Did no Jews die in 9/11? Is this a sign of rising antisemitism in this country? There were Muslims who died in 9/11, yet Americans condemn all those who are Muslim. The people of this country have much learn about tolerance and religion. We do not have an established religion despite those Christians who call this a Christian country. We're headed down a dangerous path of intolerance and disrespect for all but Christianity.
  • CurmudgeonNYC
    I have a solution: Turn the fucking thing upside down.
  • A nice big "X" would do just fine too!
  • What offends me is the condescending tone of this article. This is a legitimate discussion to have and atheists are absolutely marginalized and underrepresented. The author of this post is entitled to his opinion and Gothamist has been upping the sarcasm quotient for a long time, but give us a break. I can't think of another group Gothamist bloggers are so quick to treat with this level of derision. 

    Whether or not this is the right battle to have picked, I'm proud of American Atheists for speaking up and representing us. Many atheists, myself included, think that religion is often destructive and seeing religious symbols in our public spaces goes beyond something we can simply ignore. And because we're often invisible in public debate—we're told to shut up because we "don't believe in anything" and therefore have nothing to contribute to conversations like this one—it's important for atheist activists to grab the spotlight once in a while and explain our views. If more atheists could feel confident being "out" to their acquaintances (many of us do not), more religious people would understand why this is a legitimate complaint.
  • Right on!
  • angry_pickle
    I can't think of another group Gothamist bloggers are so quick to treat with this level of derision.

    Sorry, but you must be new to this site.
  • As a proud American patriot and atheist, I'm ashamed that fellow atheists are trying to interfere with this cross at Ground Zero. This cross is widely supported by victims and survivors of the Sept. 11 attacks and we need to pick our battles. In some parts of the world it is legal to murder us, and we're getting butt hurt over a cross at Ground Zero? Ridiculous.
  • robingee
    "Butt hurt"?
  • birdtird
    WWJD
  • Didn't god leave any other symbols of death behind?
  • Jamie_McDonald
    What I don't get is why you would even want this up there if you're a Christian. What it basically says is, God didn't really care enough to step in and stop 3,000 people from getting burned or crushed alive, but he *did* care enough about making a monument to himself out of the wreckage. Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't really seem like someone worthy of worshipping.
  • litlstarlett
    Because the problem with religion is that it's rationalized and interpreted by everyone in a different way, which makes for a dangerous situation. If God was real and heaven was real, and I was one of those people killed, I'd be pretty pissed off sitting up there while other people lived, because I had to be sacrificed for my family and friends to appreciate life more and all of that. That's what religious people say when something bad happens - it's to "make you stronger" etc. You should appreciate life on your own, not just when something tragic happens.
  • notreallyfunny
    Screw the cross and atheists. Will someone please give amatterofrecord the attention s/he deserves?
  • theoddfather
    It's highly inappropriate to put religious symbolism at the museum when it's religion that caused so much pain and suffering on that day. Want to pray? Fine. But don't shove your symbols in the faces of so many hundreds who don't share your beliefs. It diminishes their suffering by implyng that only christians were affected and only christian symbology can bring peace of mind to others.
  • CurmudgeonNYC
    COTD
  • dtillyer
    This is very well put.
    Why do we always need to give special recognition to crosses.
    A cross, as a religious symbol, has no  purpose in this place.
    If you want to wear a huge gold cross around your neck, I can't
    stop you. However, let us have just a few significant places where
    we don't have to look at someone else's symbolism.
  • Let the families of people who died in the WTC that day have a vote and decide...

