F Train Hell Begins for Windsor Terrace, Smith Street Stops

as is this one

so um i'm not from NY but I frequent this site alot cause it gives me a good glimpse of the city that I've always wanted to visit, and in fact might do so in Feb. so yeah my homie that used to live out here moved to NY like 15 years ago. so now he's one of you guys. anyhow, he said I could stay with him anytime if I don't want to drop cash on a hotel. so yeah, he lives in Corona, NY. is that a ghetto ass spot or is it nice? would you guys recommend staying there for a first time visitor? and yes thanks for all the tips on how to not piss you nerds off (sorry keep saying that you guys come across like that in your arguments sometimes, but it's def. entertaining. I mean not really "nerd" but use a lot of big word grammar correcting freaks) but yeah don't stand on the sidewalk gawking at my map, don't talk to or associate with "hipsters," don't ride a bike on the streets, anything else?

STAY HOME THIS PLACE IS HORIBLE

i'm rather content that you've enjoyed it, especially my dodging chris' points. i'll admit that my lack of knowledge in this area has made me jump at conclusions before i'd realized that i'm against the MTA on its use of money, and i'm really not against the fact that the MTA is going to have to fix this old structure. what can i say? angers clash often without reasons.

so how's the alternate service? i'm assuming the alternate service will suck a dead donkey's ass, as usual, as it has been for the past 25 years or so, as far as i can remember. my major complain is how the MTA would handle its alternate service. i'm all about how the MTA manages its money. based on my past experiences, i already know how it's going to be.

by the way, what's with this "newbie" complex? some (and maybe not you, "coltermac") who are writing against complainers seem to only write because "newbies are complaining." being a new yorker is like... being a human being. and nothing else. i'd never known that i'd have such a "privilege" of having grown up here, gone to bronx science, etc, until i met a few friends who told me, "wow, you're like the true 1% of new york! oh, people from such and such places don't want to associate with one another." sure, we have made fun of "newbies" since the 1800's -- can we move the fuck on already? there's a lot more to a human being than "where they are from." and a lot of my childhood friends have moved out of here because they can't stand it. i'm almost on the same boat as them, except i don't know where to go since i've never learned how to drive, and i really don't want to. i never had to.

and if any of you who were born in new york are standing behind the MTA purely for its sake (meaning, you're not here to bash the "newbies" and you looooooooove the MTA to the point of defending it) you must have been smoking some shit until it rotted your brain. yeah, just admit it already, you're not a fan of the MTA either -- you just hate "newly transplants." and i bet half of those (writing against complainers) weren't even born here and have "transplanted" here since their college years; and the other half are just those sad sad people from new york whom i've learned to dodge since my early childhood years.

getting puffed up just because you're from new york will give you high blood pressure -- trust me. and looking down on complainers who has recently moved here will make you even sicker -- why die before your time?

1. Resident of the area, and am irritated by the inconvenience of it. However, if the repairs are necessary, so be it.

2. This notice issue may have been public, but I haven't seen it. I read the news and keep up with the world around me, but I didn't hear about it. I would counsel those who are criticizing people who are crying foul about the notice to understand that (a) keeping up with all the issues with the MTA is facing has been challenging, and (b) lots of things are discussed and announced by the MTA - 2nd Ave line for example - and aren't followed up on. I hadn't heard it and I do live in the area (between 15th and Ft Hamilton, closer to Ft Hamilton).

3. That being said, in most cases, notice would have fairly useless (I do feel for the lease holder, obviously). I wasn't moving, so I'll take my lumps.

4. Having said this, the MTA could do more to help those of us in the area to deal with the issues. Shuttle buses would be a huge help. I'd say my complaint is less to do with necessary repairs and more to do with the fact that I don't feel adequate steps are being taken to help those affected.

5. Park Slope's primary stops are 7th Ave and 4th Ave / 9th St. Both are unaffected. The Windsor Terrace area is much more middle class, we're not the rich guys, lol. Comparing people who live by the Smith - 9th stop (gowanus) to Park Slope residents is laughable.

6. While the Cortlandt situation did indeed suck, there are multiple lines in the area within a much closer walk. My nearest stop to walk to (Church or the nearest Q train) are both over a mile. The Cordlandt stop has lots of other trains near it to pick up the slack. Windsor Terrace is a one line area, and that one line will be crippled.

