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In an effort to please both environmentalists and animal rights activists, while still keeping the carriage horse drivers in business (albeit sans the horses), Councilman Daniel Garodnick is pitching eco-friendly replicas of vintage Model T Fords as a replacement of the horse drawn carriages (an idea that has been brought up in the past).
The NY Post reports that the proposal, which would be great for eco-tourism, may go before the City Council as soon as this Spring, and a rep for PETA "said the plan is to develop electric or hybrid cars, which would tour the same park course that horse-drawn buggies use now—and could even be driven by current carriage operators."
Meanwhile, Councilman Tony Avella still needs to get the carriage horses banned before a replacement is put into effect—and while Avella supports the car plan, spokeswoman for the Horse and Carriage Association, Carolyn Daly, does not. She calls the proposal "absurd" and notes that the drivers "have dedicated their lives to horses." When the Model T plan was brought up last year Daly declared, "No one wants to replace clip-clop, clip-clop with chitty chitty bang bang."
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That is an amazing idea
Random Note
The Model T gets over 20 miles to the gallon
It is completely absurd that this was not improved up in 100 years of automobile technology.
Actually, this has improved greatly in 100 years of automotive technology, you just aren't comparing apples to apples. The horsepower output of a Model T engine is about 20 hp. If you were to make an engine today the same displacement as the Model T engine and restricting it to the same power output but instead use all the modern fuel-saving and efficiency-improving engine design techniques, and install it in a modern aerodynamically designed chassis roughly the same weight as the Model T (1200-1500 lbs.), it would FAR exceed 20 mpg. It would also be very very slow.
Modern cars, largely due to the "necessity" for creature comforts and safety features, are porkers with a typical family sedan weighing around 3500 lbs. which is a huge increase even from the mid-'90s. Airbags, side impact door beams, navigation and entertainment systems, power everything, all this stuff weighs a lot. More weight to push around means more power is required and more fuel is required to make more power.
What's amazing is that you can take a 3500 lb. car, put a 240hp V6 in it and still get 19 mpg city/29 mpg highway (thinking of the Honda Accord in particular here). That's where your 100 years of automotive development has gone.
If you want super high mpg vehicles, the formula is pretty simple - engines tuned for fuel efficiency (and lower power as a result) and light weight (this means giving up a lot of the creature comforts we have grown accustomed to and/or moving to expensive lightweight construction materials like carbon fiber).
Back in the '60s and '70s, Volkswagen Beetles easily achieved 40 mpg with an inefficient, air-cooled, carbureted gasoline 4-cylinder engine. They weren't even particularly aerodynamic, but they were very lightweight and had 35-40hp. If you had a modern car with that weight and you put in a modern fuel-injected, water-cooled engine with the same power output I'd imagine you could easily get 60 mpg. But the question is where is the market today for a car that takes 25 seconds to get to 60 mph and tops out at 75 downhill with a tailwind?
Cue felixthecat in 3...2...1...
I'd call your comment prescient, but...
hahaha
We need LESS cars, not more. More working animals would be a greta thing, if regulated and enforced properly.
It is not regulated and not enforced properly as per audit report. Thompson reported the rules are stale and broad to ensure the welfare of the horses
http://comptroller.nyc.gov/bureaus/audit/PDF_FILES/MH07_092A.pdf
Council Member David Weprin is pushing for a bill that not only increase their rates from 34 for 1/2 hour to 54 for 1/2 hour even though the national average hourly rate is under 19 dollars per U.S. dept of Labor. Also it will remove oversight from the ASPCA since they don't want the ASPCA since it spoke against the industry but the ASPCA did it job and spoke against the cruelty and inhumane conditions.
It's no wonder that Weprin would rather talk about the carriage drivers than his record dealing with financial issues facing taxpayers.
Under his watch, New Yorkers faced the highest tax burden of any American city for years and the cost of municipal government consistently went up each year.
No one, including Weprin, had the courage to automatically adopt last year's budget and spending levels. There was no real fiscal reform to restrict any new spending below the rate of inflation or adopting the principle of pay as you go.
Weprin never developed any plans to reduce municipal long-term debt.