    As it is primarily a memorial for the victims, they should have a word to say and if they want any other religious symbol, let them have them
  • If they need to have a cross present for personal reasons then they can wear one around their neck on a chain.
  • theoddfather
    It's not about the feelings of the families, it's about the constitutionality of the cross. It clearly crosses (nyuk, nyuk) a line.
  • theoddfather
    Where was the christian god on 9/11? Had the day off or something?
  • angry_pickle
    By your definition, nobody should perish if a God exists.  Clearly since humans have believed in higher beings for thousands of years despite a billion deaths, they don't share your definition.
  • SPsGhost
    Didn't you hear? He was whittling a really neat cross out of the WTC I beams.
  • This lawsuit is total bullsh*t! As a fellow atheist, I'd rather not see that cross included in the memorial BUT I'm not claiming to have gotten whiplash at the mention that it might be.
    Religion/spirituality/faith or lack thereof is a personal thing and should be treated as such. Keep religion out of it because no one needs to keep trying to force it down our throats.
  • I don't believe in any religion, and I don't care if there is a higher power.  Point is, I can look at a cross and interpret it however I choose.  Freedom of religion?  Let's try freedom of thought.
  • Emily
    In this country, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. You do your thing, let others do theirs. If a star of David or other religious symbol had been created from the rubble they would let that stand too. This isn't about picking one religion over another, this is about what was done, then, and leaving it there now.
  • Thank you!  You have freedom of ideas, not freedom from the idea that you personally dislike.
  • IAmSassy
    It wasn't "created." It's *crossbeams.* It's garbage. It's formed that way. It was part of the building. Like the walls and the floors. Nothing special at all. It's the people who saw it that MADE it special. Do you think if ATHEISTS saw something and made it SPECIAL and wanted to put it on PUBLIC land largely paid for with TAXPAYER money CHRISTIANS would be okay with it?? OMG NO!! But Atheists say NO unless everyone is fairly represented. Wow. How American.
  • SPsGhost
    Freedom of religion explicitly means freedom from religion. My freedom of religion includes not having others shove their religions in my face, and also includes not having my government condone the interpretation of events by religious groups as being in the national interest.
  • ANGRYGOD11
    If you are forced to choose, then you are not really free. Freedom of choice means sometimes picking none of the above.
  • As an atheist, I'm OK with it if it's presented as a relic, along with others. To NOT include it at all would be to censor history.
  • krinklecutfires
    I think christianizing the site is absolutely offensive.

    Lots of different races and creeds died in that horrific event and having a cross in the memorial is a revisionist attempt to make this tragedy and the subsequent wars into an us vs them issue between Christians and Muslims.
  • When did atheists become so intolerant? Are we paving the way to atheistic extremism? I don't see the other religions complain about this piece of metal...
  • litlstarlett
    Yeah but if there was a Star of David or Islamic symbols put there, someone would be bitching about why those are there. Christians think that they are the only ones allowed in this country, with THEIR religious symbols being the only ones accepted. I mean, have we not forgotten about the Islamic community center that is near the WTC site? If that was a church no one would be saying anything. I think the point of the lawsuit is that separation of church and state is never followed and we alloy Christians to do whatever they want, but hold a double standard for other religions. If Christians are allowed to do something then other religions, or lack of, should have the same rights.
  • crusher153
    the protests against the islamic cultural center at the trade center has to do with alot of hate and fear on both sides. people are sceptical to believe someone who isn't forthcoming with information (especially with something as sacred as the trade center.) lets not forget it wasn't crazy fanatical christians who want to build a church on that site. its muslims, with ties to crazy radical muslims that are building on the site. if white christian supremisists were to try something like that you would see christians come out from the woodwork in opposition. why should this be any different?
  • I call old tired BS.  Everyone with a clue knows that the cultural center site is NOT at the world trade center site.  And when do we see christians come out of the wordwork condemning other extremist christians?  Instead we get the same excuses you hear from Islamic groups... they were being persecuted, they had a point but took it to far, it's distasteful but they have a right... yada yada.  How many murdered doctors and blown up health centers that do abortions have had your wonderful christians protesting and condemning the bombers/assassins?    Barely saw a ripple other than acknowledging the Norway killer was an extremist... all the right wing news media was tilting the story that he wasn't a real christian... Hey! Isn't that what the Islamic communities here in the US say when some nutjobs kill in their name?
  • angry_pickle
    Considering that the entire country was founded by Christians, there is a special historical connection between this country and the religion of Christianity.

