May Has Seen At Least Two Carriage Horse Crashes

Ian McKeever and a host of other carriage drivers were yacking as usual on cell phones in Central Park, while a very busy NYRR race was going on. People and trucks and speakers were everywhere.

These jerks might want to at least keep their eyes on the road so that they might be able to deal with every eventuality, including the possibility of a spooked horse.

Mikkeleen - i've about had it with you. You are a liar and an a*s H**e Everyone knows you are a carriage driver so how "objective" can you be. You exploit these horses to make money. Lies, lies, lies. The pictorial dictionary for "liar" has your face as its image. Lol LoL

You fail to answer any questions about the industry's superior record. You did not acknowledge that your colleagues cheat. Do you also cheat? I see, that is why you ignored the question.

You think that by listing horses who need to be rescued that some how it will "shame" people who are against you. Sweetheart, they are much smarter than that.

Oh wait. I saw some of the NYC carriage horses on that list. What ... you are actually rescuing your own horses!!! OMG. West Side Livery throws them away and you rescue them?! Ah - so that is where Ian's horses went. Too funny. You are a scream. I have to go now. I am LMAO.

The people in the carriage horse business are hardly providing a horse rescue service. They buy those carriage horses from kill auctions, work them hard for a few years, and then sell them again. In fact, one carriage horse stable owner was even arrested on charges of trying to bribe an inspector to overlook the violations at his stable.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/12/14/2007-12-14_stables_owner_saddled_in_bribe_rap.html

"Yes, our practices ARE acceptable and desirable."

That's very persuasive. . .

No one should blindly accept at face value the claims made by someone whose livelihood depends on the very industry being criticized, particularly when those claims are unsupported. I already asked you to elaborate upon your claim that the industry has a stellar safety record, twice. You've yet to directly address this. You are an industry lackey to the extent you continue to present false dilemmas, make blanket claims, and to not provide any factual support for what you're saying, in the service of an absolute defense of the horse carriage industry as a whole. Owning a carriage and two horses does not change that.

So, Michaleen, reckless overbreeding and the resultant "perfect storm" of neglect is a rationale for endangering the NYC carraiges horses and the public with a silly and irrelevant industry?

also, in nearly 90% of horse spooking accidents, a human is injured.

Our elected government officials would do well to consider the legal implications they will be facing.

Dangerous - can you help any of these horses? They have until 4pm today.

michaleen is a horse carriage industry lackey who is apparently incapable of injecting any substance into this debate and resorts to presenting false dilemmas in an attempt to make the horse carriage industry's practices appear acceptable, even desirable.

This person's weak defense of the industry is symptomatic of the fact that it does not have lasting power.

Ah, Bodega - feeling ignored and left out? lol I knew the ad hominem attacks were on the way...

"Lackey"? I think not. My husband and I have been in the industry for 30 years, we own a carriage and two horses.

"False dilemma"? Nah. Horses need jobs, period. Unwanted horses go to slaughter, period.

Yes, our practices ARE acceptable and desirable.

No "lasting power"? LOL, that's what politicians and C-list celebrities like David Dinkins, Allen Dreyfoos, Carolyn Maloney, Tony Avella, Mary Tyler Moore, Kim Basinger, Alec Baldwin, Peggy Parker, (etc etc ad nauseum) thought, and guess what?

They're all gone, and we're still here.

Been here since 1857, and will be here long after you are dust.

Now - did you contact that horse rescue and donate $10 to help make a real difference int he life of a horse?

Whatever. Keep beating that dead horse.

Hey D-Bag..... no, nobody on a stupid internet blog is gonna buy your horses.... can it already. Go find a legitimate horse buyer, or release them into the wild, or glue-em up, and start fighting for unnecessary breeding of these animals if you care so much about them.

In the meantime, get these thousand pound retards out of midtown and in open sprawing fields or racetracks where they belong.

Poor jles, I can see both your linear and critical thinking skills are impaired.

1) They are not my horses

2) You needn't "buy" them, you can sponsor them through the horse rescue agency

3) The wild horses that are already in this country are under intense pressure from the BLM and ranchers, they are being rounded up and sold, they are on the verge of disappearing.

