Carriage Horse Debate Goes to City Hall

Holy Name Parish Rectory

Neighborhood: Upper West Side, Manhattan

207 W 96th St

Father Brian Jordan who didn't support justice for Abner Louima and now not for the horses is no longer in charge of immigrant in 34th st. frances but now in west 96th st. I wonder why?

About six years ago in midtown manhattan I was waiting for a light at a crosswalk, when a horse carriage traveling at a ridiculously unsafe speed made a sharp turn around the corner coming from behind me. His carriage swung wide, and actually clocked me to the ground. A bunch of people clustered around me and helped me get up, and when I got up and felt fine, I went up to the carriage drive and asked for his insurance information just in case. He just took off! And I found that his license plate on the back of his carriage was intentionally obscured with some kind of masking tape.

Everyone around me was telling me I should file a police report, but I really just didn't think it would be worth it. Later that day my shoulder started to swell up so I ended up going to the hospital just to make sure it wasn't broken or worse, they just checked my range of motion and told me to ice it, so I guess I was lucky. Still, I had to pay an emergency room visit out of pocket, which wasn't fun. Anyway, ban these fuckers.

infomofo, you should testify at the next hearing for the horses' sake and the pubic safety. yes, there are many unreported accidents.

And some of those horses are lamed. look at how they stand to relieve pressure from their bad leg. shame on NYC for this abuse.

The drivers abuse their horses and they harass people who videotape such abuses. they even harass the pedicabs because they don't like the competition. The abuse their horses. At the hearing they spoke mostly about how they need their jobs but then let them find jobs. NO need to have those horses abused with no life except tied to a carriage and then tied to a stall . they are even in times square at night. these drivers love MONEY and not those horses.

It is sad to read about those who plead for the suffering of these horses yet they know so little. First I would like to say that many of the horse love what they do. My horses run to the gate waiting to see who's turn it is. They are not only loved by my family but the public that comes to see them. If these horses didn't love what they do, you couldn't make these large animals move a step. Second many of our large horses are becoming extinct because of the economy and because of people with good intentions that "rescue" them only to find that they can't afford them and the horses become neglected, starved and yes abused by these good do'ers that have no clue what these horses are about or the cost for care. By the way turning out horse to fend for themselves is nothing more than neglect, abuse. They end up suffering a sad and traggic death that no animal should have to suffer, beside that there is no great lands that is filled with free range grass, free medical for horses and an abundance of fresh clean water and where do most people think that these horses will get their feet trimmed, at the local free trimming shop. With out proper care these horses feet will grow so long that they will end up crippling a horse in less than a year. Putting shoes on a draft with shoes, pads and farrier costs runs about $600. per horse every 6 to 8 weeks. I know I have 11 horses I have rescued and it is very expensive very time I have to have them done. Money doesn't grow on trees and farrier, vets and feed costs are'nt free. And lets not forget about those who rescue them to turn into back yard pets with no clue on how to handle them and get hurt. Not out of meaness from the horse but because of stupidity of those who have no clue. Because of the cost of land, property and ranches it isn't cheap to find property that is sizable to care for these animals. It is not about the profits because there is very little profit in the carriage business, if any and I haven't seen a profit in years. You have to love what you do and take pride in your horses. Many horse's are starving because of the economy. People can't afford to feed or care for them and believe me it is expensive and a lot of work caring for these animals. I don't see anyone handing over money to care for these animals or even educating themselves about what great animals they are. I appreciate many concerns for our horses and others. So I will try to help them understand about the strength of these beautiful animals we love greatly. Most working horses are bred for strength and power and are working in their prime. The drafts horses weighting about 2,400 lbs can pull three times their own body weight. The carriages with a guest in it is nowhere near that amount. Usually fiberglass bodies, light weight tubing. Many of these horses have former jobs, logging and spend their whole day pulling hugh logs off a mountain.

In our business our horses work an average of 3 evenings a week, about 3 to 5 hours a night, and a lot of that time is spending standing at a carriage stop waiting for a ride. You will find that most carriage companies that love their animals will always have buckets of water for their horses and the horses drink at the stop whenever they are thirsty.

When complaints about the heat, again they are not educated. Horses are like people and they are acclimated to the area they live in, snow, heat or what ever the tempture is. Horses body tempture is 101 degrees and are comfortable up to 110 degrees. Horses should not be blanket until the outside temptures reach below 30 degrees.

