"I also never mentioned anything such as how my neighborhood was once Italian & Jewish and is now Puerto Rican - I don't know what that has to do with anything. Italians, Jews and Puerto Rican's all deserve the same things. "

Yeah, it was an example of the millions of ways the city has changed over these many years. Your attempt to make me sound like I have a hate on for Puerto Ricans is kind of funny since I'm married to one.

"The "outer boroughs" (a term I resent as NYC was consolidated way back in 1898) are supposed to have reasonable rents, the expensive stuff is suppsed to be in Manhattan. That has always been understood."

I resent the term "outer boroughs" too. It's all part of NYC. Anyway, the part about this situation always being understood is kind of silly since nothing is ever "always" anything in this city. The city is always changing. Why is this so shocking to anyone who has spent 30+ years here?

Here's your story about a kid breaking a window and other mischief that led the owner of the place to cease her sing-a-longs: http://gothamist.com/2010/08/18/parents_mad_cafe_wont_put_up_with_t.php

I'm pretty sure they're all under 21. Also, be sure to read all of the 66 comments on this story lest you think the lack of a desire to reproduce is such a rare thing in this city.

Totally agree with you about the libraries. I use the library all the time and think the closures, etc. are sad. This is one of the reasons I won't be too sad to leave. Also, cool about recycling clothes and organizing the coat drive. I'm not at all being sarcastic. I think those things are great and I commend you.

The term you were looking for is "affect".

I would appreciate everyone to stop referring to me as the miserable crazy lady.

Oh, and if you read back far enough, I believe that first nasty comment made to me personally, the one that got me all riled up in the first place was when I was told to "get a clue" by Boogie. I had never said a word to her at all before that.

I never said a bad thing bad about immigrants at all, I said my father was one and that I know a ton of them - I live in NY, so that's a given. I also never mentioned anything such as how my neighborhood was once Italian & Jewish and is now Puerto Rican - I don't know what that has to do with anything. Italians, Jews and Puerto Rican's all deserve the same things.

I never said I was poor or struggling - I own a house and a car (even though it is 20 years old, but the tires are new!) BUT the fact that so many of my NY neighbors are struggling more and more every day effects me (or affects? I can never remember...) simply because they are my neighbors. This is why I donate my daughter's clean clothing, I don't just throw it in a bin on the street and I've also organized the coat drive at work for the past 3 years.

For christ's sake, there isn't even a library within walking distance of my house. Back in the "old days" there was a library in every neighborhood - they are for everyone, not just kids. Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with that?

Hipsters are those annoying sockless people who chain their bikes to trees. Trees are not bike racks.

They also put their "art" on those wooden fences at constructions sites all the time and they see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Meanwhile, if someone else did it, it would be called vandalism.

Oh, and my moron comment was geared toward everyone who got so upset about the article in the first place - the one from the satirical newspaper.

I don't know what circles Boogie runs in, but I don't have friends who had their real estate gifted to them. Everyone I know pays regular rent. Rent that has skyrocked, btw, not only because of the rising costs of mainting these buildings, but also because people who are not from here - meaning "non-New Yorkers" are willing to pay it without question. The "outer boroughs" (a term I resent as NYC was consolidated way back in 1898) are supposed to have reasonable rents, the expensive stuff is suppsed to be in Manhattan. That has always been understood.

Many educated women have kids. It is human nature to breed, as we are all animals. The infant mortality rate has gone down so it is also probable that we no longer feel the need to breed so much because we instinctively know that it isn't necessary.

I didn't have my one child until I was in my 30's - after I had my house, etc. If I was irresponsible, I could easily jsut get knocked up again and go get public assistance, but I will not do that.

If I am xenophobic, then maybe Boogie has pedophobia? When I talk about kids, I don't mean the ones who are old enough to drink or break windows, I mean children.

The reason you don't get me is because unlike you, I do want to stay here forever. NY was wonderful and more than just a tourist trap and hopefully it will be again someday. Get a clue.

"I make under $40,000/yr and my husband was recently laid off. I am not your enemy here"

I never said you were, you were the one who chose to argue a point, which again is backed by data, held by many New Yorkers (old and new) and it seems including yourself, when you said this city has become a playground for the rich.

And that "xenophobic tendencies" totally uncalled for I never asked you or anyone to leave, if anyone is asking, or telling, anyone they should or need to leave its YOU. We've always had an influx of new New Yorkers, whether it was immigrants or transplanted Americans and it was never a problem. I don't blame new New Yorkers or transplants for the problems being faced by the middle class or working poor. I blame this administration for continuously making it harder and harder on us and catering to the city's rich. I don't think that this administration treats the lower classes evenly and that's my problem. I'm asking for fair representation from our elected officials, is that so bad?

