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"The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource -- people," proclaims a new study from the Empire Center For NY State Policy. It shows that many New Yorkers are leaving the state in record numbers, and the move is looking to be quite taxing on the state. Between 2000 and 2008, 1.5 million state residents left for other parts of the U.S., leaving the state with a huge loss in taxable income. Nearly 80% of those who left were New York City residents.
What's more unfortunate for the city is that the new residents generally earn less than the ones who fled. The Post points out the average Manhattan taxpayer who left the state earned $93,264 a year, whereas the average newcomer earns about $72,726. Still nothing to sneeze at, but that's over $20,000 less in taxable income for the city.
The reason for this flight? Taxes! Yes, surprisingly the city is just too darned expensive for most people. So where did they go? Most of the ex-population headed to Jersey or Florida (or "Florida" like Tom Golisano). Then again, plenty just moved around. More than half of those who left Manhattan moved just north to the Bronx, and a good two-thirds of those who left Brooklyn went to Staten Island (at least the ferry is free).
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Could it also be that many of the people leaving are high earning baby boomers at the height of their careers, fleeing to the south just before or at retirement, and many of the new residents are simply younger people, earlier in their careers, before they reach their peak earning potential?
That could be the case, but we'll never know from this report, since the authors didn't bother to investigate that. In fact, they didn't bother to investigate any reasons why people move to or from New York State. Instead, after going through the demographic data, the authors just make this assertion:
That the answer "must begin with New York's state and local tax burden" is assumed, but never explained. Why not begin with the job markets in NY and other states? Or the cost of living? Or check the ages of those who are leaving to see how many are retiring. None of these factors get more then a dismissive sentence in the conclusion, and the weather is dismissed entirely, though again with no actual reasoning: In fact, according to the report the top eight states for domestic migration from 2000-2008 were Florida, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, Georgia, Nevada, South Carolina and Tennessee. (Wisconsin and Minnesota both lost out on domestic migration, so their population increases are due to either increased births or foreign immigration -- not to other Americans deciding they don't mind the temperatures there.)I'm sure there are many people who move out of NY because of taxes, but there are also many who move out for reasons that have nothing to do with taxes. I'd be very interested to see a report that actually examines why people move, but this report doesn't do that.
I say raise taxes more. Once America is a Communist nation we will all be happy.
Obama was a step in the right direction but Americans will not know peace until the capitalists and rich are brought down to their knees for their greed.
Raise taxes, destroy the capitalist system and start all over with the only systen that works REAL communist rule.
Stalin, Lenin and Marx are the true ones to follow. Obama is taking America in the right direction. DESTROY WEALTH and ALL will be happy!
Only the STATE! Only the COLLECTIVE are worth saving.
Union jobs, Union pay! The American Communist Party will save America.
Workers unite. Make collectives. Close the capitalist stores and buinesses. Grow your own food. TAX THE RICH TO DEATH. If they leave New York chase them down and take everything they stole from the masses.
A COMMUNIST AMERICA IS FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. New York City is where it will all start. The American Communist Party is ready to take over. We will lead America to be great. Join our brothers and sisters in Russia, China, North Korea and Cuba. Unite to form a PERFECT WORLD.
The United Nations can run the world if we form a global communist state. We must help Obama to CHANGE America!!!
Once we drain all the money and jobs from the capitalists they will have to become part of the collective.
Read Lenin and Marx you will learn much.
I wish I could leave. Maybe if I went someplace else I could get a job that pays enough to be worth getting up and going to work. At this point my options seem to be paying less than frickin unemployment.
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't you live in Stuy Town?: http://gothamist.com/2009/10/23/landlords_scared_stuy_town_ruling_w.php#comment-2372146
There are plenty of places in NYC that offer far cheaper rents that downtown Manhattan, you know?
I thought NJ has even higher taxes than NYC?
moving from brooklyn to staten island, isn't that one and the same?
Income Taxes are much cheaper. Jersey has higher property taxes than NYC, but Westchester and Long Island have just as high property taxes.
Moving from Manhattan to Jersey City or Hoboken will give you about a 1.5%-3% raise since you don't pay NYC income tax and the state tax is cheaper.
I think it's a lot of retirees moving to Florida as their is no state income tax in Florida. Those living off retirement tend to make the move or at least change their primary residence to their house in St. Lucie.
Income Taxes are much cheaper. Jersey has higher property taxes than NYC, but Westchester and Long Island have just as high property taxes.
Moving from Manhattan to Jersey City or Hoboken will give you about a 1.5%-3% raise since you don't pay NYC income tax and the state tax is cheaper.
I think it's a lot of retirees moving to Florida as their is no state income tax in Florida. Those living off retirement tend to make the move or at least change their primary residence to their house in St. Lucie.
Empire Center For NY State Policy is a conservative think tank. I wouldn't trust anything they have to say.
Ideas different from your own should always be dismissed as rubbish.
ideology masquerading as "ideas" are usually rubbish. a conservative think tank will start from the premise that all taxes are bad and work backwards.