... the beat goes on. The worst part? This will take longer than estimates say. Construction works that way...

[/off soapbox]

you guys are all nerds. real fucking nerds.

and here i thought i'm young and ignorant.

...a young, ignorant nerd -- cool.

you guys are all nerds. big fucking nerds.

15th St. is my stop, and while this is yet more F train fuckery, it only takes a few minutes to walk from the furthest 15th St entrance (Windsor Place and Howard St., which I use) to the closest 7th St station entrance on 8th Ave bet. 9th and 10th. That's one long block and five short, not exactly the Park Slope Death March, even in winter.

Oh, the whinnying of this person!

I remember you posting about this about a year ago, granted I did not know it would be in effect until 2 days ago. This affects me directly, but crying is not going to do anything.

WAHHHHHHHH cry baby cry!!!!

WELCOME TO BROOKLYN

Considering how long it took for subway service to be fully restored on the Manhattan Bridge, the Culver Viaduct repairs should be completed right before the Olympics comes to NYC.

Does this guy quoted way up top have a beard and use the word "artisinal" a lot? Big waaah to you, whining outlander, you.

And real always-informed New Yorkers never irrationally bitch about the MTA.

now i am a proud irrational bx science grad '96 b*tcher of the MTA.

or PIBSGBOTM -- just call me "pig's bottom" for short.

Yeah! And I bet he wears skinny jeans and listens to Blitzen Trapper. And he doesn't know how to dance! Yeaheahah...

We sure showed him who the real new yorkers are. That was awesome.

these plans have been well-known since 2008 and talked about since 2007. why is this a surprise? i don't live near these stations and i knew about it.

stop blaming others for being lazy and not paying attention.

i never pay attentions.

ps and the most well-behaved new yorker award goes to...

oh gosh walking home in the dark in park slope or windsor terrace, that sure is scary.

As far as the MTA website is concerned, only the F is suspended northbound at Smith-9th.

No, it doesn't. Here is the guide to this service change. The MTA's site clearly states what's going on.

From the page you just linked to:

"Smith-9 Sts station
No Manhattan-bound F Line icon service

From this station, take a Queens-bound G Line icon train to Carroll St and transfer to the F Line icon.

To this station, transfer at 7 Av to a Queens-bound G Line icon."

So, like I said, the F is the only train not stopping at Smith-9th going north.

And that's correct - the G will continue to stop at Smith-9th Street on temporary platforms, since it's a shorter train.

You're wrong about there being shuttle buses--they have those only on the weekends when there's no service at all between Jay St. and Church Ave. The MTA says nothing about shuttle buses relating to this.

The best option for people in Windsor Terrace will be to take the train one or two stops down to Church Ave, then turn around. Which is what I'll be doing for the next five-plus months, oh joy.

you wanna know where this shit wouldn't fly?

it wouldn't fly in manhattan. below 116th street or lower.

I guess you're too young to remember the complete rehabs of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. Or the year-long closure of the 1 below Chambers Street after 9/11. Or the fact that one side of the Cortlandt Street station on the R JUST reopened after being closed for 9 years. Or the Grand Street Shuttle, which wasn't a full-on closure, but made it damn inconvenient to get to Chinatown for a few years.

By the way, two stations on the J and three stations on the R in Lower Manhattan are closed every single night at 11pm.

i guess you're too old to realize my point. first off, these areas you are mentioning are not major money-making real estate areas. bridges leading out of manhattan, which is not really "manhattan"... 9/11 was obviously not planned by the MTA... LES/chinatown is still not considered major money-making real estate...

face it -- this is all about money. can you imagine this happening in popular, money-making areas (which are not destroyed by terr*rists who are not part of the MTA)? heaven fucking forbid. we all pay the same fare, yet the MTA takes care of the major money-making areas far better than these little dinky areas.

i don't live in this area, but some of my friends do. and the service in this area is atrocious compared to that of manhattan. frankly, it doesn't make me want to visit them as often as i'd like to -- being stuck in the F train is not uncommon.