So yes I stand on a soapbox and scream it out so hopefully my fellow New Yorkers don't make the same mistake of electing an out-of-touch billionaire to govern us again. Why does that make me a whiny, entitled native New Yorker? I experienced a better New York where everyone had a chance to make it, if they worked hard enough, and would like to see it get back to that. that's all. Everyone has a right to make their voice be heard without being dismissed as "whiny" or "entitled". Entitlement is in the eye of the beholder. I could say that you feel entitled to your co-op, vacations, car, and everything else that you mentioned because you feel you made smart choices, namely not having children in this city, so I guess everyone feels entitled to something. I feel after paying taxes here all my life I'm entitled to a city government that represents me, and millions like me as well, and not just the richest New Yorkers. Is that too much to ask for, fair representation?

You throw out a lot of names to people that don't agree with you: "whiny" "entitled," "xenophobic," "overgrown children," "hypocrite," "miserable," "crazy lady," "jealous" and to finish it off you called New York the "land of perpetual childhood." All of that in just one post. Again I ask that you not be so judgmental. Count your blessings, enjoy your life without trying to belittle or demean others with differing view points or opinions.

And I'm a little confused because in one post you talk about how wonderful your life is, all your assets and such then now you say I, "have the NERVE to disparage those of us who have had to work our ASSES off to get and stay here," that was the whole point of this argument. The whole point was how much harder its become in New York City for the middle class and working poor now. I would say YOU had "the NERVE to disparage those of us who have had to work our ASSES off to get and stay here." After all weren't you the one saying how wonderful your life has been here? Are you struggling or thriving? It can't be both, so which is it?

But like I said before you're a good debater because you turned this into an argument about personal responsibility and who doesn't agree with that, I'll agree with that. This wasn't about personal responsibility. Everyone needs to be responsible for their choices in life BUT were does that leave government? Government has a say in how we live our lives and the quality of life we live. They create the laws and determine how our taxes are being spent. Go to Manhattan and look at all the new constructions, most if not all, taxpayer subsidized. So our tax money is going to rich developers building developments that most of us cannot afford to live in, but we can't oppose that because that would make us whiny and entitled? That's just one example in many where this administration has catered to the richest and left the rest of us out to dry. No one is blaming you for that, why did you take it like that? You chose to go against what we were saying about how its gotten extremely hard for middle class and poor New Yorkers. This "crazy lady" and I were merely reflecting on a better time in this city with hopes that it can return to that. And it can return to that if we vote in the right politicians who are more in line with the struggles of the majority of NYers.

Here's the funny thing after reading all these posts it seems to me that what you're actually advocating is looking at the glass as half full instead of being half empty, which I think is great advice. I think you feel that we should all be more thankful and happy instead of whining and complaining, and I generally agree with you. Its definitely healthier for our state of mind. I usually try to practice the "half full" theory as much as possible and I do feel blessed and grateful but sometimes we have to speak on the bad issues to make things better, I'm sorry if that bothers you. If you would've said to that crazy lady, as you keep calling her, "look on the bright side it may not be easy but you're surviving in this city with a child, etc., etc." That would've been much more positive and productive than the way you went about it, telling her she shouldn't have had kids and needs to move out now and its all her fault, etc.

This wasn't personal I don't know why you made it personal. I was talking "now" and "then" in New York and you made it "I" vs "You". This isn't and never was about us, this was about New York, what it was then, what it is now, and what it can or should become. No one was attacking you, why you felt to take it personal and make it a debate about your lifestyle versus others' lifestyles, I don't know. You chose to use yourself as the example of success and vilify the lifestyle choices of this woman and millions of others who are experiencing the same struggles she is. What did you do that? What was the point?

I did not vilify her. I told her that she has no right to blame others for the consequences of her choices, which is clearly what she was doing in using terms like "morons" and "douchebags". For chrissakes, is it too much to ask an adult to be responsible for their life choices? Maybe it's like that here, but it sure in hell isn't like that where I was raised.

John, ultimately you and I agree on many, many things. I agree with getoverit that you make some super valid points in this post. This administration is completely out of control, but I'm sad to say this is just the way it is now. I can't even vote due to my immigration status, so it's especially frustrating for me. America has long prided itself on being a capitalist society, and what you see today is a result of capitalism gone wild. However, trust me when I say that Americans all over the country are dealing with similar crap. The people in charge in this country couldn't care less if the middle class gets squeezed dry. Look at what happened with EVERYONE'S 401Ks. What you're talking about is sadly a phenomenon being experienced all over the nation.