    If you recall, it was Islamic fundamentalists who brought down the WTC.  An Islamic community center does not belong there.
  • robingee
    Oh pickle, you are way off.
  • IAmSassy
    This country was NOT founded by Christians. It was founded by Deists and Secularists. Not one Founding Father was a Christian! (Google. I'll wait.) And there were innocent Muslims who were killed by the 9/11 attacks, too. And the largest part of the money to support the memorial is taxpayer money from Americans who not just Christians. That money is from all of us, including nonbelievers. We have right to say what how our tax dollars are spent. I'm sure YOU don't want your money spent on JUST an ATHEIST symbol, do you? Well, I don't want mine spent on just a CHRISTIAN symbol.
  • If everyone had a say about their tax dollars never being directed to anything they personally took offense to, nothing would ever receive funding in this country.  Museums would close, the arts in this country would go even further down the tubes.  Because trust me there are plenty of people who don't like their tax dollars funding those things either, because they support ideas they personally don't like at all.
  • Damn straight!
  • groganz
    If the metal cross is all it takes to pacify the religious nutjobs, I say let them have their little totem. There's nothing more dangerous, after all, than a True Believer with a persecution complex.
  • SPsGhost
    "If the metal cross is all it takes to pacify the religious nutjobs, I say let them have their little totem. "

    Take a look back at history, it has never satisfied them, it only emboldens them to keep ramming their religion down everyone else's throats.

    Religion is like masturbation: there's nothing wrong with it as long as you keep it to yourself and do it in private, or with others who explicitly consent to participate.
  • SPsGhost, Now I *really* like the cut of your jib!
  • angry_pickle
    a True Believer with a persecution complex

    That describes the atheist perfectly.
  • groganz
    Naw, it only describes people who believe in shit that doesn't exist.
  • robingee
    pickle, that's way off.
  • litlstarlett
    It actually describes fundamentalist Christians

    "Christian fundamentalists in the Bible Belt feel persecuted or oppressed whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview.
    On closer examination of such claims it's more commonly the case that
    claims of persecution are better explained as annoyance at the removal
    of privilege or the curtailment of their ability to force their views on
    to others."
  • angry_pickle
    What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. A fundamentalist atheist is no better than a fundamentalist Christian.
  • IAmSassy
    How in the world do Christians feel persecuted? They are the largest percentage of Americans, so hold the largest percentage of voting power. THEY feel persecuted? Hahahahaha! What a joke! By whom? The Majority Congress that is holding our country hostage? The atheists that can only shout from their keyboards? Right. They say that because their bible says they must to feel righteous. Oh, tell me another one...
  • crusher153
    are you kidding? how do christians feel persecuted? i guess athiest trying to remove a cross (that a majority of rescue and recovery workers went to to clear their heads and to think about their friends and family) doesn't count. i guess the "seven in heaven" thing don't count either. it only counts when its against you. we aren't there trying to convert you. in fact i really don't want any nutjobs like you and spsghost associated with christianity. i do not protest against your lack of religion and a majority of christians feel as i do. it is your life, your freedom to decide what you believe. why try and influence this?
  • robingee
    Christians have eleven million TV shows, museums, churches, flyers left on my windshield, knocks on my door to try and convert me, billboards, radio stations... they vote to abolish or prevent things they don't like... they are doing juuuuust fine.
  • Rocknrope
    As Atheists, they should see nothing in that imagery and have no reaction.  It seems that they're confusing themselves with Jews.
  • IAmSassy
    Would it bother you if YOUR tax dollars were paying for a 17' steel symbol everyone in the world were visiting that had ATHEIST all over it on PUBLIC land at the WTC site AND NO OTHER RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS were present? And people were getting comfort from it? And it was part of the historical record of the event? But your entire American culture's presence was unaccounted for? Would that be okay with you?