New Yorkers might be better off if he became a park ranger instead of comptroller.
Sounds like we need better regulations and enforcement then, not an outright ban. Again, we have enough cars as it is, quaint and cute or otherwise.
Keep the horses inside the park.
I don't understand what's the big deal?
Both sides can claim victory.
it is not a victory for the horses. Also the drivers don't only ride the horses near the park, they ride them around Rockefeller center, Times Squre, Herald Square. We put these horses in such inhumane conditions for the sole purpose of entertaining some tourists. It is Inhumane and wrong.
Why is the city protecting an industry that is not profitable for the city and the drivers' lack of professionalism and the cruelty give tourists an bad image of the city. the city can ban this industry and open the market for the private sector to create more tourist-related jobs that will make reported income for the city and create jobs for legitimate NYC residents.
Also Tony Avella for Mayor because he took a brave stance despite all the verbal insults and threats hurled at him by the carriage drivers. If you view those channels, you will see drivers harassing pedicabs driver, activists. etc. the same lobbyists for the carriage industry has lobby for the bill against the pedicab industry since they don't probably want the competition.
will it have the waaa oooo Ga! sounding horn?
eh, i'm lukewarm to this but i'm sure it can be
fun to ride it around the park at a leisurely 10-15mph.
fuck a stupid ass model t.
what a stupid idea.
what kind of six flags bullshit is that?
The other big question is what will actually happen to the horses if they are banned or replaced? I don't think dog food factory is in keeping with the goals of the animal rights movement. I just want to see the horses happy and well cared for whether or not they are working animals.
the carriage horses have no mandatory retirement home. the cycle of cruelty has to end. Also people will rescue the horses. they are not fighting to kill the horses, they are fighting to save them. read the audit report and it flags the lack of tracking of these horses. Where are all these HUNDREDS of horses gone from the service rolls? I say there were shipped to slaughter most likely.
they should have human-pulled carriages, planet of the apes style.
the rich and corny can have their romantic nyc experience and the poor can have some service industry jobs, maybe a nice warm stable too.
lmao-great idea!
They better be replicas. The original Model T's have totally different and quite complicated controls compared to modern automobiles.
by fun, I meant in a I'm in a parade of one fun.
next will be those miniature cars and fezs.
There were horses and carriages for hundreds of years in NYC and no one cared.
Starving humans in India and elsewhere live in squalid conditions and resort to pulling people in rickshaws to earn a living to feed their children.
PETAphiles should spend time and energy helping starving and oppressed humans. What kind of species, what kind of human being, ignores its own?
Who said anything about ignoring people? This is a bill that would provide even more lucrative jobs (and the proposed cars are to run on biofriendly fuel). This story doesn't pertain to poverty in India or New York, but instead is devoted exclusively to ending the cycle of cruelty that exists right in our own city. Where do you think the horses go when they're all "used up" and the industry can no longer make money off their backs?
By the way, Google "Lorenzo Riccobono" and see how many cruelty violations come up. Then consider the gruesome death of his horse Spotty, a New York City carriage horse whose life ended after a spooking accident in midtown Manhattan.
Why are you so worried about horses, when there are suffering humans in this city, let alone the world?
Get your priorities in order.
there are suffering humans in the world, so let's all abuse animals!! makes perfect sense.
You are not making sense. Compassionate people help animals as well as people. These goals are not mutually exclusive. My priorities are in order. Are you suggesting that until people have no more problems, it is right to look the other way when animals are suffering?
I didn't think so. (giving you the benefit of the doubt).
Bullshit, most PETA couldn't give two shits about the bum passed out in the doorway but HOLY SHIT if they see a alley cat rummaging through the garbage.
Fuck all you hypocritical douches.
The Edge is a jackass.
I hope you get reborn as a horse 'put out to pasture', confined to a life of dragging fat-ass tourist around a cold cement city, while your alcoholic owner whips you and feeds you rotten grain. Or some idiot teenager throws his cigarette at you while you're running circles in 95 degree humidity.
You'll get yours Edge, without a doubt.
