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Upstate writer John Kuhner was visiting New York (his hometown) last week when his late night subway ride to Queens got even more tedious than usual. Around 5:30 a.m., a plainclothes cop entered his subway car at Roosevelt Avenue and ordered all seven male riders off the train. Like the others, Kuhner had made the mistake of putting his feet up, which is punishable with a $50 fine. He writes, "We were received by a group of police officers, six in all... who demanded our IDs and said they were going to run a check on us. It took forever for these six cops to get our names through to their computer, and the entire time all seven of us became more and more annoyed and difficult... I began to harangue the officers: 'This is ridiculous. The Law is for the resolution of grievances between citizens... This is a shameless revenue grab, and that’s why you, officer, won’t look me in the eye or even respond.'" Kuhner goes off on the cops like Patrick Henry on his sixth Sparks, and you can probably imagine how far his impassioned rhetoric got him. Read the whole indignant story here, which ends with one commenter sagely urging Kuhner to "take solace in the fact that by challenging this ticket... you will ultimately cost the city more than the $50 that they fined you."
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hey john,
how's the air up there on your high horse, you sanctimonious douchebag?
keep your stinky feet off the seats, pay your fine, and shut the fuck up - but not necessarily in that order.
Amen. Keep your nasty ass feet of the seat.
i read no further. it in a nut shell. swak
Oh i just love your dogshit-ridden shoes wiped all over where my kids sit on their way to school. Please come round to my house where I will shove it down your throat. Prick.
Politeness is a personal choice it should NOT be imposed at gunpoint by the armed agents of the state!!!!
Nobody should be fined or detained for the "crime" of putting their feet on a seat in a mostly empty train!!!!
Like a baby he cries.
So how many people were raped or robbed, while these pigs were figuring out how to spell, "john?"
His complaint that a woman who was taking up more than one seat because she had bags is invalid. She was not breaking the car in doing that on a nearly-empty car, because that rule applies only when it "would interfere or tend to interfere" with operation of the system or "the comfort of other passengers."
In other words, if you're not blocking access or keeping anyone from sitting down, you can use more than one seat.
But it's always against the MTA rules of conduct (which have the force of law under the state Public Authorities Law) to put your feet on a seat, or lie down.
In short, he should just pay the $50. He's already published his confession. If any of the other guys were simply dozing while sitting, they should fight their citations.
Or, maybe the city and state shouldn't cram their rigid ideas of politeness down the public's throats at gunpoint!
any anti-semitic rants involved or was he a good boy?
How long until Viane Delgado chimes in and says how this guy used ethnic slurs?
Let's see how tough all of you are when you get written up for some penny-ante shit just because some cops had to fill a quota. He was right to be mad.
On the other hand, police action like this is how Giuliani got the crime rate down. Bust the people who jump turnstiles (or, you know, put their feet up or take up two seats) because they're likely to be the ones who break other, more serious rules as well. For cops to only use those rules to nab the people with rap sheets and not ticket anybody else who breaks them wouldn't really be an equal application of the law. so it's lose lose. Still, i'm glad John gave 'em hell.
I actually went to the same high school as John and was friends in elementary school with one of his siblings. He's a good and decent guy. And way, way too smart for his own good, that's for sure.
let's see how tough YOU all are when you get robbed and you have to call the big, bad cops to get your ipod back.
"virgilstarkwell : let's see how tough YOU all are when you get robbed and you have to call the big, bad cops to get your ipod back."
riiiiiiiight.
the last time i got in a fender bender TWO blocks from Times Square, i watched police drive by for TWO HOURS before they came.
and the time before that when i tried to get a police report required by my cell carrier to use the insurance for a new phone, i spent an hour and a half hours at the police station for something that took 5 minutes to write up. the officer that i was waiting for was literally chatting with friends on the phone, yukkin it up with her colleagues and laughing in the faces of the people waiting ("you people look like you're in a hurry!")
oh, and there was the time my friend's car was broken into a block from Grand Central. He had a bag full of clothes stolen. yeah, with no exhaggeration, we waited for almost two hours to get a police report that would've taken 15 minutes and literally watched 4-5 cop cars drive by as we tried to flag them down. they saw the shattered window on the street side. it wasnt till i thought to take out my camera and conspicuously point it at them as they drove by that they stopped.
god help you if you ever really need a cop.