Since you mentioned all this Manhattan development, I thought I'd mention that these huge developments are everywhere in the city. I saw a number of huge ones in Brooklyn yesterday. There are also a lot of them in western Queens. Hell, even the massive housing complexes of Boricua College in the South Bronx are nearing completion (these are associated with an educational institution though, so I think it's a good thing). Just an interesting point worth sharing.

Ultimately, I measure success in happiness, not dollars. I don't have a lot of extra money these days, but have always had to be good with money, so I probably manage more easily than someone who may be new to being unemployed, etc. I have always lived my life in such a way that I never, ever spend money I don't have on things I want. If I want something, I save for it. I even paid cash for my car because I knew I didn't need it until it could be paid in full. I think that living my life this way has led me to be happier because it hugely cuts down on the stress factor.

One point about which we'll have to agree to disagree is the difficulty about moving here vs. staying here. The vast majority of native New Yorkers I've met have either had real estate "gifted" to them after their parents moved away (usually to Florida) or they still live with their parents. When I first came here, I had to pay five months rent UP FRONT because my upcoming job didn't pay as much as my landlord wanted and I had absolutely no credit history here because I'm foreign. Finding real estate if you don't make the aforementioned $200,000 and you're not from here is REALLY difficult. If you don't have a guarantor in the tri-state area, you're either screwed or you need to pay a lot up front. This doesn't even touch on the issues of adapting to a city where the lifestyle is completely different from most other parts of the world. So, yes, I have definitely struggled here to keep my head above water, but once you get the kinks worked out, it is possible to enjoy yourself here on a budget. That being said, I think the quality of life here is pretty terrible and I can't stand the general lack of civility among the residents, so I do look forward to moving out of here. It's been great while it lasted and I am grateful for ALL of the experiences I've had here (both good and bad), but there's no way I'd want to stay here forever.

For all the criticizing you did about how Boogie went about responding to crazy lady, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that crazy lady started her first posting with "hey morons" and ending that very posting with "hipster douchebags". She later went on by insulting Boogie by making the incredibly ignorant and juvenile comment about shriveled up ovaries, not to mention other insults she threw around at immigrants and Out- of -Towners...How is that positive or productive???

All I'm saying is that I think that the points that you made in your last posting are super valid, but if you want to call someone out in defense of someone else, BE FAIR!!! PEACE:)

You're absolutely right.

I don't condone the name calling on wojohowsky's part either. And to be honest I hadn't seen her first post until much later, I thought her first post was her response to Boogie Down's response to my comment. She should be ashamed of herself for that and doesn't represent my feelings or that of most native New Yorkers. I sympathize with her struggle and feel her pain but her name calling was unnecessary and wrong. So you're right but I was only going by the exchanges after my initial post and not so much choosing one young lady over the other but basing it on the validity and merits of their arguments.

To be honest I hate all the labels and classifications. I try my hardest not to call people names or classify people that I don't know. All these labels like "hipsters" I really don't even know who that is. What's a hipster and why is that so bad to some people yet others wear it as a badge of honor, I don't know. To me we're all human beings each distinctive and unique yet if you take a closer look you'll see that there's more similarities among us than differences.

"You say your husband is also a native NYer so ask him how this city has changed, he'll tell you that this change you talk about hasn't benefitted most lifelong NYers and that's not right and didn't have to be this way."

You want to know why he wants out? Because he's TIRED of living around a bunch of rude, entitled, overgrown children! Every time we leave the city he is thrilled to be around people who behave in a much more polite and civilized manner, and who don't throw their goddamned garbage everywhere like a bunch of animals.

As for the retail thing, I'll explain AGAIN. It was an EXAMPLE of a job that pays hourly because she alluded to overtime pay (something to which I am not entitled). AGAIN, I worked in retail/service for many years so for you to insinuate that I meant it in a demeaning manner is weak and ridiculous, and you know it.

Mike said it best a while back: you native New Yorkers are handed this shit on a platter (I say shit because this place is kind of terrible and I don't know why you're so hellbent on proving otherwise) and then have the NERVE to disparage those of us who have had to work our ASSES off to get and stay here. Add to that the immigrant status of many "transplants". You have NO IDEA what kind of struggle it is for many of us, yet sit there and whine about how hard you've got it! If you choose to stay here, deal with it. Again, the fact that you even have options makes you so much more FORTUNATE than the vast majority of people on the planet. Don't sit around whining on Gothamist about the "good old days" (i.e. when your xenophobic tendencies could really shine because you didn't have to deal with all those icky outsiders). Go to community board meetings, volunteer at community gardens, tutor some P.S. kids, get involved. Maybe you already do those things, in which case I commend you. If you don't do anything in your community to ensure a better quality of life for middle class New Yorkers, then you're a hypocrite.