You're tiresome and your endless rants about PETA don't really help your argument. (Just what is your ongoing obsession with PETA anyway? You obviously have some major issue with them.)
More than a hundred years ago, Henry Bergh founded the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). (Coincidently, Bergh was ALSO the co-founder of the Child Protective Society in the US.) He championed the rights of animals and children and was known for beating the owners of horse-carts with the very whips they used to beat their horses. Henry Bergh is buried in historic Green-wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, NY.
Terrific idea. They should make the drivers wear giant leather goggles and scarves.
If PETA wins this one, will they change their name to People for the Ethical Treatment of Automobiles?
It is about the horses and we want them to win. what a heartless misinformed person
Good idea, but I agree that it could be something more eco-friendly like old-fashioned bicycle-driven rickshaws.
I can't wait to hear (not really) what Liam Neeson has to say about this.
Let everyone walk around-what a bunch of lazy, disgusting slobs in this town.
Walk? In a park? What are you, un-American?
STUPID STUPID STUPID.
If PETA is so concerned about animals, and so hateful of people, then let's harness up Ashley Judd and have her pull a carriage around the park.
your remark is stupid. caring for animals is not hating people.
It's a clever idea, I guess, but I disapprove of giving in to PETA in any way, shape or form.
I think bringing in REPLICA Model T's would just turn Central Park into a Disneyworld ride. I really don't give a shit about the horses, but fake "authenticity" really bugs the shit outta me. It's more of that Midwest Applebees Cheesecake Factory manufactured "All Americanism" crap. This city is going to turn into a fucking applebees. FUCK THAT.
I agree entirely. I'd rather not have anything at all. Honestly, these drivers just need to look for new jobs. Do you hink all the chimney sweeps had any say in matters when wood and coal burning stoves were replaced by central heating? The whole thing is absurd. Either regulate and enforce the industry so that it is done humanely, or if that is not possible, shut it down. Let the fat midwesterners rent bikes, their trip to NY can serve as a way for them to get in shape.
"No one wants to replace clip-clop, clip-clop with chitty chitty bang bang."
Maybe not, even though electric Model Ts would just have the faint whir of electric motors rather than chitty chitty bang bang, but I'm sure most people wouldn't miss the stench of horse poop where the drivers park their carriages.
Pedicabs or rickshaws would be much better.
no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitty_Chitty_Bang_Bang
What is that supposed to mean? Are we supposed to read your mind? "No," followed by the name of a familiar movie is all you can write. So what?
I don't know -- the pedicabs in the park can be a real obstacle to pedestrians, particularly when driven by half-crazed former bike messengers. Plus, there's something unromantic about sitting behind a sweaty man's ass as he digs hard to drag fat midwesterners around.
Oddly, I kinda like the Model T idea -- it offers the same romantic bullcrap that tourists like, without the stinky animal (horse or dude). But I also think they should have more prominent (and much cheaper) city-sponsored bike rental.
I doubt even Lance Armstrong would be able to zoom around while hauling over 400 pounds of pedicab and passengers as you seem to imply. As for the driver, I've always felt that current pedicabs are ass-backwards. There's no reason the driver can't be sitting high and behind the passenger cab, giving them an unobstructed view and easier ingress and egress. Sort of like the old ice cream trikes. I've actually seen a couple of pedicabs with that design, although not in NYC.
In other news, the price of horse meat has declined 4% in early trading today.
One person, who goes by Felixthecat, was seen purchasing what one reported referred to as "buttloads" of this delicious delicacy.
And now, Ollie with your blackuweather forecast:
Ollie?
valieriob,another person who appears to speak on behalf of the horses cruelty. I not eat horse meat.
This is what Council member Weprin bill does:
In addition to not paying sales tax, the industry is cash-only. What other revenue are the taxpayers losing? Why isn't Weprin representing the interests of taxpayers?.
The bill will weaken accountability--the industry will be self-regulating if the ASCPA's oversight is taken away.
Under Weprin's watch,New Yorkers faced the highest tax burden of any American city for years and the cost of municipal government consistently went up each year.