It was 50 bucks. I think this hipster doofus can afford it; if not, mom and dad will cough it up.
The "Broken Windows" theory of law enforcement is a fascist concept - Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco and Trujillo all used "Broken Window" style policing and dragnet arrests as a way of "keeping crime rates down" - it was morally wrong then and it's morally wrong now.
"On the other hand, police action like this is how Giuliani got the crime rate down. "
He likes to say that, but is it true. Crime was going down nationally in the US when he was mayor, and there a lot of questions about the "broken window" theory of crime.
If he was as smart as advertised, he would have kept his mouth shut. Take your ticket and move along. He got busted for breaking a rule-a minor but still enforceable rule. Keep your feet off the seats. Did he grow up in a barn?
He tried to defend his civil rights - and that to me does not make him "stupid" it makes him A HERO!!!!!
fuck off troll
Orange haze?...what about purple ;-)
ow did i comment on woodstock and end up here? wacky today.
"Kuhner goes off on the cops like Patrick Henry on his sixth Sparks..."
Outstanding.
Jesus, what a whiny little bitch. I say good. He was likely shitfaced drunk and passed out (reading between the lines, his own blog pretty much agrees), and he deserved to be treated like a drunk. You want to spread out on an empty subway train, fine, but get your filthy-ass feet off the seats.
He is no "whiny bitch" - he's a great man, for standing up to the armed agents of the state as they tried to cram the government's will down his throat.
Maybe you're a "good German" who always snaps to attention and salutes when the police walk by - but some of us are still free Americans who stand up to government tyranny!
lol gregory a butler.
oh no! the government is oppressing you!
i guess if you consider the government providing a service to make your life more convenient, oppression, youd be right.
but no, you consider the government enforcing rules designed to stop you from making other peoples rides uncomfortable a stab at your civil rights.
just a question. which civil right provides you the right to put your feet on a piece of property owned by the government?
since when are there seats to put your feet on in a barn?
fucking whiny hipster.
...and the Times Square bomber remains at large.
I believe this was an attempt to catch him.
FAIL.
Maybe they can fine all those little kids I see standing on subway seats.
Good for him. Police shouldn't enforce these rules on an empty train. Makes no sense
The bum that took a crap in the next car went on his way unmolested.
If you smell bad enough or shit your pants, da cops don't want nuttin to do with you...we could all learn a thing or three from bums.
the cops have become the robbers
Wow that's profound...
Personally I'd be happy to see anyone putting their feet on the seats be fined $50. It's obnoxious, and there's just no reason to do it. I doze on the subway all the time, but I manage to use just one seat and to keep my feet on the floor.
$50 isn't unreasonable, if that's what it takes to teach people to be somewhat considerate.
And the fact that among these seven 5 AM subway riders none happened to have anything outstanding isn't too relevant. No doubt that team of cops worked that line several hours, and no doubt it paid off bigger with some groups they stopped than it did with this one.
I have my doubts about whether the number of cops working on this sort of assignment, and the amount of time spent checking out each alleged violator, is an efficient use of law enforcement resources.
"I have my doubts about whether the number of cops working on this sort of assignment, and the amount of time spent checking out each alleged violator, is an efficient use of law enforcement resources."
From a profit and loss standpoint, certainly it isn't. Which is the counterargument to the criticism that this is a money grab or about "economics."
But if four cops (the two uniforms were likely assigned to the station anyway, not part of the unit that was making the stops) working a shift brought in a couple of (or three, or four, whatever) wanted felons who were foolish enough to draw attention to themselves and justify their questioning by breaking a minor rule... yeah, it's a win.
Not moving to the center of a crowded car, holding the doors, and not letting people off the train before you enter it should be finable offenses. Frankly these activities are far more disruptive and harmful to the people around you and the system in general, although I agree that putting your feet up on the seats is disgusting.
A system of modest fines coupled with clearer messages would create strong disincentives for people who abuse the transit system and slow down their fellow passengers.