4) Over 1000 horses have died on racetracks in the US in the last year, and thoroughbreds make up the largest # of horses that end up going to slaughter

5) The horses were in Midtown before you were, and will be here long after you are gone.

Anything else I can help you with?

3 and everything else you've been saying don't logically align (maybe this is my lack of critical thinking skills...nice diagnosis Dr. Horsetoucher). If they're being rounded up and sold by ranchers....then give these frickin horses your crying over to ranchers! You make it sound like there is a market SOMEWHERE.... but i doubt it's on this blog!

5) not if I have anything to do with it.

anything ELSE!? PAH! Seriously... who have you helped? You're talking to a message board!

In addition to your thinking skills, I see also now that your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. You are in dire need of guidance and instruction, here, allow me:

1) The "ranchers" are cattle ranchers, who want the federal land the wild horses are on for their cattle. They don't want horses.

2) Configuring logical alignment would fall under linear thinking skills, not critical thinking skills.

3) You are also talking to a message board. lol

HTH.

15 horses remain in the feedlot at Camelot. Won't you give one of these beautiful horses a forever home? Please call Frank, in the morning at 1-609-448-5225.

End of day update from Camelot. (kill buyers)

The following 15 horses are AVAILABLE:

#129 Gelding Smoke Gray 5 yrs $275.... See More

#131 STB gelding 2yrs reg $250. (So sweet! A nuzzler!)

#134 STB mare bay 12 yrs $325.

#135 Mare dapple gray 16hh 10 yrs $450.

#137 Arab X or Morgan type gelding blood bay aged $300.

#139 Hafflinger Mare 5 yrs $360.

#140 Pinto gelding white/sorrel 10 yrs $425.

#142 Paint gelding sorrel/white reg 4 yrs $450.

#144 Arab/Warmblood Cross mare bay 10 yrs $600.

#147 Gelding chestnut 6yrs $350.

#149 STB mare black 10 yrs $500.

#150 QH mare bay 4 yrs $425.

#166 Mare seal black 6/7 yrs $225.

#175 Pinto mare black/white 4 yrs $225. (Pretty girl trying to get attention...and help out of there.)

#178 QH mare bay $400.

#1's:

#157 Gelding chestnut 16.2h reg $700.

To all the hand-wringing do-gooders who are so sure of where horses belong or what they should be doing....here is a horse (one of MANY() that WISHES it were a NYC carriage horse.

She's a kill-pen horse, and the deadline is 4pm today.

Who among you can buy her, keep her, and give her a good home for the rest of her natural life?

::crickets chirping in the deafening silence:::

Thought so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJIJT6mzXeg

You keep presenting this as the only alternative for helping horses that are sold for slaughter, but it's not. I am more than willing to donate time and money to an organization that cares for unwanted horses, and to developing organizations that would work on this issue.

So are you going to get into specifics about how the horse carriage industry's safety record is stellar, or am I to take your silence on that question as a sign that you don't have anything to support that claim?

Justsaying - wow, you are a genius LOL, you figured out all by yourself that I am in the industry? I have posted on Gothamist many times, and never hid that fact lol, so good on ya that you gleaned the obvious!

The people in the carriage horse business are hardly providing a horse rescue service. They buy those carriage horses from kill auctions, work them hard for a few years, and then sell them again. In fact, one carriage horse stable owner was even arrested on charges of trying to bribe an inspector to overlook the violations at his stable.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/12/14/2007-12-14_stables_owner_saddled_in_bribe_rap.html

Thanks. You're quite the genius yourself.

But you still didn't answer my question. Are you still overcharging tourists who don't know any better?

Michaleen,

What does it matter that a taxi rear-ended a carriage--I rest my case. Hello--anyone home? There is no room in NYC for these 19th-century conveyances. There is no way to make this industry safe for the horses. We know that horses spook easily; a rustling of leaves, an opening of an umbrella, a drumbeat--these are only a few of the things that can cause a horse to spook. Spotty and Smoothie are the more recent victims of spooking accident, may they rest in peace.

Christine Quinn is a crook and slush-fund princess. Watch this space. she will get what she deserves.

Michaeleen Flynn, (and I know your real name but I won't say it here), please do the world a favor and stop cutting and pasting your erroneous drivel about "a perfect storm." The perfect storm is the cycle of abuse that comes from irresponsible overbreeding and dumping of horses at auctions, such as New Holland, where NYC carriage horses have been rescued by some of our own activists. These horses were headed for gruesome slaughter.

