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A federal judge ruled that the FDNY's written exams "unfairly excluded hundreds of qualified people of color." Judge Nicholas Garaufis wrote, "These unlawful practices barred over a thousand additional black and Hispanic applicants from consideration for appointment as FDNY firefighters, and unfairly delayed the appointment of hundreds of black and Hispanic firefighters." Back in 2007, the Justice Department joined the Vulcan Society to sue the fire department because many more black and Hispanic candidates failed the exam; at the time, only 7.5% of the FDNY was black and/or Hispanic (while in LA and Philadelphia, fire departments were around 40% black and/or Hispanic). The AP reports, "Garaufis said he must consider remedies to end the discrimination which occurred in written exams given to thousands of firefighter candidates from 1999 to 2007." The city has not decided whether it will appeal the decision.
Federal Judge: FDNY Hiring Exams Were Discriminatory
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discrimination can be ended when people are judged not by the color of their skin, which is what the initial marchers for rights wanted- but, instead, this reverse discrimination and "affirmative" action continues to make a mockery of the very freedoms that their godfathers in the struggle fought for. isn't this why the spanish firefighter who scored high decided to join the suit against the reverse discrimination a while back- and won?
Like the New Haven case, this lawsuit hinges on the fallacy that an uneven income is automatically indicative of an unfair or prejudicial practice.
The National Basketball Association is disproportionately Black, yet if the Justice Department were to join a lawsuit filed by White basketball players who failed to make the cut, the public would be justifiably outraged. The lawsuit filed by the Vulcan Society is no less a sham.
Wait a minute, vulcans what to be firefighters?
Don't worry, they didn't get in because they can't read Gaelic.
I'm looking forward to reading the test questions that were "discriminatory." Did FDNY add a Dave Matthews Band trivia section?
This country is getting retarded quick. I think we need to throw a parade for diversity; complete with party hats and confetti and then maybe everyone can shut the fuck up and get back to, you know, saving lives and unimportant stuff like that.
The govt union job slots are worth much more than human lives.
There's no rational reason why FDNY has so many white firefighters when on any given NFL weekend there are so many large, strong and fast black men taking the field. If these jobs weren't so desirable, then FDNY staffing would be mostly black and latino.
Why does Harvard law school have more racial diversity than FDNY?
the decision can be read here
http://www.nyed.uscourts.gov/pub/rulings/cv/2009/07cv2067mo072209.pdf
I urge anyone wanting to make their own determination on whether the decision was correct to read parts of it. The most relevant sections start around page 50. Based on my quick skimming of it, I think the city clearly failed to show that the tests had anything to do with the skills necessary for being a good firefighter.
i dont get it. were the exams written in a way that people of color dont know the answers to the questions? how hard can it be?
I never really got how a written exam could be discriminatory unless like the other guy said there's a dave mathews trivia section. I want to see these questions.
Aren't US special forces mostly white also? Do they give written exams as well?
as a fdny firefighter candidate hopeful. i took the same test as everyone else did and shocked that the written exam is discriminative to any race as i am asian. the test consists of questions in regards to common sense and visual recognition (ie: you are shown a picture for a few minutes and try to remember as many details as possible from this image and then its removed and you proceed to answer questions related to the picture 5mins later)there were few or no questions in regards to fire sciences but there is a time limit on the exam and a good amount of people were unable to complete the exam due to the time limit and in the classroom where the exam was taken out of 40 possible candidates about 12 were black or hispanic i was the only asian. if you pass the written exam you are assigned a number. the lower the number the sooner you get a call back. when you get your call back you move forward in the hiring process. first your physical evaluation and drug test if you fail your physical or drug test thats it, but if successful they run a background check, then psychological and medical evaluations and if you clear all these stations. you get accepted at the fire academy where you can still get dismissed based on your physical performance or failure to receive passing grades in the classroom. i think its a system that works in weeding out those ethically, physically or mentally incompetent to perform their duties before they're put in the field where lives are at risk including their own regardless of race and for those who failed the written exam they shouldnt even be allowed to operate simple electronics and the last place they should be around is complicated machinery.
also education requirements were lowered for the last written entrance exam for firefighter. before you needed a associates degree but changed to high school diploma or GED but must prove that the candidate was employed for 3 yrs or something along those lines...
"must prove that the candidate was employed for 3 yrs or something along those lines..."
That alone would disqualify most of the whiners.
that sounds like the NYPD exam. it's all about test prep and just like a fraternity has all the past exams so do some people in these organizations. it's all who you know, not what you know.
Even if that is the case, it makes the firefighters racist, not the exam.