Right, because the notion that people might relocate to states where less of their income is taken is entirely irrational and counterintuitive.
What's wrong with believing that taxes are bad? Especially income taxes?
The only place growing near the NYC area is in the Hudson Valley; Orange County.
Doesn't Long Island have even higher taxes than NYC? Living there you need to make $150,000+.
not necessarily. but LI'ers get raped with property and school taxes...NYCers pay CITY tax on top of State and Fed. LI'ers just pay State and fed....
still a buttload a year
One of the authors of this piece is vigorously anti-urban and tied into the road building lobby. So of course he stands to gain from promoting the idea that cities are falling out of favor.
People seem to be forgetting that regardless of taxes, cost per square foot is a major issue. Whether or not NJ or LI have higher taxes than the city, I think it's obvious you can get more bang for your buck in terms of monthly rent or mortgage costs.
Lets see, NY has one of the highest income taxes (the highest when you factor in city tax) the 2nd highest property tax, one of the highest fee structures... should I go on? And the politicians keep increasing the budgets as revenues fall... any wonder why people are fleeing? Factor in the high costs of everything from housing, food, electricity, fuel, etc here and we are literally pick-pocketed coming and going.
Not to worry, mayor mike predicts people will be moving to the city for the great public schools!
Gee, I wonder if anyone really wants to come here anymore.
I finally left the city for New Jersey. My wife nor I could never afford to buy a home here not with the inflated real estate prices, property tax, crap public schools. We are both well educated people with good paying jobs with benefits. We both still work in the city but now I own a home in a wonderful section of New Jersey with a great school system, my commute is about five more minutes, I never have to take the MTA if I don't want to. I have peace and quiet or if I choose bars and restaurants within walking distance. The best thing I ever did was get out of there.
Guilliani and Bloomberg have set NYC up so that the Middle Class will flee as they did in the 60's and 70's only this time they will make it a playground for the rich. There are better opportunities elsewhere.
Improved conditions made NYC a much more desirable place to live. This means the wealth will out price the middle class the middle class for the quite limited housing supply. In some ways NYC is a victim of it's own success, but in the long run it can destroy what makes this city special.
The only short-term solution is angry mobs burning millionaires in the streets.
If you look at commuting patterns more native city people are leaving NYC for NJ, CT and the Hudson Valley, even PA!
maybe rent prices will go down
What kind of New Yorkers move to states with no public education expenditures, no public service expenditures, no arts expenditures, no public infrastructure expenditures, no public welfare expenditures?
New York will not change until it has a General Motors style default.
NYC has a bureaucracy that rivals the federal government in size, but the tax base of wall street and a few other industries.
I have to live here for personal reasons (family), but it kills me to need to live here.
At one point I thought I'd leave the city (with my business) for upstate, but property taxes all over the state are insane, so I'll probably leave the state altogether in the next few years. The bloat and dysfunction of this state's government, and the electorate who knows that taxes are ridiculous but whine about every service cut, are intolerable.
The numbers on interborough migration are misleading, because they are all net numbers, not actual people:
Brooklyn -> Manhattan : (21,119)
Brooklyn -> Bronx : 4,955
Brooklyn -> Queens : 41,686
Brooklyn -> Staten Island : 43,429
Staten Island gained 43,429 Brooklynites, but some Staten Islanders also moved to Brooklyn, meaning the number of Brooklyn residents moving to SI is actually higher -- as are the number of Brooklynites moving to the Bronx and Queens. Without gross numbers we can't actually say what the most popular destinations were, since both of the following give us the same net result:
Brooklyn -> SI - 50,000
SI -> Brooklyn - 6,500
Brooklyn -> Queens - 150,000
Queens -> Brooklyn - 108,500
Brooklyn -> SI - 150,000
SI -> Brooklyn - 106,500
Brooklyn -> Queens - 50,000
Queens -> Brooklyn - 8,500
In the first, Queens is 3x more popular than SI; in the second it's reversed. But in both cases the net numbers are the same.
Jesse, you're being rational. That is not going to go over with anybody. The point of the "report" was to serve as ideological bait for idle ranting. In fact, New York City, taxes and all, is presently experiencing increasing population.
lots of interesting posts but it has to be said that NJ's property taxes are the highest in the USA (it varies by town but still they are crazy high). So if you are a renter, you might really want to consider NJ, but if you are buying a house? Well, I would think 3x before buying a house in NJ. The only good reason to buy a house in NJ is if you have 2 kids or more and they are getting older and you need more space. My sense is that is exactly what Hoboken is make up of -- double income families with 2+ kids.
Also, at least in my tax bracket, NJ state income taxes are higher than NY state income taxes. Granted, you don't have the NYC income tax, but not everyone lives in NYC either.
I just got a new job in Long island and recent moved there as well. Is federal income taxes more if I live in LI and work in LI or is it cheaper if I work in LI and still live in Brooklyn. I would like to know because Im single with no dependants but, my federal income tax withdral is so high. Can anyone explain?