I'm annoyed and surprised to read so many unsympathetic comments from satisfied posters who would rather condone police hassling non-criminals on a subway in the wee hours - riders who weren't bothering or inconveniencing anyone- than stand up for a fellow NY resident who writes articulately about this absurd confrontation. Why does it not seem ridiculous to you that a whole group of police officers is occupied with babysitting random subway riders on a platform while they await summonses for 'violations' such as resting your feet on an unoccupied seat or leaning across the seat next to them? And threatened with possible arrest, no less!
I hope that he does show up and object to this fine. I'll bet the city won't get $50.
I completely agree. It was 5am. the subway was empty. so let's not say that he was inconveniencing anybody. secondly, assuming that it was the most common type of F train with the 3-4-3 seat configuration between each set of doors, he was probably in one of the seats of the middle island with a tiny sliver of the sole of his shoe resting on the edge of the 3-seat bench. if you think about it. it would be damn near impossible (and very uncomfortable) to contort your legs and feet in such a way to actually achieve complete contact between the soles of your feet and the bottom or back of the seat (unless you were actually standing on the seat itself, which a good many toddlers do. frequently. and without being ticketed themselves, nor their parents).
Which is all beside the point, of course, because the outer layers of clothing of that homeless person who smells like shit and piss and human filth which were just making 100% contact with the entire surface area of the seat 2 stops before you got on and sat on it are WAAAAAY more disgusting than the bottom of the average new yorker's shoe. I'd rather ticket the homeless guy, quite frankly, because we all know that some of them are so vile it's impossible to even sit at the same end of the car as them. So how many seats are they taking up? 20? But we don't, and nor should any of these people have been ticketed.
Please, let those transit cops ride the A train between 207th street and Jay street between, say, 9am and 10am. They'll see homeless people smoking cigarettes in the car during rush hour. And Chris, the huge, bald, bespectacled, acid-washed jeans wearing preacher with the massive duffel bag of food'n'bibles who begs for money then SCREAMS AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS FOR 3 OR 4 STOPS about how he used to be a crackhead and now jesus saved him.
Or, transit cops, please tale the 2 train from court street/borough hall going uptown around 7pm. The gentleman who works for the fraudulent "united homeless organization" who comes on and blares in the loudest monotone imaginable GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMEN CAN ANYBODY HELP OUT WITH ONE DOLLAR, ONE NICKEL OR EV-VEN ONE.. PENNY TO HELP THE HUNGRY AND HOMELESS.
I'm all for plainclothes cops on the subway, especially late at night, but Kuhner is absolutely right that this was a capricious and grasping application of the law that in no way helps or serves the citizens of new york. Detain robbers, rapists, gangs, bullies, subway-smokers, flashers, and the like.
Not pizza guys on their way home from work, or Latin-speaking intellectuals.
"Kuhner is absolutely right that this was a capricious and grasping application of the law"
What's capricious about it? The law clearly states that you can't put your feet on seats. He put his feet on the seats. Nothing capricious at all; it's a cut and dried violation of the law.
Yes, the law is for the resolution of grievances between citizens. And I have a grievance with your putting your feet on "my" subway seat.
Now, if only they could start handing out fines and/or jailing people for the other disgusting things they do to the subway, maybe it could be a better experience for all.
He even admits to doing this in restaurants?
Yes, I too hate feet on seats, it's fucking GROSS...
BUT, he makes a good point about the law not being applied equally (only rounding up the men in the car). I also agree that these dumb penny ante laws were drawn up to give the NYPD almost unlimited reasons to stop, detain, or arrest someone. Thanks to Rudy and the crooked commissioners he put in charge!
The law is not applied equally...WOW what a fucking revelation.
PS the rule was enacted in 2005...if you are going to make an ad hominem attack on a politician you should at leats know who was mayor when the law was created shithead.
I got a $100 ticket and a separate summons in a matter of two days for minor bike related violations. The cops are out in full force cracking down on people who are slowly coasting on their bikes on the sidewalk, instead of actually stopping real crimes. Fuck those assholes.
Isn't riding a bicycle on the sidewalk illegal?
Yes, in most cases riding your bicycle on the sidewalk is neither wise nor legal.
I hate it when people bike on the sidewalk, it's illegal and rightfully so
why don't they get rid of cops if they're really in such a pinch for money?
what do they need the money for? to send them out at three in the morning to ticket people for shit like this?
THIS SAME TYPE OF THING has happened to me on the subway, except, i DID NOT have my feet on a seat, I WAS NOT taking up more than one seat. It was new years and i was asleep with my head on the window, in the same type of seat as this guy.