Many of the owners treat their horses like family and at home they have their own personal space and a community turnout with big shade trees to stand under.The public are not usually allowed to be on these ranch's because horses do need time away from their jobs to be horses and it is not fair to always have the well meaning public around when all the horses want to do in their spare time is buck, play and kick each other and just be horses without being maulled by the public. We love our horses and take the best of care of them that we possible can. We like many large horse owners know each horse's personality, character and limits well, and never ask more of them than they are capable of giving us. They are bred to pull and love what they do. Without a job they get depressed and sad and many go hungry because they can't make an income. Many of those who shout rude things never stop and talk about the care or want to educate themselves. We call them hit and run. They wouldn't dare stand up for what they say. Kinda like stabbing our horses in the back. Pretty Chicken and the lowest forms of human foul. They should go on Utube and put in a search for horse pulling competitions. Look at the horses' ears, they are foward and eager. Watch the owners, they are not touching the animals, just shouting encouragement. Pulling is what draft horses do, and they love to pull.

We would never mistreat any of our animals and if the public really look at the horses they will see not from a predjuce eye but from an eye of loving and respect (which is what they deserve) that these horses are not struggling, not suffering that they love what they do and enjoy sharing themselves with people that would otherwise never get a chance to be around one of these most gracious creatures of god.

They deserve the respect. But those with the lack of respect are the ones cutting off the horses in traffic, or hanging their head out of their cars yelling profanity and honking their horns to get our attention. If our horses weren't so well respected and loved by their family this form of terrorist tactics would scare the hell out of our horses. Yes we show them that siren's are something that they should not fear. But horse are like people. Sometimes they get startled but they should have the respect of the public and more should be concerned about what their bad driving habits are and respect the road when a horse and carriage is on it. After all it is also about the safety of the passeneger, the safety of the horse and the safety of the driver.

I wish all those with horses the best and for those who don't like our horses. Well you don't have to ride but you have no right to be uneducated, unkind and disrespectful.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6634701

Dear people

Please help end the suffering of these horses. call your council member and tell them to support 658 to ban horse drawn carriage and oppose 653A which will increase drivers rates and decrease oversight. one phone call can make a difference. here is a link to know who is your council member

http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml

Anyone who cannot (or pretends not to) see the difference between enslaved horses breathing fumes all day and slogging up and down the busy NYC streets and a pet that sleeps on a bed in an apartment and is cared for like a child is just being troublesome and argumentative. No one is talking about giving these horses a salad bar and Egyptian cotton blankets, just not treating them like garbage for the enjoyment of humans. Just like the circus elephants clomping through Times Square to the delight of uncaring humans.

The lack of empathy that some of these posters' have for the horses' suffering is troubling. It is wrong and immoral to tolerate this practice, and the horse and carriage industry should be banned. Yes, there are many other examples of animal cruelty that should also be banned, but they have to be dealt with one situation at a time.

Jeez, just compare those poor, broken-down carriage horses to the healthy, sleek police horses in Times Square. Anyone who can't see a difference between the two must be wearing blinders.

Well, the cops' horses routinely deal with a better class of customer...

do you know that Father Brian Jordan of St francis of Assis on 34th street who spoke against he horses is the same priest who wrote a letter on behalf of the police office WHO sodomize Abner Louima. people who abuse animals abuse people. no surprise at all.

do you know that Father Brian Jordan St francis of Assis on 34th street who spoke against he horses is the same priest who wrote a letter on behalf of the police office how sodomize Abner Louima. people how abuse animals abuse people. no surprise at all.

Vanessa that would be a great idea. Stables in the park would allow children to get up close to the horses while they are resting and perhaps a small exhibition space of historic carriages from the collections of the City of New York and the New York Historical society could round out the experience. That way more people will realize how special these few remaining specimens of a long past transportation system really are.

snoopydog,

Yes, it would be a good thing to have the horses in the park with proper stables but, as felixthecat mentioned, the park doesn't want the horses so unfortunately it's not an option.

What is so special about past transportation. They can read a book or see a film. The setting is no long 18th century so they are not reliving the past. it is a time warp as if these horses were drop from the past into 21st century. lastly the park dept does not want the horses housed in the park since there is no room and there don't want the smell either since they do smell in the city. Goggle is a good thing, try it.

If there is one thing in NYC that hasn't changed much in the past one hundred and twenty five years, it is Central Park. People use to ride around Central Park in their carriages on Sunday afternoons to show off their finery. If the parks department got off their lazy ass and realized that perhaps carriage rides and stables in Central Park are a good match then there would not be much of a problem with carriages on the streets. Limit them to Central Park and create an experience outside of old Doblin carting some tourists from Toledo, Ohio on their honeymoon and seeing the Empire State Building from a horse drawn carriage on Fifth Avenue.