And another thing--thank goodness that these horses had I.D. numbers engraved in their hooves. (Sometimes you drivers file off the numbers). The insanely stupid "microchip" idea is pure nonsense. I'm sure at the "slaughter" auctions, the castaway horses are not going to be scanned for a microchip.

END THIS CRUELTY PLEASE. PITY THOSE HORSES WHO END UP WITH A NAIL SHOT ON THEIR FOREHEADS AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE.

OK, let's do this the easy way:

1) Sexisicilian, jles, militza,green, and cameraclub: The epidemic of abandoned horses across the country is due to what is being called a “perfect storm” of a slow economy, highfeed prices, & mortgage foreclosures. This is a mammoth crisis - 1000s of horses being left to waste away in fields & paddocks, surrendered to over-crowded rescues, or shipped to slaughter. Closing down a business where horses lead content & exceedingly reasonable existences will only ADD to this problem.

The hundreds of thousands of horses whose owners can no longer afford them - these horses were kept as pets or for pleasure. A horse with a JOB is helping to earn it's own keep; a horse with a viable job will be the LAST horse to feel the recession.

As you can see, anyone who wants to take jobs away from horses is NO FRIEND TO THE HORSE.

Anybody hell-bent on putting carriages out of business should hop on down to the auction & buy a slaughter-bound horse and care for it for the rest of its natural life. Put your money where your mouth is, trade in your keyboard jockey bullcrap for some real work to make a difference.

2) ChristineQuinnsSlush - you had better be very careful who you decide to slander online.

3) Nicemarmot and inyourider - take a look at this pic - it *IS* inside the park. Traffic is allowed in the Park M-F, when was the last time you were there?

4) Edita and Donny - shaddap and siddown, you lost. LOL

To everyone else: This taxi rearended a carriage inside the park in broad daylight - let's blame the victim, yeah!

If this were a picture of a dog who got hit by a car, do we ban dogs in the city? What about an old lady? A baby carriage? The carriage industry has a STELLAR safety record. Kneejerk chicken littles hollering "do away with them!" are engaging in the worst type of baby/bathwater sophistry - AND hurting horses and people in the end.

Wake up and grow up.

Now let me guess. Could you be a carriage horse driver and/or owner? So why are you whining here about the "epidemic of abandoned horses?" The unfortunate glut of horses now means that you've been able to purchase better-quality cheap horses from the notorious New Holland, PA Horse Auction. I've noticed that your horses have recently improved somewhat over the poor, broken-down creatures you were buying some years ago. Now I know why.

BTW - are the carriage drivers still ripping off clueless tourists?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/taken_for_ride_TtM1wU97tnbyWZt4sCXBgO#ixzz0WxNlgTPR

Since you've been in the horse carriage business for over 27 years, can you provide any data to support your claim that the industry has a "STELLAR" safety record? And stellar within what context, exactly? Without anything to hold up the industry's safety record to, saying it has a stellar record is meaningless.

Why does the ASPCA allow lawmakers, carriage operators and even a Franciscan monk to (falsely) suggest that the ASPCA supports the use of carriages in NYC? By providing political cover to lawmakers, the ASPCA helps to condemn carriage horses to a life of dodging cars and living in warehouses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWz6s6r5f4

Donny - why do washed-up stand-up comics lie and make ersatz "documentaries" (giggle) by exploiting and piggy backing on our horses?

Why do they run out of horse association meetings in NJ when they are exposed for the liars they are?

Hmmm, so many questions....LOL

CRUEL! ban this horrible practice, it's not safe for the animals or people around them

My family has horses (in large fields where they belong)—Horses DO NOT BELONG on the streets of NYC. They work 7 days a week in super hot/cold weather all to make some man rich. I was looking at a horse and the guy told me "watch out it will bite you", evil greedy man.

Dear tourists, you are contributing to suffering every time you take a ride in the horse drawn carriages. Dear NYCers educate the tourists as to why they should skip this cruelty.

Also, the park would not smell like horse shit.

green - you have horses, yet the smell of manure offends you?

LOL, you guys are so easy to expose.