Growing up is about flexibility and adaptation, as much as it is about making sound choices. You are NOT exempt from these things simply because you were FORTUNATE enough to be born here. I make under $40,000/yr and my husband was recently laid off. I am not your enemy here.

Anyway, I don't have time to respond to the rest of that massive post, but it seems as though all of the other posters who chimed in agree with what I'm saying. I think you are reacting the way you are because I touched a nerve, which is probably a good thing. Perhaps you never thought of yourself as being entitled before, but you certainly come across that way and maybe now you actually realize it. Your life is in your hands, John. You have choices. If you choose to stay in a place that seems to make you so miserable then you have no one to blame but yourself. Same goes with the crazy lady who flew off the handle out of apparent jealousy. YOU make your choices. YOU deal with it. It's not MY fault or the fault of anyone else who has NOTHING to do with your life situation. Remember me saying that to the crazy lady back in the beginning?: if you chose to have a child without being to afford it in this city, that it your fault, not mine. I will stand by that argument. Blaming everyone else for your problems seems to be a real trend among the overgrown children of New York. Most "adults" here behave in a manner that I would've found embarrassing when I was 18-years-old. Who the hell ever told you guys that you don't need to take responsibility for your actions? Remember her mentioning her friend who's 36 and still living with his mom? Well, sadly, based on my experience, this doesn't seem to be all that uncommon among people who grew up here. It's like the land of perpetual childhood in these parts.

Leaving New York is not admitting defeat. I know you never said so much, but I have a strong suspicion that you subscribe to this ridiculous mentality that is held by many a native New Yorker.

I really resent when new or transplanted New Yorkers tell native New Yorkers that they have to leave or move out of their hometown to make room for new, and improved, New Yorkers.

I often say that I miss the good old days in New York and people sometimes look at me as if I was crazy, and I understand those sentiments but I wish they could understand mine. Recently on another story here one newly transplanted New York asked me:

I continue to be amazed by the extent to which "native New Yorkers" glamorize and feel acute nostalgia for violent crime and criminals.

Are you all just not that smart or what?

I guess it's because we survived it. We lived in this city when it was a hellhole and made it in one piece. That wasn't an easy feat growing up in the "bad old days" of New York City. It's like soldiers bragging about old war wounds or battle scars, it's not that they liked it or enjoyed it, it's the fact that they survived it. NYC was tough and to be a NYer meant you were tough and resilient, to a certain extent. Now NY has become the playground of the wealthy and I guess now to live in NY means you're just wealthy. And let me remind you that the reason that people all over the world wanted or want to come to New York is due in no small part due to the native NYers who kept it alive during the worst of times.

And I think native NYers resent the fact that after staying here and keeping NY's torch lit by working and paying taxes, even when others wouldn't even visit here because of fear, now that times are better too many natives can't even enjoy it because we're being forced out to make room for out-of-towners with wealthy parents.

Gentrification hasn't benefitted most Native New Yorkers. Most native NYers learned to live and survive in NY, despite the crime, but we can't "learn" to pay $3,000 for a studio apartment.

So it's not about being smart or not, it's that as life long NYers we feel we helped build this city and feel we have a stake in it but now that it's become a much more livable place many of us are getting priced out of our hometown.

Most new New Yorkers are here by choice but I wonder how they would feel if after building their hometown up to whatever it is today they had to leave and their parents wouldn't be able to afford to retire in the city they helped build, with their blood, sweat and tears, because now that things are better out-of-towners came and drove up the prices of rents and properties.

This city has always been a melting pot with people from all over the world coming here and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone owns this city and I'm not mad at the new New Yorkers in fact I welcome their contributions, energy, innovation and vibrancy they bring to this city. I blame it on the administrations, especially Bloomberg's, that it seems has made it a priority to squeeze the poorest NYers out of this city. And when I say poorest NYers I'm not just talking about minimum wage earners, I'm talking about small business owners, mom and pop stores, factory owners, etc. All the businesses that didn't get subsidies while Wall Street got millions from the city. All the Mom and Pop stores that had to shut their doors so yet another Starbucks could take its place. Slowly but surely NY is losing all the things that made it great and is becoming like any other city. You take a stroll through the city and you're bound to run into the same franchises over and over again. That's not how New York was a few years ago, that's not what made it the great city that it is, or was.