This makes no sense. There is no money scheme. It's a station thats 90 feet above ground that needs to be fixed. The reason this shit doesn't happen in Manhattan is because the stations are underground and a lot easier to fix. You don't have the elements eating away at them like you do the elevated lines.

one way to tell if the MTA is using its money wisely in this scenario is if its "alternate service" fares satisfactorily with their customers, y'know, it takes a lot more money to put more of those shuttle buses.

based on my past experiences, my hopes are grim -- but they could always put more buses, but it means spending more money. i don't live there, so i'll let someone who lives there answer this. my hopes are grim.

and about the MTA and its corruption: the MTA has never been honest with its budget -- and no one can tell the MTA what to do. it's also not uncommon for its important meetings to be missing a few chairmen (out of 6 or 7 total!) every fucking time. OH HOW I WISH THE PUBLIC HAD AN OPTION TO FIRE A FEW OF THEM!

i've lived here all my life and i don't know how the public system is outside of new york city, but y'know what? new york's public transit system makes so far fucking much more than those of other cities, so you really can't compare.

"does this still not make no sense for you? well, hopefully no more. and know a lot more, and double that feeling. and double it again. good -- now you don't know what i am not talking about, meaning you do know what i am talking about. now, spread that feeling to other people too -- it's all about feelings. thanks."

When it comes to repairing the subway, how is an uncontrollable event like 9/11 any different than an uncontrollable event like a viaduct getting old? The MTA couldn't stop 9/11, and they also can't stop time.

And how is a complete repair of a viaduct - which will eventually bring more express service to Brooklyn, by the way - proof that the MTA doesn't take care of "these dinky little areas?" Would you rather the work not get done and the thing just fall apart? I don't think you understand that THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION here. It has to get fixed.

And how does citing closures in the past ten years make me too old to realize your point? Your point was that there have been no closures of subway stations south of 86th Street in Manhattan. Your point is wrong.

"how is an uncontrollable event like 9/11 any different than an uncontrollable event like a viaduct getting old?"

one can be foreseen. the other can't be foreseen.

"And how is a complete repair of a viaduct - which will eventually bring express service to Brooklyn - proof that the MTA doesn't take care of "these dinky little areas?""

yeah, they did it when they had to do it. it kinda reminds me of this fucking class i had to take when i had to complete the assignment but i really didn't want to. I HAD NO OTHER OPTION.

"And how does citing closures in the past ten years make me too old to realize your point?"

when you say that "maybe you're too young...", comparatively you're too old from my point of view -- i merely agreed with your original statement.

my point is that this is all about money.

Your comments make no sense. Just because the deterioration of a viaduct is foreseen doesn't make it any easier to fix. These service changes are the only way to repair such a massive structure (the highest elevated structure in the system, by the way). Why are they doing this? THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

Again, I invite you to explain to me how they could repair this structure without having to make these service changes. You can't, because THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

And please, explain how having to repair a viaduct "is all about money." If you are "too young," then you're obviously showing your ignorance.

oh, thou old and wise one. you don't need to get all worked up with me. i did that yesterday and i just can't seem to get worked up anymore -- sorry.

And please, explain how having to repair a viaduct "is all about money."

not only am i really fucking ignorant, i'm even barely considered "human" by most commenters here. so maybe you can do this research and then get back to me since i'm physiologically and mentally unable:

find out how many developers/contractors bid for this viaduct project and who got picked. and why. trust me -- this will not look pretty. my guess is that it went to the lowest bidder -- or something along this fishy line and how much money got wasted planning this project via over-time pays, etc. they've pulled this shit countless times before so why would they change now?

you're so old and so wise, so please find out. you do want to win this argument, don't you? you want to prove that i'm just a whiner, right? well, here's your chance. jump on it.

thanks in advance.

Ah, answering a question with a question! How shrewd!

I already won this argument when I disproved your original statement, "it wouldn't fly in manhattan. below 116th street or lower." (One other thing about that, by the way: there are no elevated tracks that would require long-term rehabilitation "in manhattan. below 116th street.")