    Because it bothers me...about the Christian symbol, if their's is the only one.
  • It was a piece of metal that was found at the site! nobody built it for that reason alone. if it really bothers you then you need to find a hobby and take a good long look at your life. There are shines to other faiths throughout this country and the rest of the world and I'm not demanding that they be removed.
  • Sandy Ramirez
    It would bother me if my tax dollars were spent actually making a religious symbol that represented only one religion and placed there. It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars are being spent moving a surviving piece of the WTC to the memorial and by pure chance that piece happens to look like a religious symbol.
  • robingee
    Anything to do with atheism is not tolerated very well by religious types; billboards, signs, things of that nature. You are right about that.
  • Rocknrope
    I'd try to answer you, if I had any clue what you were talking about.
  • robingee
    I thought Sassy's post was pretty clear; one thing/idea/philosophy represented and no others. But it's not "a cross" it's a leftover piece of metal. Smudges and smears and drips that happen to look like someone in a cloak does not equal Virgin Mary, but there will always be those who think OMG a religious symbol in the freezer case at Pathmark!
  • Rocknrope
    That's what I figured Sassy meant, but if it's an issue of representation, then that has nothing to do with Atheism.  Plus, I have no idea what "America's culture presence" means.
  • robingee
    I think it's meant to mean every culture that exists in America but it's worded really weird.
  • So.... you're saying you're like a child who must be protected from any ideas that may make you personally uncomfortable and that only things that are agreeable and comfortable to a majority are acceptable?  How does that protect anyone's freedom of ideas and sensibilty?
  • Sandy Ramirez
    As an Atheist myself, I must tell my fellows to STFU and let the cross be at the memorial. It's a piece of history and really it's more of a creation of happenstance than anything else. Stop making the rest of us look bad guys.
  • IAmSassy
    But it's not a CROSS. And it is NOT a "creation." It's a cross section of metal. From the building the fell down. It just happens to look like a religious symbol. So now we're supposed to let it become and ICONIC piece of history? 

    It will make it look like a battle between the Bad Muslims who crashed into the buildings and the Good Christians who defeated them...and that's not what happened. 

    NO. Many people died that day. Of all faiths. So everyone should equally be represented or none at all.

    That's fair.
  • Sandy Ramirez
    Oh give it a rest. It is a piece of history. I really don't care if it looks like a cross, a Star of David or a crescent. Yes many people dies that day of many faiths. This cross section gave succor to many. leave it be. Sometimes you folks just go too damn far with this level of nitpicking.
  • Again, what the cross is a piece of the WTC and a historical artifact.  If they are so concerned about religious artifacts in museums that are federally funded, why isn't a holocaust museum being sued?  Trolls.
  • SPsGhost
    Sure, it's an artifact from the event. But there were other big chunks of the structure and of the facade that were not picked, because they weren't in cross form. This is the equivalent of seeing Jesus Christ burned into a piece of toast and think it has some sort of other meaning beyond the fact that your toast is burned. It's offensive. I'd like to see it not be included, in favor of other pieces of the structure that have as much historical significance, but without the idiocy attached to them that this piece has.
  • imboredsoipost
    well f'in said
  • crusher153
    mr ghost,
    all i got to say is go fuck yourself!

     how is anything that people find comfort in offensive? yes there were plenty of other religions unfortunately represented in the fatalities at the trade center. but for us christians (who were down there for months and most likely the majority of people digging there.) it stood as a beacon of hope for a better day to some, and it also stood as a rememberance to all people who were killed there regardless of religion or lack there of.

    this is a peice of history and a large part of it.
  • OK, what other pieces of the structure would you like to see?  And you still haven't answered my question about the equivalency of a holocaust museum being federally funded.