===================================

Native New Yorkers helped build this city and should never be told to leave their homes and friends and families to make room for newcomers. Just like Native New Yorkers shouldn't tell newcomers to leave either. This is a large city and we can all coexist just like we always have. The biggest burden on poor New Yorkers is housing and the current administration seems very interested in developing as many taxpayer subsidized high priced condos and co-ops as possible with very little housing for the middle class and working poor. I understand that as a business move its very shrewd to accomodate as many rich people as possible to increase the tax revenue and that benefits even poor New Yorkers but they should also make it a priority to accomodate the middle class and working poor too, even if it's not in Manhattan. There's many areas in the outer boroughs that can be developed for these purposes. NYC is home to 650,000 millionaires , as of 2009, that's 18.7% higher than in 2008, that's great for business but New York City wasn't always just a business. I place the blame squarely on Bloomberg and his anti-poor initiatives, his policies are driving away native New Yorkers and it's wrong. Bloomberg didn't grow up in this city so he'll never understand.

As a native NYer I don't even like to hear when people tell others "go back where you came from" but at least that has some logic to it but as Native NYers where they hell are we going to go? This is our home, not a stop on our life's journey. This where we grew up, where all our family and friends are. I can't leave, all I can do is stay and try to survive and work diligently so our next mayor and other politicians are truly representative of New York and respects all New Yorkers' interests. There was no way that a billionaire could ever empathize with most New Yorkers, that was our mistake. I never voted for Bloomberg because I knew that no matter how hard he tried there was no way that he could empathize with most New Yorkers, a millionaire maybe a billionaire. the 17th richest man in the world ? No way. While most New Yorkers are trying to find a way to scrape by he's thinking about offshore accounts and tax loopholes, that's not even a shot at him it's just reality. Our next mayor needs to be someone more like us, all of us.

Hey, you can't always get exactly what you desire. Life is just as much about being flexible as it is about making well-considered choices.

headline: "commenters brawl over the onion, a comedic newspaper."

Boogie, I have to say I'm with you on your arguments against wojohwsky. I'm a mother of two and live in one of the five boroughs of NYC and my husband is the sole provider for our family. Its not easy and we live from week to week, and we have complaints about the city as well, but to attack others verbally in the manner that wojohwsky did is ridiculous. There are pros and cons to anyplace in which you choose to live, but if you choose to focus only on the cons that's your problem. And for the record Boogie, even though I'm a mom, I am in no way offended by the fact that you don't like kids, or that you choose not to have any. Hell, there have been kids that I've come across in life that I didn't like either! And your choice for not having children for what ever reason, is exactly that, YOUR CHOICE! and does not deserve to be judged. I'm not big on judging anyway but I'm only human and based of wojohwsky's comments, I just can't help myself this time. She comes off as really being one miserable human being, I kinda feel sorry for her.

Thanks :)

NYC was born from its location as a hub for manufacturing, industry, commerce, etc.

After all the manufacturing and industry left, what remained was cultural, arts, tourism, and wall street.

Wall Street is being forced out, and lets face it its all electronic now. They could just as easily set up a data center anywhere in the world.

They would prefer not to, because they love partying here _because of_ the critical mass of the arts, bars, restaurants, etc.

But, there is a breaking point where the big firms will move away.

And can NYC really support itself just on tourism and hipster artists? And would you really want to stick around to find out?

"I would rather stay and try to make it better for everyone then just say the hell with it and leave. "

Then that's the CHOICE you've made. You must deal with the consequences, rather than getting angry at people who have more disposable income and seem more "optimistic" because they've made different CHOICES. Frankly, I just don't really get you.

To think I started this whole thing by saying "And even that $200k salary just means you'll get by after taxes, rent, food, misc expenses."

You chose to counter that by telling us how wonderful your life is making substantially less than money and how that was due to your savvy investment skills and the fact that you own and don't rent and have low maintenance fees. As I read all of that I said, "good for you!" and not in a sarcastic tone. I'm genuinely happy when someone is doing good and happy with their lives. But let's be honest that's not every New Yorker's reality, it may be your reality but most New Yorkers are struggling. I'm not making this up, this is a fact, here are some studies or reports to confirm it:

Color of Law: New York, City of the Poor

http://www.laprogressive.com/political-issues/new-york-city-of-the-poor/

N.Y.C. so costly you need to earn six figures to make middle class

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/05/2009-02-05_nyc_so_costly_you_need_to_earn_six_figur.html#ixzz0yZnYg98t

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/05/2009-02-05_nyc_so_costly_you_need_to_earn_six_figur.html

It's the cost of living, stupid: 58,000 pages of rules and regs make everything in N.Y. expensive

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/04/13/2010-04-13_its_the_cost_of_living_stupid_58000_pages_of_rules_and_regs_make_everything_in_n.html#ixzz0yZgwoIvH

DOES $200,000 MAKE YOU RICH? NOT IN NEW YORK

http://trueslant.com/claudiadeutsch/2010/02/02/does-200000-make-you-rich-not-in-new-york/