Now you've muddied your argument by completely changing the subject into some senseless conspiratorial rant about bidding, contractors, and overtime. And since you provided no answer to my request that you explain your plan to repair the viaduct without disrupting the F train, it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

once again, i do not live in this area, so i don't really care all that much. but you with all this writing against the people from the area who are openly disgusted with the service change, i really hope you live in the area -- i mean, with all this writing for the service change and against the people who are complaining, i hope you have the decency to share their discomfort. and i'll even assume that you do live here even before you answer this. because if this service change doesn't affect you, you're being nothing more than a huge dickfuck and a gigantic asshole, because you're writing all this against the people who are openly disgusted, and you don't even fucking live here. and you're not even representing the MTA (unless you are.).

my main agenda with the MTA is how they handle their budget. since that's really not what you're about, i'll even say that you won all this "senseless conspiratorial rant" shit which i'm about.

my main message? don't get in people's faces when they complain, unless you're working for the MTA. it has nothing to do with you. don't fucking pretend to understand where they're coming from, and how they should behave. what they're saying has nothing to do with you. who the fuck are you to them? i mean, what the fuck is getting in someone else's face whose anger has nothing to do with you personally? are you doing something nice for them? do you think you're doing something nice for people in general? or do you just hate whiners and want some people to shut the fuck up -- and if this is the case, that is your fucking problem, and no one else's.

so unless you want to continue being an asshole telling complainers to shut the fuck up, do what's right -- unless you're really an asshole.

it's your choice.

As a Gowanus resident I've enjoyed this conversation, particularly 3_yarrow dodging Chris's points before eventually boiling his position down to "let people complain." Which I'd say is wrong if the complaints are directed at the MTA in this particular case. It's fine if people complain so long as they're not blaming the MTA for something over which they had no control. This entire situation is no one's fault. The viaduct is old and LONG overdue for a fixing. Short of building a tunnel under the canal, there's not much the MTA can do. Maybe they should have posted signs for a year at every affected station to warn newbies that this is coming. Hell, it was supposed to start a year ago.

note to self: it's not a good idea to hit reply after 8th-9th replies, as it can make your comment look like some cheap-ass free newspaper article. well, at least it's not one word per line.

COMMENT MOVED TO THE BOTTOM.

It did fly below 116th Street. Google "Lenox Rehab '98".

that's why i mentioned, "or lower."

hah, i should have played safer and written, "below 96th on the west side, and below 86th on the east side."

ps googling "lenox rehab '98" won't show anything -- that's how much the MTA cares about these stations which are away from the "more valuable" real estate zones. they would like to hide these embarrassing trickeries of disservice.

Lenox Rehab '98. 2 trains were running in only one direction along Seventh Avenue in Manhattan, trains going the other way ran on Lexington Avenue. On weekends, service was reduced to every 24 minutes.

tl;dr: This affected people above and below 96th Street.

cool. thanks for the info.

psst... the #1 train runs when the #2 and #3 trains don't run.

there's a huge difference between "no service at all" and "you can't take these 2 trains up until 96th st, but you can still take another one on the same fucking line."

...

The 1 train does not run to Park Slope. And the part of Lower Manhattan the 1 serves is basically a ghost town other than people going to the ferry. The eastern end of Lower Manhattan served by the 2 and 3 has the Stock Exchange, towers upon towers of firms and the Fulton Street megahub.

"The 1 train does not run to Park Slope."

i did not mention park slope, and there're a few reasons why. one of them is that nobody gives a shit all that much if something goes wrong in park slope, i.e. people in manhattan don't know or care about it.

The eastern end of Lower Manhattan served by the 2 and 3 has the Stock Exchange, towers upon towers of firms and the Fulton Street megahub.

these people who work there don't live there -- i personally pity those people who live in the financial district; that's just me. these mega money-making people live in between 14th (and maybe a little lower) and 96th street -- in other words, y'know, the really nice/expensive areas -- which are not affected at any given time. also, during business hours, a.k.a. the rush hour, these lower manhattan areas are also not affected, by any means, unless the area'd been destroyed by some terr*rists.

and i know that you're well aware of how many other trains pass through the financial district, especially during the rush hour.

Those "more valuable real estate zones" also have more jobs, more commuters, and closing them partially would have a much more drastic impact on the entire city's economy.

thank you -- so let's bring out everything to the table:

you say that this event was inevitable, and i agree with you.

i say that the MTA is all about money and you seem to agree.

what are we arguing about again???