Who hasnt noticed by now? Every truck i see is filled with white guys. Almost every cop every job except for cleaning and nursing the subway or hotels. Anyone notice michael"s body from the house to the mourge all white doods in sunglasses transporting him. For the record
my mom is white father is black.
and as a person of asian ethnicity i should take notice and make a beef about the lack of asian representation in civil services because asians are limited to working take out restaurants, dry cleaners/laundromats, sweat shops and sales of counterfeit goods on canal st???. oh wait i cant seek city or federal employment due to the fact that INS might find out and deport me???? then again maybe a racial defamation suit can get me hired for the wrong reasons meanwhile someone who might be better qualified no matter their race has to take a seat on the bench because theres not enough asian representation in the uniformed services in nyc or in any major city for that matter..
and it doesnt matter if youre black, white, yellow, mixed whatever. the most qualified should get the job and in order for their to be more people of color to join our citys uniformed services they have to take these test as i said in my comment earlier out of the 4-500 or so test takers that day there was mayb 100 of black and latino ethnicity and less than 10 asians the exam took place at canarsie HS in brooklyn where the neighborhood is mostly black.
Since when is being an illiterate dumbass "discriminatory"?? I fail to see any valid case here, unless the questions included things like requesting blind recitations of Beastie Boy's lyrics and Bud Light jingles...
I didn't realize being an illiterate dumbass was 'discriminatory'. Oops, better make the test easier, and eliminate the questions about the Beastie Boys and Bud Light jingles...
I love Gothamist's slow-ass posting, interrupted by Flash timeouts, unnecessary re-logins, and subsequent double-postings which can't be altered because their system sucks major monkey balls. I think they need a FDNY-style test for their web monkeys...
"web monkey"?
wtf? call al sharpton. hoover is a racist!
The standard deviation of blacks and Hispanics in terms of IQ scores and SAT scores would tell us that fewer blacks and Hispanics will pass than whites. And in absolute terms, it's even greater---imagine that absolute/real number in a whiter city than NYC.
So in the aggregate, blacks and Hispanics will test poorer on written exams. Big, groundbreaking news, right?
I have seen this test, it in now way has ANYTHING to do with race. Just if you are a stupid person that has not mastered the English language then you fail.
Welcome to AMEXICA
I have seen this test, it in no way has ANYTHING to do with race. Just if you are a stupid person that has not mastered the English language then you fail.
Welcome to AMEXICA
According to the ruling -the expert found that the reading level for the exam was above the 12th grade, too high for the job of firefighter-.
I guess Tolstoy is off the FDNY summer reading list.
I just read almost all of the 93 page ruling. The design of the test started in an acceptable manner, but then was actually written by a group of 5 firefighters and not by a professional test writer. Additionally, the test was never validated to confirm the questions linked back to the required skill sets. Lastly, the reading level of the test was above the 12th grade level, which is higher than the requirement for the job. Conversely, the recent CT firefighter case of reverse discrimination had an 8th grade reading level, below the requirements of the job. FYI - The City also had pretty lousy arguments...
such bs - its not the test. Its about the ambition.
its the ambition of non aristocratic white parents for thier children to get jobs with a pension via the nypd, fd, utility company...I used to hear that as I kid...what do you want to be when you grow up...don't you want to work for the phone company?
thats where the bar is set - and what people from that class aim for - thats why its predominately white.
the black kids wanted to be basketball stars. the jewish kids were going to be lawyers and dentists. asian kids did really well in school and probably winded up in the corporate world. really rich kids could afford to be artists or something.
to me, thats what determines who does what in life. the ambition your parents put in you when you're young - its not so much about race, but about class and culture.
1.) What is the capital of Ireland?
2.) Complete the line: "Corned beef and ___"
Essay Question: In 250 words or less, please explain why you'd like to live in Murray Hill.
FUCK THIS
Nothing about race here.
Study up assholes.
Best man for the job.
And no easing up on the physical tests either.
I cannot even fathom a written test that could not be passed by someone, based solely on their race. The very notion of such a test existing, is disturbing to me. If I were hispanic or of african descent, I would be PISSED about this ruling. The argument is being made that, people of these specific racial / cultural backgrounds are somehow inferior to the rest of us in written exams.
I mean, think about that. Dwell on it for a few minutes. What sort of bizarre question would someone hispanic or black not know the answer to, that everyone else would know the answer to?
I just don't see where race could possibly play into this.
The test was designed by 5, presumably white, firefighters and then not validated. I would say there are inherent cultural differences between different races and if you’re not taking those into consideration when designing the test you're just setting people different from the test authors up to fail. The ruling isn't about lowering the standards of the test to make more minorities qualify, but rather to create a test using universally accepted design methods. In fact, the ruling goes on to say the New Haven case is valid because instead of making the test fair, they just made it too easy!
I'd love to see some examples, especially from this particular test.
the fdny firefighter written entrance exam is based on common sense!!!! no where in this test were there 5 or 6 syllable words...unless u had a literacy level of a second grader with common sense you shouldve passed...
12th grade reading level is in line with their education requirements actually... so i wonder how one could come to the conclusion that, that is excessive?