No one, including Weprin, had the courage to automatically adopt last year's budget and spending levels. There was no real fiscal reform to restrict any new spending below the rate of inflation or adopting the principle of pay as you go.
Weprin never developed any plans to reduce municipal long-term debt.
And Weprin wants to be comptroller?
Will they be serving foie gras is those model t's?
Great idea! But would Stanley Steam-Powered Cars be even better?
see these channels on youtube that have videos of the horses and why a ban is needed
http://www.youtube.com/user/horsesinnyc
http://www.youtube.com/user/donnyfmoss
Saw them all. Mostly real boring. I was expecting Faces of Death and all you gave me was Afternoon Ride in the Park.
So you think a horse carriage in traffic is cruel? Wow. I suppose you find the pedicab in traffic inhumane. What must you think of bicyclists. Oh, the horrors of pedestrians!
Now there was one. Those carriage drivers are funny. Dishing out the smack like good, oldtime New Yorkers. I tip my hat to them.
Jesus, is "eco-tourism" really a thing??
but those videos at least show the whole picture instead of the industry always posting only pictures of the horses in the park and not in the congested traffic around the city and around the areas on 11th ave where they are housed.
What happens to the horses after the ban? If all those people are going to lose their jobs who's going to take care of the animals? Or is PETA going to step in so they don't end up at the slaughter auctions?
most of the time they end up in slaughter auctions as it is, after they can no longer pull carriages. It is rare that any of the drivers gives the horses sanctuary. If this business continues, there will be more and more horses facing this fate.
PETA is in it for the publicity and the money. PETA kills animals. In 2007, it killed 90% of the animals in its care.
Don't believe it: visit petakillsanimals.com
(p.s. Watch all the PETAphiles who suffer from OCD come out and attack me personally and the website as well.) The truth hurts little people with little minds.
Believe it or not, not everyone who believes in animal rights is a supporter of PETA's methods, which can sometimes be counterproductive to the cause. But if they are working to end the horse carriage industry, then good for them, their help is appreciated.
Horses have been used by humans for millennia, now all of a sudden that is wrong. Another case of political correctness and misinformation run amok.
If the century-old horse carriage industry is closed, will you adopt a horse, marcy? If PETA does, there is a good chance they will be euthanized since that seems to be an m.o. of PETA. So we don't want that to happen.
If you are not willing to adopt a horse, you shouldn't expect others to do what you are unwilling to do.
You're tiresome and your endless rants about PETA sound like a broken record.
The real "facts" are that horses have been abused for ages. More than a hundred years ago, Henry Bergh founded the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). (Coincidently, Bergh was also the co-founder of the Child Protective Society in the US.) He championed the rights of animals and children and was known for beating the owners of horse-carts with the very whips they used to beat their horses.
Henry Bergh is buried in historic Green-wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, NY.
They should Keep the horses in the park, and stop automobile traffic from going through the park.
How about requiring the horse carriage industry to get it's horses from owners or horse rescue groups who cannot afford to feed and take care of their horses?
This way the horses can be rescued. Because giving to charity has been going down, I am not sure if the existing horse rescue groups will be able to afford to rescue more horses on their own.
Congress recently banned horse slaughterhouses, so some owners will now have their horses shipped to Canadian slaughterhouses or vets, both of which may cost money in vet bills or stressful travel to Canada in a truck for the horses.
This is a great idea!
Just forgo all this bullshit and cruise the park in a limo and throw the empty Cristal bottles out of the sunroof.
THANK YOU, COUNCILMAN GARODNICK -- USING HYBRID CARS GETS THE CARRIAGE INDUSTRY OUT FROM UNDER ATTACK FOR ITS PRACTICES, KEEPS THEM FROM LOSING JOBS, IT'S GOOD FOR TOURISM, CHILDREN, THE HORSES, THE ENVIRONMENT -- AND NYC. CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THE PARK FROM A MODEL T!
how about we just ban toursim. that will take care of so many things.
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this, but the #1 reason I'm in favor of this is getting rid of the smell. Living in NYC has many advantages over living in the suburbs/rural areas, and not having to tolerate the smell animal feces is usually one of them. I think it's disgusting while walking through Times Square or the southern edge of Central Park to get a big ol' whiff of horse shit.
