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The NY Times found some mass transit commuters who are against tolling bridges, even if it means they would pay higher fares. A woman waiting for a bus near Brooklyn College said, "I think it’s unfair to tax drivers to pay for those using public transportation. Why should the bridge commuters pay for the subway commuters in Brooklyn?" There are warring plans in Albany right now and the Times reports most mass transit commuters support bridge tolls, adding, "Few of those interviewed could identify their state senator or what his stance was on the tolls. Many directed their anger over rising fares at the authority or Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who has no direct control over fares." The MTA is set to vote on its budget, Albany bailout or not, this week; will it come to having an MTA telethon to save the agency?
Some Subway, Bus Riders Are Against Tolling Bridges
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I'm a subway rider against bridge tolls. Bridge tolls will only make traffic worse and harm public transit by increasing ridership at the same time services are going to be cut. If you want to decrease, traffic, invest real money into public transit. The current proposals are only going to make things worse.
Enlighten me. How are bridge tolls going to make traffic worse?
And if you're thinking it's because there will be toll booths, then you obviously haven't done much research before choosing your position on tolls (there are no booths - everything is collected electronically at normal speeds).
So if the other option is to cut transit service, people who would have taken buses or trains must now drive. How does that make traffic better? It doesn't - cutting transit will make traffic worse. Tolling reduces traffic because it discourages (some) driving.
Would you rather have lower traffic congestion or free bridges? Would you rather have crowded transit or no transit? I would choose to have transit and reduced congestion because both of those things are better for New York.
I can't see why bridge tolls would make traffic worse. That makes no sense. But it is certainly sensible to point out that if fewer people drive (making traffic better, no?), that probably means more are climbing aboard transit, which crowds us all in there even tighter.
The fact is, $2 to cross the East River above the water rather than below it doesn't go far enough - it won't supply enough money to bulk up NYCT's capactiy (and don't forget the time lag problem there - even with a dump truck full of cash, they don't build that shit overnight) and it will just be an irritant to drivers, rather than a real deterrence to driving.
Here's the most important point: drivers get to free-ride on the rest of us all the time. Look how much real estate is dedicated to cars in this city, and do drivers pay for it, or do we all pay for it? While I'm walking, breathing in the exhaust, am I not paying a price that the driver imposes on me? Drivers - not all of them, but a lot - can be like those smokers who say, Well I've got a right to smoke, so the government can piss off! Sure, go sit in your bubble and smoke your brains out - but don't come into my office, my space, and expect me to suck back that nicotine and tar with you, as if I didn't have rights, as if your right includes imposing this cost on me.
"Bridge tolls will only make traffic worse..."
High-Speed Tolling.
"...and harm public transit by increasing ridership at the same time services are going to be cut."
It's bridge tolls or service cuts.
I said it before and I'll say it again. The MTA is opaque, our leaders are oblique, and my neighbors are obtuse...definitely obtuse.
The woman waiting for a bus near Brooklyn College and commenter #1 need to shut their big fat pie-holes.
This is another example of how foolish the masses are, whether they ride mass transit or not. A freeway lane can carry between 1500-2000 cars per hour. A 10 car subway train can carry over 1,000 passengers. The ability to add two trains per hour is far easier then adding a new lane to a bridge.
Ideally, tolls into Manhattan would be high enough to maximize revenue while minimizing vehicle traffic. Everyone benefits from higher mass transit use because there are fewer cars on the roads. The middle class New Yorker may not be able to drive into Manhattan everyday, but with congestion mitigated by higher pricing, traffic continues to flow; more importantly, on the exceptional days when the average person absolutely needs to drive in Manhattan, driving is made that much easier.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:1s47avv1GzMJ:www.co.marin.ca.us/depts/pw/main/HWY101.pdf+freeway+%22cars+per+hour%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway#Rolling_stock
They understand by tolling bridges it will increase the cost of everything in the city. They're not foolish.
By keeping the bridges free, it keeps the city open and accessible.
If you want to find a boat load of cash, start downsizing public housing. The city will have in excess billions of dollars. Seriously. What are we going to do? spend money rebuilding the crumbling projects in the city? That's insane.
How will it "increase the cost of everything in the city?" Are you saying that the cost of deliveries will skyrocket? If you make more deliveries because there's less traffic into the city won't that offset the slight increase in cost? Why should I bear the cost of maintaining the roads/bridges of some asswipe who's too selfish to take mass transit but insist on driving his car into the city?
Why should anyone pay more to keep fat cats nice and plump?
Did the cost of everything skyrocket when the Port Authority raised tolls by $2 on the Hudson River crossings two years ago? Did you even notice? A lot of our goods come from New Jersey, too.
And how does keeping the bridges free keep the city "open and accessible?" Free access between boroughs isn't a right. There's already a $5 toll to get between Queens and the Bronx, and a $10 toll to get from Brooklyn to Staten Island.
I am against any type of toll or fare increase period. Fuck the MTA and their bookcooking accountants. They hold the city hostage every few years to make extra money for themselves. They throw out deficit figures like it is a game of monopoly. The subways are a crumbling mess. Where has all of the money gone for maintaining them? Why is every project they are in charge of guilty of costly delays and price overruns? Why isn't their more outrage from elected officials over what these thieves propose?