HIGH COST OF LIVING DRIVES NEW YORK’S FISCAL DEFICIT WITH WASHINGTON

http://www.newgeography.com/content/001728-high-cost-living-drives-new-york’s-fiscal-deficit-with-washington

Paying the Price for Living in New York

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/iotw/20071022/200/2326

New York City Workers Are Not the Nation’s Best Paid

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2010/06/16/new-york-workers-are-not-the-nations-best-paid/

The Poorest Place in America

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0806em.html

NYC tops the list of America’s costliest cities

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34448677/

I can find a thousand of those studies or reports so please understand that these are not myths and that every New Yorker struggling is not just the result of bad decision making. I don't know why it seems that people that make it out of poverty always seem to be the ones who are the hardest on the poor. I without a doubt believe that you are a rational and smart person and that reflects on your standard of living but there's also life circumstances beyond most of our control and that has some bearing on your circumstances too. I understand you must've went through a lot as a child but as a grown up it seems you've been blessed to a certain degree and I hope you acknowledge and appreciate that. The best way for you to show your appreciation and gratitude would be not to kick sand on those that have been less fortunate for whatever reason that might be. If it does come down to choices then be grateful that you are indeed smarter than millions of others that would be better than knocking them for not being dumb, or at least as smart as you.

But even still I was happy to hear that someone was doing well in this city. I didn't mind hearing about the choices you made because maybe I or others can learn from them and I like to hear success stories. But then when you started saying things like, "If you can't afford to have kids in this city and you chose to do so (or didn't move to a more affordable city), that is your fault, not mine. There's such a thing as birth control, you know" that's when you lost me.

As a native New Yorker I can relate to what wojohowsky is saying. I haven't lived in another country so I can't relate to much of what you are saying. Frankly I find it that you're comparing apples to oranges. I think poverty is relative to where you live. The federal poverty line for a family of two is $14.570, that would be a King's ransom in most countries but does that mean that couple or single parent making $15,000 is not poor in this country? So the comparisons between the poverty you've seen in other countries with the poverty here in the U.S. are duly noted but not valid for the purposes of this argument. Wojohowsky and I, we're comparing the New York of today with the New York of the past, and to a larger extent with other major cities in the U.S. Look up at some of the studies I pointed out above, you'll see the comparisons and you'll see it's not just two idiots on the internet mad at life, it's reality proven by data.

I don't wish anything bad upon you but just remember that life giveth and life taketh away and God forbid but all it takes is one tragedy and your life can change overnight just like that. Keep being happy, keep enjoying life, keep enjoying your blessings just please don't look down on others, don't tell others they have to leave their homes, that they should've had abortions, etc. Like I said earlier, I loved to hear about your success story but when you started pointing fingers at others and blaming them for their misfortunes I stopped cheering for you.

And to be fair wojohowsky I'm with you on the New York thing 100% but the "shriveled up ovaries" thing wasn't nice.

Yeah, life has given and taken from me many times over. That's my business to deal with, not something I unleash on complete strangers on the internet. That's because I'm a grown up.

John, if you take a look back to how this all began, you will see that this bitter woman came out cursing at me for absolutely no reason, unless you consider apparent jealousy a valid excuse for such behavior. Why on Earth she would take my words about living on a budget in the city to heart the way she did is completely beyond me. By defending her, you are defending irrationality.

When did I mention abortion? Oh, that's right, not a single time. Also, since you want to bring up apples and oranges, somehow me referring to living in a Manhattan rental at my salary as living beyond your means turned into me saying that people who have children in NYC are living beyond their means. I never ONCE said any such thing, yet those words were put in my mouth a couple of times.

Like I said, native New Yorkers like you and this woman who genuinely seem perplexed by changes in this ever-changing city baffle me. This city has been in a constant state of flux since long before you two came on the scene. I think you just feel like you're entitled to have New York stay exactly the way it was when you were growing up here. I've always said that New York is not a good place for people who can't handle changes. Frankly, I find it odd that the people who bitch the most loudly about changes in this always changing city are the ones who've spent their whole lives. I'd think you'd be used to it by now. Are you one of the people who feel that leaving New York is somehow admitting defeat?

Finally, I never once told her to leave her home. The point was that people here in this country are so freakin' fortunate in that they have options (but, yeah, I'M the one who seems unappreciative, right?). No one is stopping her from leaving. Likewise, no one is saying she can't stay. But to be so obviously pissed off with the consequences of the CHOICES (again, something that doesn't even exist for most people in the world) she has made in her life that she would start a fight by cursing at a complete stranger is ludicrous. She can do whatever the hell she wants, but she really shouldn't blame other people when the CHOICES she's made have led to a seemingly miserable existence. That's why I told her repeatedly to grow up. Behaving in this manner is befitting of a seven-year-old who has a tendency to throw temper tantrums when they don't get every little thing they want. She should be ashamed of herself for behaving like such a child.