These people must feel like real assholes-moving to a trendy, overpriced neighborhood and getting shafted by the MTA. The MTA could not do the work and allow the trains to come crashing down to the pavement below-that would be very inconvenient...

GOWANUS is trendy and overpriced? are you kidding me?

Since when did they call that area Gowanus? Must be the new breed of folk who flock to that cesspool. Wow good thing I dont live over there-it must really suck especially since the subway will be fucked for so long.

um Smith and 9th Street is smack dab in the middle of Gowanus. You must be confused...

windsor terrace? trendy? overpriced?

umm yeah it was so 2006...

Dude, cut back on the meth.

If you live at the Fort Hamilton Stop I suggest taking the BM 3 or 4 or the X29 from Church Ave and East 7th. I have been doing that for years and it is a much better way into the city then the F train. It takes me 7-10 minutes to get from Kensington to Lower Manhattan.

The x29 stopped running in June.

Well that explains my more crowded BM buses in the morning, Thanks!

Hehe, crowded BM.

not only is this a major inconvenience for residents but businesses all along the F line will definitely suffer. when will this MTA be called to task for its ineptitude?

The MTA is running a 100 year old system. You want them not to repair it every now and then?

...now that would be ineptitude.

What ineptitude? The businesses are either going to suffer now, or suffer much more later when the viaduct falls down and it takes a decade to rebuild. The viaduct is 80 years old and needs to be repaired. Quit your complaining.

@Chris sounds like you're the one who swallowed the bitter pill. This is an open forum, free for all opinions. Even yours, unfortunately.

@GentleGiant, yes the MTA should repair the F line. There's no dispute about that. It seems as if management needs some training on how to successfully execute, plan, and spend on a project. How has reduced service on the R line coupled with increased fares benefited anyone except the MTA coffers.

what are you talking about?

this is gothamist man, most defiantly not an MTA lovefest. It's by most accounts a sprawling, and inept organization.

But in this case, repairs need to happen, otherwise the thing will fall down. The MTA made this public years ago, with the schedule and everything.

Also, I don't like fare hikes either, but the MTA is hardly filling its "coffers" with extra pocket change. It's been mismanaged and underfunded for years, and in this economy, the only solution is to cut service and raise fares. Every other city transit agency has basically done the same. I'm not sure you noticed, but Americans don't fund mass transit very well....

Blaming the MTA for its ineptitude is like blaming the DOD for the War in Iraq. Put the blame in Albany (it's a state agency) and the city of new york (for not putting more pressure on albany)

Ok. Next time we'll just put you in charge.
Please submit your plans good sir!

@Chris, I think everyone is talking in broad strokes about the MTA, not this particular viaduct project. I'd venture to guess most people have had a poor experience with the MTA and think their track record speaks volumes. That's a fact. And I'm done.

And, goddamn, I HATE the expression "speaks volumes." Can we send that one back?

I am full of bile today.

I am full of bile today.

that's what an asshole said!

You have a gallbladder in your colon, sir!

thanks -- it's all yours when it comes out, miss.

Boo, it seems you either have trouble forming logical thoughts or just cannot express those thoughts in written English. Your posts here are pretty senseless. In this latest instance, you "venture to guess" other people's experiences and thoughts, and then proceed to label that ventured guess "a fact." Sorry, that's not how words work; but yes, you are done.

I'm bitter? You're the one blaming the MTA for the fact that all things get old and need to be fixed.

For your information, there is physically no way to execute a repair of the viaduct without taking tracks out of service and running trains on the express line, which requires trains to bypass these stations. And if they had to start and stop construction and move out materials every weekend so trains could run during the week, it would take more than a decade to fix the viaduct... and the MTA would be showered with complaints about the endless weekend shutdowns.

It seems that when it comes to criticism of the MTA, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

@Chris, I do lay blame on poor management of the MTA, not the workers. It starts at the top. I'm pretty sure there's an historical record of poor management here.

I don't think the MTA is unaccustomed to criticism, much like any other business. I'd be ecstatic if they proved me wrong. And I'd be the first to admit it. Go ahead, MTA. Wow me.