I awoke to a cop putting a ticket in my lap. the shithead had taken the wallet out of my coat pocket to get my info off of my ID. admittedly, this wasnt the best place to keep my wallet, but that sounds highly off to me - - anyone else?
when i asked WHY i had gotten a ticket, he said i was obstructing the people's right of way, when in FACT i was sitting like a normal person in my place. when i asked him why he didnt wake me up and why he took the wallet out of my jacket, he turned around and walked away.
i tried to fight this in court, but of course, they are in on it. i was told by the judge that they are to take the police's word for it, that what they said was absolute. I was literally told that. the judge wasnt hearing it. THEY KNOW WHATS GOING ON AND THEY IGNORE IT.
good luck seeking "justice", John
If I stretch out my legs over the edge of the seat in front of me (like the picture, but further out) so my feet don't touch the seat, is it a crime? I think it's disgusting to put shoes on the seats, but am I risking a ticket from an uninformed cop? Or an informed cop?
The rule says a rider may not "place his or her foot on a seat." So technically if your feet are hanging past and your calves are resting on the seat, you're not in violation.
But your question was whether you'd be risking a ticket, so the answer is probably yes.
"BUT, he makes a good point about the law not being applied equally (only rounding up the men in the car).
Unless the women weren't breaking the law. At least one he mentioned, the one with bags on an empty seat, wasn't if that was all she was doing.
I haven't seen any evidence that the NYPD tends to ignore minor violations committed by women. Chrissie Brodigan probably agrees with me.
I'm also somewhat skeptical that he knows exactly what everyone else on the train may have been doing, since he was laying down on a seat trying to sleep.
As for whether he's recounting everything said and done by the cops after they were all on the platform... who knows? But his word is generally being taken as being completely accurate (remembered perfectly clearly at 530 AM after a long night out) while many other people whose stories are recounted here are instantly shouted down.
"Thanks to Rudy"
Can't blame him for this one. This set of rules went into effect in 2005.
yep, that entire exchange is in quotations. so he remembered every word spoken, by every person involved? highly doubtful, based on the circumstances.
as per usual, intelligence is entirely subjective. a quote in latin at the top of one's blog doth not make one smart, me thinks.
People need to stop pretending like the subway seats are made of leather. Also I'm yet to find a way to comfortably fit in the corner seats on the F train without puttingvyou feet up.
At any rate, I think a lot of you miss the point. It is not about whether this is a law, but whether this is an effective use of our police force. If you make petty laws simply to allow for background checks and filling coffers, you run the risk of creating a fierce resentment against the police.
Is keeping empty seats clear of feet at 5:30 am worth a growing resentment of the police?
So, because you don't find corner seats comfortable, you get to smear dog sh!t all over the edge of the other seat? Awesome. You probably sit on your fat ass all day at work, so maybe you try standing. Better yet, do some exercises like the crazy guy I see in the morning.
People need to stop pretending like the subway seats are made of leather. Also I'm yet to find a way to comfortably fit in the corner seats on the F train without puttingvyou feet up.
At any rate, I think a lot of you miss the point. It is not about whether this is a law, but whether this is an effective use of our police force. If you make petty laws simply to allow for background checks and filling coffers, you run the risk of creating a fierce resentment against the police.
Is keeping empty seats clear of feet at 5:30 am worth a growing resentment of the police?
People need to stop pretending like the subway seats are made of leather. Also I'm yet to find a way to comfortably fit in the corner seats on the F train without puttingvyou feet up.
At any rate, I think a lot of you miss the point. It is not about whether this is a law, but whether this is an effective use of our police force. If you make petty laws simply to allow for background checks and filling coffers, you run the risk of creating a fierce resentment against the police.
Is keeping empty seats clear of feet at 5:30 am worth a growing resentment of the police?
Slightly related:
7/7/09, Grand Central, uptown 4/5/6 platform, 5:05pm. A woman was holding a medium sized brown dog in her arms (not in a carrier). Two officers approached her and she calmly walked upstairs with them.
"Also I'm yet to find a way to comfortably fit in the corner seats on the F train without puttingvyou feet up."
Then... don't sit in a corner seat. There were ten people in this car, he picked a seat where he could put his feet up.