If they want to see the building they can go on a tour bus.

exactly show off their finery by enslaving. By finery is by moral character and critical thinking and not enslaving and exploiting others including horses.

Since when is riding a horse (or having one pull a cart) animal cruelty? Humans began to domesticate horses around 4500 BC! Is ANY work performed by an animal "cruel?" If owners are treating their animals cruelly, then penalize the owner! Why destroy an industry as historic to Manhattan?

equating these horses to pets is totally missing the point.

These horses are "machines" for these "working" people, not "pets".

Additionally,some are missing the point about the dangers for LIVING CREATURES of sharing streets with cars and other vehicles; it is NYC, a place well know for crazy traffic.

It is true that historically animals have been a source of income for humans, to the point of abuse. If the conditions mentioned can not be regulated then the abuse is the "natural" outcome of such relation of power.

Social evolution is based on attitudes and values that removes ourselves from primitive dynamics. Sustaining a nostalgic sense of reality for the sake of tradition is not good per se, is plainly stubbornness. The same stubbornness that will keep people fighting for tradition rooted in ignorance and supremacist views, while ignoring ethical stands and the consequences of those.

It is clear that these horses are not kept loved "pets", but as perishable goods for people that like to use power as their only working asset. Perhaps they should move to a 3rd world country where animal abuse is in sync with human abuse...and then the whole logic of subsistence based on abusive power can be maintained by the consensus of the ignorant.

Do you know any of us personally or our horses for that matter? Please educate yourself on what you are talking about before opening your gap and yapping slanderous lies so freely. I can PROVE that our horses are treated well and loved. Please watch this youtube channle that documents every aspect of our industry including the freaks who demoinze us like you just did in that comment. PROOF is in the pudding...

http://www.youtube.com/user/StopLiesSeeTruth

glennQNYC,

I agree with you that riding a horse or having a horse pull and carriage is not cruel. What is cruel is having these horses walk up and down 9th ave (to and from their stables) on a daily basis. What is cruel is putting skittish animals alongside crazy cab drivers in a loud, stinky, bitterly cold and insufferably hot city.

Horse carriages aren't cruel. Horse carriages in Manhattan are cruel. If the horses had stables in the park I (personally) wouldn't be making a fuss.

What is cruel is putting skittish animals alongside crazy cab drivers in a loud, stinky, bitterly cold and insufferably hot city.

So no "skittish" (however that is determined) animals in NYC? I personally know several pet owners that would be unhappy with your definition of animal cruelty.

"So no 'skittish' (however that is determined) animals in NYC?"

It's determined by observation. And, yeah, no 'skittish' animals walking along 9th Ave (I didn't say not in New York City). It's cruel.

First of all we didn't have cars in 4500 BC. those horses are in stables and keep in jail cells. no pasture for them not to mention all the shit and urine around the city. blah.

HIstory is cruel, as we evolve we progress. Tradition is a lame excuse for cruelty. do you really care about the cruelty? audit report by city even stated those horse description even gender did not match health certificates. horses are disappearing and i say they are slaughtered.

OK, so the cruelty you mention is the lack of space to roam freely? Well, we better address the cruelty of keeping a dog, cat, bird, etc. in a Manhattan apartment! Birds are even kept in cages! Maybe we should arrest bird owners for cruelty?

BTW... What do you think is going to happen to the horses after they loose their job? If you knew they would be slaughtered if they were no longer needed, would you want to keep the carriage rides?

"Since when is riding a horse (or having one pull a cart) animal cruelty?"

It's not.

But that's not the issue. The issue is that THESE horses, in this specific industry, are treated cruelly and inhumanely.

Just like eating meat is not per se immoral, while eating a cow that was tortured in a factory farm might very well be.

So the entire horse-drawn carriage INDUSTRY is cruel? Insane!

I worked for years near an urban horse stable on W38th St., and those animals were treated very well.

Having a horse perform work is not cruel in itself, so why ban it? Ban the alleged cruel treatment.

"it is disgraceful that people are finding non-essential matters in life to gripe about and to throw hard working people out of work. Animal rights? You mean, in a country that consumes more meat and kills more animals per day then most countries combined, we are somehow going to stop carriage horse riding first. You people (animal rigths people) should be glad we're not eating these horses"

Easy baby! This is a new era! Be positive!