Sorry, you're completely and utterly wrong. The MTA is not to blame for the fact that the viaduct is 80 years old, needs to be repaired, and cannot be repaired without shutting down service. Management cannot control that.

By all means, if you can point to any specific action the MTA could have taken to prevent a viaduct from aging 80 years, please share... because I, too, would like to dip into the Fountain of Youth.

the fountain of youth lies in manhattan, below 96th st on the west side and below 86th st on the east side.

Oh, really? What elevated structures do the subway run on there?

i have no idea, but maybe you can explain "lenox rehab '98" too, which is located above 96th st.

I guess my sarcasm wasn't clear: there aren't any. That's why they don't need to shut down full lines in lower Manhattan like they have to here. There are no elevated structures in Manhattan that need to be so heavily rehabilitated.

i thought i got your sarcasm, but then maybe i really didn't. ("lenox rehab '98" did not have to do with elevated structures either.)

is the MTA doing the right thing? of course. but y'know what? their care does not go here half as much as it would if this were in a major money-making area.

Are you saying it would be better if the MTA did not repair the F line?

What would the livid emailer have done had the MTA notified him a week, or month, sooner? Also, what does his girlfriend's weight have to do with walking further to the subway?

Absolutely nothing. If his Girlfriend is so fucking fragile she can't walk much NYC is NOT the city you should be living in.

it means that he should have no trouble carrying that annoying little priss that can't walk in the dark by herself.

He's also completely wrong about having to take the subway "20-30 minutes in the wrong direction." How about 2 minutes, to the next stop, Church Avenue?

Or he could walk the 10 minutes to the 8th Avenue entrance to the 7th Avenue F stop, which isn't affected.

I just signed a long-term lease in the area in December about a half block from the 15th St stop, specifically b/c of its proximity to that stop. Had I known about this (I check the postings in the station; I also am new here, so would've thought the postings were fairly comprehensive, given all the signage about the new posting formats and all)...I either would've leased elsewhere, or negotiated a lower rate.

Yes, I can hop the bus to get to the next stop.
No, it's not the end of the world.

It's still a royal pain in the ass that I think was inadequately messaged to area residents that costs more than anticipated in time and money.

Well, in the summertime, when the weather is hot, uh... service supposedly will have returned.

Hah! My screen name's actually a decade-and-a-half-old misspelled reference to the "Cats" character, but your reference is better.

Oh, and yes -- fingers crossed they keep to their construction schedules. If I got women I got women on my mind, the last thing I need is to be stuck above ground walking amongst them in their summer shorts near the park.

Wait.

he should have started by writing, "i have a very fine, skinny, petite girlfriend and..."

Were all the emails you received from whiny irate transplant dooshbags who just flew in from a place where mass transit consisted of donkey-drawn carts, or was it just the one you published?

no just from sheltered homebodies who can't spell and don't know not to hit reply twice

And transplants get their replies right the first time right?

This wouldn't fly in Boston. Their transportation undertakings are announced well in advance, then last about 20 to 25 years costing billions of dollars in federal and state taxes.

Sorry no points for saying a "week's notice". The MTA publicized the plans to rehabilitate the F and G back in early 2009.

LA and Boston's subway is a joke compared to NYC's.

I don't even live remotely near the Culver line and I've known about this for over a year...

This. The impending Culver Viaduct rehab has been public knowledge for quite a while now. Sucks: yes; a week's notice: no.

They are less comprehensive but 1) reliable and 2) have always seemed to have realistic alternatives when a relied upon station / service is down.

Yeah, but they are in Boston and LA. That alone makes them far worse.

the LA subway is not reliable. unless you call one train every ten minutes (during rush hour) and no trains after 12am reliable.

because they don't have nearly as many lines as the NYC subway and they don't run 24/7. When the system isn't operating for several hours of the night they can easily reduce the strain on rush hour commuters. Ya want 24 hour service, ya gotta roll with some of the punches now and again.

What would the LA "realistic alternative" be? Drive your car?

I was referring to the main means of transpo out there (car). A section of the highway wouldn't be completely closed down with a 'sorry - see you in 5 months'.

"This cardboard box doesn't go anywhere, but it never breaks down!"