I would like to see more horse-drawn carriages on the Williamsburg Bridge bike path.

And of course the 2nd party in the accident is a cab.

Hi, Jen

This is Edita Birnkrant, the person quoted as saying "There is simply no way to make the industry in New York City healthy and humane for horses. It just simply can't be done." The group I work for is called Friends of Animals, not Friends and Animals. I'm the NY Director.

Many thanks!

Edita

www.friendsofanimals.org

Hi Edita - can you help some horses that aren't as lucky as our carriage horses?

15 horses remain in the feedlot at Camelot. Won't you give one of these beautiful horses a forever home? Please call Frank, in the morning at 1-609-448-5225.

End of day update from Camelot. (kill buyers)

The following 15 horses are AVAILABLE:

#129 Gelding Smoke Gray 5 yrs $275.... See More

#131 STB gelding 2yrs reg $250. (So sweet! A nuzzler!)

#134 STB mare bay 12 yrs $325.

#135 Mare dapple gray 16hh 10 yrs $450.

#137 Arab X or Morgan type gelding blood bay aged $300.

#139 Hafflinger Mare 5 yrs $360.

#140 Pinto gelding white/sorrel 10 yrs $425.

#142 Paint gelding sorrel/white reg 4 yrs $450.

#144 Arab/Warmblood Cross mare bay 10 yrs $600.

#147 Gelding chestnut 6yrs $350.

#149 STB mare black 10 yrs $500.

#150 QH mare bay 4 yrs $425.

#166 Mare seal black 6/7 yrs $225.

#175 Pinto mare black/white 4 yrs $225. (Pretty girl trying to get attention...and help out of there.)

#178 QH mare bay $400.

#1's:

#157 Gelding chestnut 16.2h reg $700.

Where is Camelot? One of my friends in Iowa was thinking of getting a horse as she used to be a professional show rider and is starting to get back into it after a hiatus. I can at least suggest it if you have a link?

Edita,

Dead Himmler is an angry TeaBagging troll. Ignore him.

Thank you for all that you do. Farm animals do not belong on the streets of Manhattan.

I hate the teabaggers and I am not angry. It's funny that when you disagree with someone you call them a troll. Just to let you know there are other opinions out there.

My apologies. I must have mistaken you for someone else.

Horses are working animals and enjoy the industry. They get depressed just hanging out in the pasture before the glue factory. Please get a real job with a worthy cause.

Perfectly stated, Himmler, thank you :-)

Wait, do you consider your defrauding the MTA as a real job with a worthy cause - or is it your moving company that's your noble endeavour?

Let's make sure we place the blame where it really should be... the month of May.

LMAO

The horse traffic should be immediately cut to inside the park only.

Can we please just put a stop to this? It would be one thing if the horses were INSIDE the park, but forcing them to work around cars and trucks non-stop is just cruel. Horses and cars do not mix well.

The horses ARE inside the park, that's where this taxi hit the carriage.

Do you even live in NY? lol

"There is simply no way to make the industry in New York City healthy and humane for horses. It just simply can't be done."

agreed.

I say let the humans suffer and just have those rickshaw dudes transporting people around. heehee.

I just have this one comment and then I out the door folks:

Do you know that Christine Quinn grandfathered all the window dressings reforms so that are not in effect? Example. only new carriage drivers effective last week are required to have driver licenses. Meaning that all the existing carriage drivers (140+) have No driver licenses. All pedicab drivers and of course taxi drivers are REQUIRED to have a driver license. The reason is that most of these carriage drivers are illegal Mexicans, Turkish, etc that can"t obtain driver licenses. So they are in the middle of hot spots like time square unlicensed.

And they claim to be union but it is not a real union. there is no set wages or benefit for the carriage drivers. The stable owners probably kicked money to Demo Demopoulos of Teamsters local 553 to protect their corruption and animal abuse. if this is a real union then why doesn't Demo D. demand fair wages for all the carriage drivers including all the illegals?

Drivers Licence? Why the hell would that be necessary? There is absolutely no relation between the skills needed to drive a car and direct a carriage. Why not require a pilot license, or a motorcycle license, all have just as much bareing on one's ability to direct a cart. How about a hunting license? then we at least know you know how to deal with the animal if it does spook.