    Isn't the whole point of being an atheist is that you believe a higher power doesn't exist?  If that's the point, you shouldn't be offended.  It's all about interpretation.
  • Matthijs van Guilder
    I think that more and more people are tired of having religion shoved down their throat and are not ready to give in to everyone who says "that's my belief". Fine, but keep it private and don't expect the rest of the world to back off because of it.
  • Pretending that the Holocaust is a religious issue is crypto-anti-Semitism.  An act of historical ethnic genocide is not equivalent to a religious insitution.  It is ridiculous & offensive to insinuate that it is.
  • SPsGhost
    Exactly. Communists, homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, and generally anyone who opposed the Reich were sent to the camps.
  • crusher153
    you are 1000% right. anyone who did oppose the reich were sent to those camps. but what you are forgetting is he attacked the jewish religion. it wasn't just the german or austrian jews. he went after jewish people of all types and ethnic backgrounds because they were jews. if you were a beautiful blonde haired blue eyed super model jew guess what? you were sent to build mercedes benzes just like every other jew. when you were no use to them, they put you in an oven. hitler did attack religion and don't forget that. the holocaust museum is a politically funded museum that has religous themes in it.
  • Hitler didn't "attack religion". He attacked religions that were convenient for him to do so. He made a religion for others out of his own beliefs, which is exactly what these asshole Christians are doing. Hitler *loved* Christianity. In fact Hitler *was* a Christian. Kinda figures, huh?
  • Except that the steel cross was not erected as an act of aggression towards non christian Americans.  It was erected as a benign comfort giving memorial.  There seems to be more militant aggression in the opposition to it here than in its intention.  
    No I don't carry the water for religion, I'm agnostic, but I don't find this offensive or aggressive in the least.  Atheists have every right to be offended just like everyone else who may find offense in anything, but no one has the inherent right to be shielded from anything that may ever be offensive.  
    The point is that you do have the right to take offense but not the right to be insulated from anything that may ever offend your sensibilities by forcing its removal.   You have every right not to acknowledge it, just like a moral conservative has every right to change a channel or turn a tv or radio off.   You don't have an inherent right to be protected from any ideas that makes you uncomfortable.   
    As long as the offending thing does not infringe on your rights, you don't have an entitlement by law to be insulated from it.  Stop acting like children who need authoritative enforcement to keep you shielded from anything that may make you personally feel uncomfortable.
  • SPsGhost
    And the difference between this and the Holocaust Museum is that this "cross" is being recognized enshrined as a religious icon. Whereas the Holocaust Museum documents what happened to an ethnicity. The Holocaust Museum isn't a church or a temple. This cross imposes a Christian point of view to an event that affected thousands of people of varying faiths, whether you choose to believe it in that point of view or not.
  • crusher153
    the last i heard jewish was a religion, not an ethnic background.
  • SFNY
    Where did you hear that, at church?

    The Jews are a group who share a common ethnicity and religion.   Shintoists, Sikhs and Copts are examples of other ethnic religions where the ethnicity and religion are interdependent.  

    As an apologetically clumsy example, Katz's Deli serves ethnic religious, i.e., Jewish kosher-style, food.
  • And you don't think religious icons are in holocaust museums?  They were freaking identified by Star of David patches!
  • SPsGhost
    This is a piece of metal that Christians are trying to tell the rest of us to believe is an image of their religion, and by including it in the memorial, the authorities are endorsing that view. The Star of David patches in the Holocaust museum are not random bits of fabric that some rabbi decided had meaning. They had meaning to begin with. That's the difference.
  • SPsGhost, I like the cut of your jib!
  • crusher153
    then look at it as a hunk of metal. it only means something to us because we were grasping for something to get us through the craziness of that time period. it is a part of history.
  • True. There are also relics in those museums that were used by camp inmates for (obviously surreptitious) religious observances. Today we can see them and learn about these religious observances as part of history. Nothing wrong with any of that.

    Now, if the 9/11 cross is installed over the main entrance to the 9/11 museum, as though it's a church, that's something very different, and I would object to that.
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