There's no reason why we should have horses still wandering around the streets of New York City. If you want to see pretty horses, take a freaking train to a farm and make sure to shower before you come back.
http://www.r8ny.com/blog/smoothie/dissection_of_a_carriage_horse_proposed_into_bill_653_a.html
Sponsors: Stewart, Koppell, Weprin, Felder
Section 1
subsection J: the stables will be inspected by a single entity designated by the commissioner....and shall be certified by the NYS health Assurance Progam
Problem with subsection J: per the Comptroller Audit Report dated June 27, 2007, the commissioner failed to enact the Advisory Board, since the enactment of the statute 1980s, to recommend specific regulations necessary to promote the health, safety and well-being of the horses. As a result of the commissioner failure to establish this board since 1980s, regulations promoting the health,safety, and well-being of the carriage-horses remain broad and general in scope. Therefore, The Advisory Board and not the commissioner should designated this single entity which should be the ASCPA since the ASPCA, not the commissioner office, is authorized by State humane laws to enforce the State humane law.
Another problem with section J is The Department of Agriculture's Division of Animal would not be "overseeing" the carriage horses/stables in any regulatory manner. The Stable owners themselves elected to participate in the NYS Horse Health Assurance Program in order to be provided with a structure and guidelines for the managing of their facilities and caring for the horses. The program is strictly voluntary and each stable would be worked with individually if they decide to proceed with certification.
Therefore the industry will be self-regulated and the ASPCA will no longer inspect the stables since the ASPCA supported the horses in the hearing and not the carriage drivers and this is payback.
sub section N: Horse will be examined by a vet only once a year
Problem with Section N is again-what are the recommendations of the advisory board that was established last year to meet quarterly. NYC Comptroller report found the Veterinarian never went out to the field to examine the conditions of the horses and the veterinarian spend on average 25 minutes for each inspections. the Audit report believes it was limited time available for the veterinarian consultant to observe the overall physical conditions of the horses. this section does not ensure at all the well being of the horses.
sub section q:horses not younger than 5 nor older than 20 years of age put on service.
Problem with subsection q is that it only address the age limits mentioned in the audit report but not the size of horse stalls nor ensuring that horses are not switched such as an electronically identified permanent unalterable ID. The audit report found differing information to describe the horses even gender in one case. It Doesn't address mandatory retirement home at all for the horses after they reach their age limit
Section 2: rates will be increased from $34 to $54 for the first half-hour and from $10 to $20 for each additional fifteen minutes.
The problem with section 2 is not only the overcharging of tourists (shown in videos) but it is a cash only industry and the city and the taxpayers don't benefit and there is no guarantee or assurances that it is for the cost and upkeep of the horses. Doesn't address mandatory retirement home at all for the horses.
section 3: for a 6 month probationary license, the carriage is restricted to areas immediately adjacent to Central Park
the problem is that the horses don't belong at all in traffic even if the license has past his probationary period. Also the lack of enforcement and oversight.
Council member David Weprin is firm on his support for this bill. His support for this bill demonstrate he will not be a good comptroller at all for us.
Please contact this other council members and ask them not to sign unto Intro 653-A which will decrease oversight. And if you would take a step further then ask them to support Intro 658 which will ban the cruelty. Not only are the conditions inherently inhumane but the city has no regard for these horses. lets end the cruelty
here are the council members to call:
Charles Barron: 212-788-6957
Leroy Comrie 212-788-7084
John C. Liu 212-788-7022
Oliver Koppell 718-549-7300 (note that he supports intro 653 which will make conditions worse for the horses)
Kendall Stewart 212-788-6859
Simcha Felder 212-788-7357
And if these council members condemn these horses then do ever vote for them. they don't deserve to be in office.
Today Now! welcomes adventurer and balloonist Trent Montague, who is determined to steer the conversation to the horrors of horse abuse.
Today Now! welcomes adventurer and balloonist Trent Montague, who is determined to steer the conversation to the horrors of horse abuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv6Be-fdBs4&feature=channel_page