I disagree.

You said:

Oh, please. I make NOWHERE near that and I enjoy a lot of things about the city. I regularly go out to eat in all boroughs (except SI, just because of the distance), go to bars with friends, visit museums, go to performances (dance, concerts, opera, etc.), and even manage to do a hell of a lot of traveling and own a car. Sure, if you insist on living beyond your means (e.g. Manhattan rental when you can't afford it), then you're probably going to have a hard time. My husband and I have no kids and enjoy low co-op maintenance fees (ah, the benefits of investing), so our life is very comfortable, despite the fact that we have a combined income far south of what you mentioned here.

The fact of the matter is that the quality of life has gone down substantially for most New Yorkers and that's backed up by the data I provided above and that's not just due to personal choices. To a newly transplanted NYer it may seem like it's always been like this but I can tell you it wasn't. You mentioned that your husband, who's lived here 40 years is also thinking of leaving this city, so I'm sure he can relate to what we're saying. Change is fine, and yes as NYers we're accustomed to it but change can be good or bad. And many lifelong NYers feel that New York has changed in a negative way, don't be mad at us for that.

Frankly, I don't want to take sides in this personal argument because I don't think these discussions should ever get personal. We can go back and forth all day without resorting to name calling but in all fairness let's do a blow by blow.

First, I mentioned that even $200k a year is not enough in this city, you posted the above comment then wojohowsky retorted with her reality as a parent raising a family in this city, I don't see where she attacked you or said you weren't smart or anything of the sort. So you stated your reality of living in this city and she stated hers and ended it by saying "don't assume people are living beyond their means and that it's their own fault, that's so fucking insulting," I don't think she called you any names she said your idea was "fucking insulting" to her and other struggling NYers. I don't consider that a personal attack on you. Then you responded with a very elitist statement:

Also, there's no overtime in the type of work I do. I'm a salaried employee, not working in some retail job. There are plenty of us in this city with lots of education and enjoyable careers who aren't making huge salaries.

If you can't afford to have kids in this city and you chose to do so (or didn't move to a more affordable city), that is your fault, not mine. There's such a thing as birth control, you know.

After that everything just went downhill but please don't try to make yourself out to be a victim because from your very first comment you were gloating and yes insulting to anyone who might not be as perfect as you. Then wojohowsky explained to you what she goes through as a NYer with a child and you so eloquently dismissed her and insinuated that she must work as a retail worker, probably doesn't have "lots of education," a bad decision maker and dumb for not knowing how birth control works. I mean seriously what did you expect after that? There's more than one way to say "Fuck You" to someone, you certainly made it pretty but in essence that's what you were saying to her and anyone like her.

And no you didn't mention the word abortion but what if this women got pregnant by accident despite using birth control, we don't know, should she have gotten an abortion? Should every woman in NYC who isn't well-to-do have an abortion or get on the next plane out of the city? Really? If you, despite all your meticulous planning became pregnant would you automatically run to the abortion clinic? You don't have to answer that but please respect that some women's beliefs will not allow that and therefore that is not an option for them. We all should respect that especially if she works, only has one child and isn't asking anyone for a handout.

This really didn't need to go so far. You could've stated what your experience living in NYC without a child was like and she could've stated what her experience was like with a child then others could've given their testimonies of their experience in NYC but when you chose to make an example of her and her CHOICES and belittle her and anyone like her, I guess it got personal.

In closing let me say this, Boogie Down you're obviously very articulate and have great debating skills and unfortunately wojohowsky may have played into your hand. You didn't curse but said so many hurtful things to her, albeit in a "nice" way and therefore now claim that she attacked you and cursed at you. But let's look at some of the things you said.

"You are an idiot"

"crazy lady. You've reinforced a lot of stereotypes about miserable, irrational parents in NYC. You don't live in Park Slope by any chance, do you? I feel sorry for your kid. I hope she beats the odds and doesn't turn into an angry, irrational, entitled ignoramus like her mother"

"the mother of this loser sounds like as much of an idiot as you. I'm not at all surprised you two are friends."

"Quit being such an entitled crybaby"

"people who resent their children (as this woman seem to)"

"this bitter woman came out cursing at me for absolutely no reason"

"CHOICES she's made have led to a seemingly miserable existence. That's why I told her repeatedly to grow up. Behaving in this manner is befitting of a seven-year-old who has a tendency to throw temper tantrums when they don't get every little thing they want. She should be ashamed of herself for behaving like such a child."

That's aside from the previously mentioned insulting insinuations you made about her and others like her. So no you didn't curse but you certainly insulted and belittled her.