Same goes for Petty Cabs - there is no such thing as a bicycle license, so why should a drivers license be required to ride a bike with an extra seat on the back?

Well maybe we should make a licence system for both Horse Carriages and Petty Cab drivers then - why not? I still think horse carriages should be banned and the city should pay for the animals they have profited from for years to go to safe sanctuaries but as the city is broke and unemployment is high this is even more unlikely then ever to happen.

So start with what is possible making it more safe for the imbecilic tourists to view the splendor of central park, safer for the public (mad horses on the rampage News at 10 folks will like this), and safer for the animals themselves as they will be in use by people who know the traffic rules of the city and also know how to handle animals in a humane and effective manner.

"I just have this one comment and then I out the door folks"

---where you go? you go to peta protest? you go to columbus circle to protest? me go with you?

omg bahahahaaaaaaa, youngpro lol

sidenote: if I take down this picture, would you remove those pages/blogs?

"The reason is that most of these carriage drivers are illegal Mexicans, Turkish..."

---again with the baseless facts you seem to pull out of thin air.

youngpro - that is their M.O. in everything they do.

Who gives a shit, they're not driving. I have a drivers license and have no idea how to operate a horse.

Horses don't belong in major cities...plain and simple. And, we need to hurry up and ban them so we can ban cars next.

a horse is not a machine to operate. But these carriage drivers are a danger to public safety since they don't obey the traffic laws since they probably don't know the since they are unlicensed. And then the horse is mixed with all those cars and trucks which is inhumane and unsafe for all.

I thought you were "one comment and out the door", R? LOL

They're a danger to public safety because its a carriage tied to a thousand pound ridiculously strong ridiculously stupid animal that will run into intersections and kill itself if somebody's balloon pops.

Having or not having a driver's license is totally NOT the issue here.

"ridiculously stupid"??????? Says who? where did you get that tidbit of information? Or do you think that anything that`s not a human is automatically stupid? what a sad view of the world

It's an animal that get spooked and will run into a wall and kill itself.

I would say that falls under the category of dangerously stupid, sorry.

ok

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mad, I just think this practice is insanely outdated, and it gets me mad to hear about this.... nothing personal

Sidenote: the girl in your avatar is ridiculously cute too, so, happy to chat whenever!

The fair raise hike of over 150% pushed by Christine Quinn is for the owners not the workers.

They should just ban them once & for all!!

The epidemic of abandoned horses across the country is due to what is being called a “perfect storm” of a slow economy, highfeed prices, & mortgage foreclosures. This is a mammoth crisis - 1000s of horses being left to waste away in fields & paddocks, surrendered to over-crowded rescues, or shipped to slaughter. Closing down a business where horses lead content & exceedingly reasonable existences will only ADD to this problem.

The hundreds of thousands of horses whose owners can no longer afford them - these horses were kept as pets or for pleasure. A horse with a JOB is helping to earn it's own keep; a horse with a viable job will be the LAST horse to feel the recession.

As you can see, anyone who wants to take jobs away from horses is NO FRIEND TO THE HORSE.

Anybody hell-bent on putting carriages out of business should hop on down to the auction & buy a slaughter-bound horse and care for it for the rest of its natural life. Put your money where your mouth is, trade in your keyboard jockey bullcrap for some real work to make a difference.

sorry for the duplicate posting, puter probs :-)

The epidemic of abandoned horses across the country is due to what is being called a “perfect storm” of a slow economy, highfeed prices, & mortgage foreclosures. This is a mammoth crisis - 1000s of horses being left to waste away in fields & paddocks, surrendered to over-crowded rescues, or shipped to slaughter. Closing down a business where horses lead content & exceedingly reasonable existences will only ADD to this problem.

The hundreds of thousands of horses whose owners can no longer afford them - these horses were kept as pets or for pleasure. A horse with a JOB is helping to earn it's own keep; a horse with a viable job will be the LAST horse to feel the recession.

As you can see, anyone who wants to take jobs away from horses is NO FRIEND TO THE HORSE.

Anybody hell-bent on putting carriages out of business should hop on down to the auction & buy a slaughter-bound horse and care for it for the rest of its natural life. Put your money where your mouth is, trade in your keyboard jockey bullcrap for some real work to make a difference.

SERIOUSLY. Ban this anachronistic practice.