Where did the money go? The same place your money and my money went - down the tubes in this recession. They rely on real estate for revenue, and the state shortchanged the MTA years ago, forcing them to take out bonds that are now coming due. They don't just pull these figures out of thin air. In fact, their financial statements are all on their web site.
So, what do you figure we do? Screw the people who rely on transit every day and do nothing?
Do you work for the MTA? You are pretty quick on the draw with facts and figures
No. I hate the MTA just as much as you do, but I took the time to research this crisis enough to realize that they're not entirely to blame for this. Too many people remember the whole "two sets of books" fiasco, but forget that it was six years ago, the courts exonerated the MTA, and an entirely new management is at the helm.
I agree that the MTA needs reform, but that will take years. Blaming them isn't going to solve the crisis that's looming in the next two months.
You make too much sense, what are you doing here? :)
Thanks for hating the MTA though...
That telethon link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5DBMwuFa6w) is amazing!
I'm in favor of the tolls, but as a transit rider, I don't think the funds should go to the MTA. I don't like the idea of taxing one group to shovel it over to another. I would prefer they use toll funds specifically to repair and maintain these roads and bridges.
At the same time, however, I feel that if the tolls are not put in place, they should basically just stop repairing the roads and bridges altogether. The Verrazano-Narrows, the GWB and the Hudson tunnels (among others) are tolled, and presumably these funds are funneled back into maintenance (I know this is idealistic as there is probably a lot of waste). Do the same with the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges. If the tolls are not put in place, let them deteriorate, and when drivers start whining, tell them to pay up. They could always take the BBT.
If you're a transit rider, you should understand that your tax dollars already go to subsidize a driver's commute by helping to maintain the roads and bridges he drives on. Gas taxes and vehicle registration fees barely scratch the surface of what it costs to maintain highways and bridges. The rest comes from the taxes that you and I pay along with every car owner.
The state already shovels our tax dollars to another group. If the millions of transit riders who pay to subsidize roads had even a small portion of their tax dollars diverted to the MTA, we'd have a world-class subway system.
I agree, but the tax dollars of those who only drive also go the the public transit system. Proportionally speaking, though, I agree with you that those who drive pay less per person to maintain their system versus those who take public transit to maintain theirs. That's also why I think these tolls, if implemented, should only go towards roads and bridges.
As someone who takes transit and owns a car, I've always been in favor of a larger fee for annual car ownership. As it stands, the annual registration fee is too small (something like $40-60 I think?). It should be around $300-500.
I think we agree that the tolls should be put in place, but we differ on where that money should go. Of course, I'd be happy either way - I'm just afraid of how the money will "disappear" if the MTA is in charge of shifting money from tolls to the subway.
Toll them, they had a free ride for too long already and I hate when they state they pay for gas and parking already. that is the cost of owning a car but they need to pay fair share of the maintain of the roads and bridges. I hardly drive yet my taxes are used to repair roads and bridges. We need to all share the burden. In the end all these mess is due to the rotten city council and politicians who didn't plan ahead. Why has all the money gone? During the high economic boom, why wasn't our money used to repair the tracks? All our money went to Bloomberg's rich developers to build their skyscrapers with low interest guaranteed bonds. Nothing build for us. shame on
Bloomberg and Christine Quin
Dammit, Felix, stop making me agree with you!
This is very illuminating, since these random subway and bus riders are among the nation's foremost experts on both transportation management and economics. They definitely know what they're talking about.
Why would anyone be in favor of tolls? All tolls should be abolished and the cost free! They were put in place originally to pay for the cost of building them. They were all paid off years ago. The New York State Lottery is supposed to pay for their upkeep as well as the roads (in addition to public school funding). Putting tolls and raising them effects all of us in the long run whether you own a car or not. It will raise the costs at your supermarket, your retail outlets and other services. It all trickles down just as it did when gas prices went up last summer.
The MTA is always getting a pass instead of being held accountable.
The Lottery funds roads?! Check your facts:
Ah yes as a state employee who knows, I'll take my cue from you and your link which couldn't possibly be the lottery's spin, could it? How about this link, although 11 years old it's an official report that tells the truth about the 100 percent claim and the info in it still rings true today. http://www.osc.state.ny.us/reports/schools/1998/4-98.htm
If it costs an extra 8 bucks to drive a truck full of produce across the East River (which is actually just a tidal estuary), then I think we can handle the fraction of a penny increase in the cost per pound of our tomatoes, particularly given that in Manhattan we're already paying some of the highest prices around. This Grocery Store argument is a non-starter. Try again, Escalade-owner!
Obviously you don't know that it costs these trucks significantly more than a 4 wheel car to use these crossings. It's not the standard toll. You try again.
The unfortunate thing about all this is that the proposed plan to charge tolls on the bridge will be in effect very similar to the congestion pricing plan Bloomberg wanted last year. The key difference was that congestion pricing would have qualified NYC for federal money TO BE USED TO IMPROVE MASS TRANSIT. Now what we have is a situation where drivers will still have to pay to enter the city, but we can't get the federal grants because its been allocated to other cities. Shame on the city counsel for voting that plan down; we're stuck with all the disadvantages, and none of the advantages....
I'm just sayin'