Hell, I stand all the time on trains (and I ride the F several times a week) because I don't want the particular seats that are available, whether it's because they're in a cramped spot like that or the people next too them are taking so much space that it won't be comfortable for me to squeeze in.
Yeah it sucks. But it's the subway.
"I think a lot of you miss the point... If you make petty laws simply to allow for background checks and filling coffers, you run the risk of creating a fierce resentment against the police."
Or is this the point: if you choose to break petty laws (whatever their ultimate sinister purpose may be), you run the risk of being subject to background checks and filling coffers.
Isn't it about time to paint over that stupid CPR message on the side of police vehicles?
The NYPD just doesn't get the concept that goes with it. And they say they need more officers. For what? Call them and they show up an hour after, maybe. Also can the 911 dispatch center hire people that understand English, real English, not ebonics?
The 911 dispatch center needs to hire people fluent in hysteria, panic, snide, terror and stupid.
Rudy Giuliani is available...
How many folks here who think this was richly deserved would be complaining themselves if a bunch of cops corraled them and others and handed out summonses for jaywalking to people who didn't wait for the light? It's against the rules to jaywalk, yes, we know that, and it makes driving in the city a lot more difficult when people don't follow the rules, but really, does that kind of enforcement create the kind of city we want? From the revenue perspective though, you could mint a fortune just by nabbing everyone who did it on one midtown corner on a single lunchhour. Especially with plainclothes cops it shouldn't be too hard. And then to take a half-hour to process them, I bet people would complain. As well they should!
If I got a ticket for jaywalking, my response would be simply "OK." I knew I was breaking the law, but I made the decision to do so balancing my convenience against the risk of being ticketed for the violation.
Same thing for whenever I've gotten a traffic ticket, or a parking ticket. It's my decision to take that chance. If a cop doing his job calls me on it, OK, I will pay my fine and move on. It's not his fault, it's not some evil SYSTEM out to exploit me, it's just a system of rules that I can choose to follow or not. I have to option not to, but I'm risking a penalty in making that choice.
This is the most sane post I have ever read on gothamist.
Cleary you will be leaving this board soon as you have too much common sense.
Bet he wont be putting his feet on the seats anymore.
It will cost the city nothing extra. There is an ADA in court that reps the city for all not guilty pleas. He gets paid a salary. Thats his/her job.
Doesn't the city have to pay for more ADAs to handle more petty cases like this? That's our tax money.
"Doesn't the city have to pay for more ADAs to handle more petty cases like this? That's our tax money."
No. An ADA won't have anything to do with this. This is what's known as a TAB summons, a civil penalty handled by the Transit Adjudication Bureau not a normal court.
The rules are the rules and are posted.
Nobody's forcing anyone to take the subway. You don't like the rules, take the bus. Or a taxi. Or walk--it's free.
Between the cops and the muggers stealing your money it's probably better to take a cab. It's cheaper and safer.
just more NYPD goodwill,
can't buy this PR at any price.
that's why they always opt for non-jury trials.
what a boring/evil city/country this has become.
This is a total waste of police time. You really think having 4+officers issuing MTA summons at 5:30am makes any sense whatsoever? How about splitting those 4 up and having them patrol the trains or stations, i.e. doing actual POLICE work rather than attempting to increase revenue and erasing whatever goodwill the NYPD has left, which is not much.
Whay a whiney fucking baby.
He admitted that he violated the law.
He got caught.
Grow up.
Pay the fine.
Shut the fuck up.
Are we really supposed to get worked up because some asshole with too much time on his hands got banged for a $50 fine?
"Are we really supposed to get worked up..."
your pills. if you actually don't care, try acting like it.
What everyone is failing to realize here is that even though there are plenty of drunk harmless hipsters on the subway at 5:30am...there are probably an equal number of people with warrants, etc. on the same subway, at the same time, which is why these "sting" operations exist.
Is it crappy luck? Yeah. Get over it. Would I be pissed? Damn right...but it isn't the job, obligation, or responsibility of the NYPD or any other police agency to worry about how we feel about laws that our elected officials pass...it is their job to enforce the laws...if they spent time considering how we feel about the laws, nothing would ever get done.