And I don't think her beef was with you or her own child, as you insinuated (that's so disrespectful), her problem is with the administration in NYC that has catered to the rich and let the poor and middle class out to dry, which you yourself admit to being true. Why you took it as a personal insult and decided to make an example of her I don't know, like I said it seemed to me like she was just reporting her experience in NYC. She wasn't mad at you for living "the good life" and not helping her, she isn't asking for assistance, but it seems she was insulted with your attitude towards anyone not as perfect as you and resented you for scolding her about her life CHOICES. I still don't understand what made you feel the need to chastise her for simply telling us how hard it is for a working family in NYC.

You say your husband is also a native NYer so ask him how this city has changed, he'll tell you that this change you talk about hasn't benefitted most lifelong NYers and that's not right and didn't have to be this way. This administration has gone out of its way to hurt the poor and middle class in this city and drive them out and we have a right to be upset about that, whether you like it or not. If not taking the screwing with a smile and getting on the next bus out of the city seems like we're whining and irresponsible then so be it, but you shouldn't be so judgmental.

"You say your husband is also a native NYer so ask him how this city has changed, he'll tell you that this change you talk about hasn't benefitted most lifelong NYers and that's not right and didn't have to be this way."

You want to know why he wants out? Because he's TIRED of living around a bunch of rude, entitled, overgrown children! Every time we leave the city he is thrilled to be around people who behave in a much more polite and civilized manner, and who don't throw their goddamned garbage everywhere like a bunch of animals.

As for the retail thing, I'll explain AGAIN. It was an EXAMPLE of a job that pays hourly because she alluded to overtime pay (something to which I am not entitled). AGAIN, I worked in retail/service for many years so for you to insinuate that I meant it in a demeaning manner is weak and ridiculous, and you know it.

Mike said it best a while back: you native New Yorkers are handed this shit on a platter (I say shit because this place is kind of terrible and I don't know why you're so hellbent on proving otherwise) and then have the NERVE to disparage those of us who have had to work our ASSES off to get and stay here. Add to that the immigrant status of many "transplants". You have NO IDEA what kind of struggle it is for many of us, yet sit there and whine about how hard you've got it! If you choose to stay here, deal with it. Again, the fact that you even have options makes you so much more FORTUNATE than the vast majority of people on the planet. Don't sit around whining on Gothamist about the "good old days" (i.e. when your xenophobic tendencies could really shine because you didn't have to deal with all those icky outsiders). Go to community board meetings, volunteer at community gardens, tutor some P.S. kids, get involved. Maybe you already do those things, in which case I commend you. If you don't do anything in your community to ensure a better quality of life for middle class New Yorkers, then you're a hypocrite.

Growing up is about flexibility and adaptation, as much as it is about making sound choices. You are NOT exempt from these things simply because you were FORTUNATE enough to be born here. I make under $40,000/yr and my husband was recently laid off. I am not your enemy here.

Anyway, I don't have time to respond to the rest of that massive post, but it seems as though all of the other posters who chimed in agree with what I'm saying. I think you are reacting the way you are because I touched a nerve, which is probably a good thing. Perhaps you never thought of yourself as being entitled before, but you certainly come across that way and maybe now you actually realize it. Your life is in your hands, John. You have choices. If you choose to stay in a place that seems to make you so miserable then you have no one to blame but yourself. Same goes with the crazy lady who flew off the handle out of apparent jealousy. YOU make your choices. YOU deal with it. It's not MY fault or the fault of anyone else who has NOTHING to do with your life situation. Remember me saying that to the crazy lady back in the beginning?: if you chose to have a child without being to afford it in this city, that it your fault, not mine. I will stand by that argument. Blaming everyone else for your problems seems to be a real trend among the overgrown children of New York. Most "adults" here behave in a manner that I would've found embarrassing when I was 18-years-old. Who the hell ever told you guys that you don't need to take responsibility for your actions? Remember her mentioning her friend who's 36 and still living with his mom? Well, sadly, based on my experience, this doesn't seem to be all that uncommon among people who grew up here. It's like the land of perpetual childhood in these parts.

Leaving New York is not admitting defeat. I know you never said so much, but I have a strong suspicion that you subscribe to this ridiculous mentality that is held by many a native New Yorker.

I would rather stay and try to make it better for everyone then just say the hell with it and leave.

And yes, living in NY does make us special, that's why there are so many people here and that's why they keep coming.

Oh man they nailed it! You can tell just by the comments on this article. Everyone trying to defend living in a tumor like nyc by saying 'move back to wisconsin onion' In the end, thats the only retort you can make: pretending just saying "i live in New York' somehow makes you special.