Who are you or I to criticize those who stick up for those who can't defend themselves? God bless them. Instead of typing angry comments, they're out in the world getting things done.

Of course these horses are treated cruelly. As society continues to evolve, this'll just be another relic of our immoral past. Let's hope the city council has the balls to do the right thing.

Father Brian Jordan, a Franciscan, spoke against the horses in favor of the carriage drivers. I wouldn't be surprised he is a pedophile. Anyone reading this, please report this evil man if he touched you improperly.

was liam neeson there?

No, I guess he is still packing to move into the horse carriage stables

http://gothamist.com/2009/01/19/liam_neeson_hates_horses.php

Who is Rue McClanahan? I guess by her name she's Irish, but other than that who is she, and why should I be impressed about what Rue McClanahan thinks anymore than I do of what spiritof76 thinks?

For someone who claims he doesn't care what I think, you seem awfully obsessed with me. So how's that job search going, old man? Did you find one yet? Will you ever find one? Think anyone in today's society would hire a person who has no idea how to use Google?

LOL, good one.

I just did and it appears you are probably a fan of reruns of the Golden Girls and their sense of humor. What else do you do? Do you go to Branson, MO for your vacations to see your favorite stars perform?

Am I the only person who was impressed to read that Rue McClanahan attended the hearing? Perhaps, she can "persuade" those men who oppose the bill.

I wouldn't wipe the post with my ass. What false reporting. there were all types of people speaking against the cruelty of horse drawn carriages in NYC including a retired police officer who mention there were unreported accidents as well. People waited hours and informed the council members, that unlike council members, that they were not paid to wait. Some people as me took the day off to testify on how much cruelty we witness. shame on such heartless self-entitled people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVX-vffgOTA

Note that James Gennaro received over 6,000 dollars, over 26,000 dollar with contribution matched (our money). This pure cash industry does not contribute at all to this city. we pay to clean up all the horse shit around the city, we pay for the oversight, we even contribute to pay for Sharmock Stables to filter its stables because the smell made the kids in the school next door sick. This is sickening. This industry has a lot of money for lobbyists, lawyers, PR and yet they want more money. The industry abuses horses. in fact Comptoller thompson reported the major discrepancies between horse descriptions on record. these horses are discarded and there is no account of where these horses are. I say they were slaughtered.

In economic times such as these we face currently, it is disgraceful that people are finding non-essential matters in life to gripe about and to throw hard working people out of work. Animal rights? You mean, in a country that consumes more meat and kills more animals per day then most countries combined, we are somehow going to stop carriage horse riding first. You people (animal rigths people) should be glad we're not eating these horses. At least they get to see beautiful uptown Manhattan, and they have a purpose in life other than a horse burger or dog food. The only thing cruel, in my opinion, would be to put these carriage horse riders out of work.

Oh, and I doubt that the horses find honking horns, sirens, swerving vehicles and car exhaust "beautiful."

I'm a vegetarian and (frankly) I think eating these horses would be more humane than making them walk up and down 9th ave.

Good point. I can't remember the last time one of those horses looked happy, Even if they weren't wearing blinders, I somehow doubt they have anything resembling a human sense of aesthetics. Heck, even a lot of humans don't think Manhattan is very beautiful, as your average resident of Boulder or Carmel might tell you.

How do you know when a horse looks happy? Maybe it's a challenged horse or doesn't like to laugh a lot. Let's keep an open mind here.

It appears the Gothamist site is having problems with correlating replies to the original poster. Sorry for the insertion of my replies to Spit76 that were placed after Adeez and glennQNYC. They should have followed posts #12 and #14.

You've been watching too many reruns of "Mr. Ed the Talking Horse" spit76. How can you know what a happy horse looks like? Do you talk to them, give them an apple, or a sugar cube and they kiss you on the face? What? Just tell me what gives you the ability to tell if a horse is happy or not?

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.equestrian-life-coaching.com%2Fequestrian-article.html

Snoopydog, i google the answer to your question on how to tell if a horse is happy or not.

charlesbklyn,

During a recession it's okay to abuse animals? Huh. Didn't know. What else can we get away with just because we're in a recession?

more than a few of them are illegals as well who don't pay taxes.

They get to see Manhattan. those blinders reduces their sight by 70%. we all lose jobs and we adopt. the city has no problem rezoning harlem, china town etc and putting hundreds of people out of work. there is no excuse for abusing these horses. Have some heart and ethics and do the right thing.