To the person who made the comment about doing "actual police work"...this IS actual police work and it keeps you safe, and makes the subways safer to ride. The more the NYPD does this, the less likely it is for crime prone d-bags with warrants to be using mass transit.
I am by no means defending all NYPD cops or cops in general, or their behavior, but you need to see where they are coming from. PLUS, I'm willing to bet this idiot may have gotten himself out of this ticket following his presumably clean warrant check had he not gone on a ridiculous, childish tirade to a bunch of cops who were probably tired and had been doing the same thing for 16 hours straight.
- He ain't in the box because of the joke played on him. He back-sassed a free man. They got their rules. We ain't got nothin' to do with that. Would probably have happened to him sooner or later anyway - a complainer like him. He gotta learn the rules the same as anybody else.
- Yeah, them poor old bosses need all the help they can get.
- You tryin' to say somethin'? You got a flappin' mouth. One of these days, I'm gonna have to flap me up some dust with it.
I got fined for this 2 years before that law went into effect. At 3 am, I was pulled off a train by a worthless mta jerk who gave me the ticket. At the time I informed him I was doing nothing wrong, and he was stranding me at a basically empty station in nowhere downtown brooklyn.
He could care less. I challenged the ticket. And the person ( not even a judge, a mcjob loser ) tells me on tape that he has reviewed the "case" and that I am correct that I have not violated any laws, but that he is still upholding the ticket.
MTA police aren't cops. They are criminals. They should be arrested. And the MTA leadership should be executed. They are the single worst group of people on this planet. They make Al Quaeda look like the Mickey Mouse Club.
Seriously, the MTA makes me want to find religion so I can find some solace in the belief these bastards would burn for the hell they've wrought upon us all.
Fact of the matter is that this more or less harmless guy got hassled by the cops for some rinky-dink nonsense, and all of you who are saying he deserved it because it's gross to have your feet on a subway bench- I'm going to wipe my feet all over the subway seats next time I get onto a train. When did New Yorkers turn into a bunch of germophobes anyway? And since when has it been cool to stick up for cops who are basically rounding up people off of subways to check their papers?
Police saw an easy non-threatening way to issue 7 $50 tickets all at once. Lame of the cops. I'd be annoyed too.
Yep, just like this "non-threatening" way to issue a ticket for fare evasion:
http://gothamist.com/2008/10/22/cops_shot_at_queens_subway_station.php
If this is so "effective" then let's see some STATISTICS. You won't see any, why??? Because it's just about as effective as NYPD's stop and search tactics, which their statistics show are essentially a HUGE waste of time and resources. Sure, if you stop 1,000 people you might catch one guy which will make headlines every couple of weeks. But in the meantime, during those thousand of hours wasted, you've let several people get mugged/raped/assaulted because police were sitting somewhere writing tickets instead of doing what they are paid for.
http://ccrjustice.org/stopandfrisk#weaponsyield
Success rate of 1% for weapons, 2% for contraband.
In other words, A COMPLETE FARCE!
This wasn't a stop and frisk. Get your facts straight.
John, who wants to see your feet or anyone's feet on a seat that I may need to sit in? Yes, $50 is a lot and you challenged it. Terrific. But you still broke the law so just pay it will you? Get over yourself.
I'm glad. Even if the officers were using a minor offense as an excuse to detain/fine them. Effing people don't have any manners anymore. When did it become ok to put up your feet on another chair? Good, so maybe $50 will teach you a lesson in some manners, etiquette and consideration.
This is really over the top. I admit that Kuhner is a hyperbolic douche, which probably didn't help him, but a reasonable sense of judiciousness suggests that a warning would have sufficed for people who were just lackadaisically placing their feet on the seat* or drearily taking up two seats. Plenty of people would respond belligerently to a polite police request, giving the police the opportunity to (unambiguously under the law) do the exact same thing without handing people an easily dismissible summons - plenty of others would have only momentarily complied, leaving themselves vulnerable on a second sweep.
And really: fishing for criminals who commit harmless civil infractions is a fascist tactic. These rules exist to be enforced when they need to be.
* okay, I can see there being exceptions. Like, maybe there clearly was dog shit on his shoe, and he was smearing it around. A little bit of judgment is obviously called for.
I saw a full size boxer on a leash on the downtown F train from 2nd Avenue yesterday