Queens Gym Accused of Letting a Woman Die

The reason I can support this litigation is NOT that the club employees did not do CPR nor use their AEDs. Some panic and do not know what to do. Why this case needs to go forward is that the club employees, according to the article and a bystander, appear to have refused to ALLOW bystanders who would have been willing to help to do so.

Not having an AED, even in states that do NOT require them have resulted in nearly 10 million in losses in at least 12 cases involving athletic clubs. The only jury I can find that agreed that it was not the standard of care to have an AED and perform CPR was on a case that occured at a chain that ha lost two others for not having AEDs. The jury said that case happened in the year 2000 and we did not know as much about AEDs as we do now. Had it happened more recently the chain would have lost that case as well. In this case they had an AED but did not use or ALLOW it's use.

If you DO have an AED in the club you are usually immune from litigation for acts OR ommissions --- in this case if the club employees paniced and did not help the dying woman they would still likely have had immunity under the Good Samaritan statutes.

In this case they not only does it apear they did not help but it appears they would not allow others to help and that likely will be considered willful neglect which voids the Good Samaritan protection.

Many States have passed or are in the process of passing amendments to Good Samaritan laws that will make it clear that even if one is not currently trained or certified in the use of the AED they would be covered by Good Samaritan in the use of an AED on a non breathing patient.

Keep in mind if there is any chest movement or if the heart is in ANY rhythm on the EKG that does not require a shock within minutes of the time the rhythm started you CAN NOT make the AED administer a shock. It IS NOT POSSIBLE to shock a patient who is breathing and/or not in a shockable rhythm.

Why is it so important? The national save rate for out of hospital sudden cardiac arrest is 2% to 15%. If the club has an AED and uses it in 1 to 3 minutes from the time the heart went into the rhythm it is 70% to 90%. The cost of the unit is usually under 1000 for an AED, but can be up to 3000 if the club does not do it's homework. Still cheap for a life and a near assurance of immunity from litigation in a club death.

#21- So it doesn't work like they do in the movies?

Bummer!

To expound on pwickham, there is absolutely NO danger in using an AED. If the pulse is anything resembling normal according to the built-in EKG, they are designed so they won't even let you shock the victim. Of course they're designed that way. No AED manufacturer wants to be the subject of a lawsuit alleging their machine killed a healthy person. Worse case, you pull out the AED and attach it and it's not necessary. So the pads have to be replaced before it can be put back in storage. Not a major expense. Better a few bucks worth of wasted pads than a life lost.

if it was a sudden witnessed collapse CPR can be done hands only compressions now at 100bpm per AHA guidelines and hooking up a defib is simple enough. who knows if this was a sudden cardiac arrest - with convulsions it could have been many other things

but....better safe than sorry. worst case, the defib should have been put on as it would have done no harm. 15 minutes is too long for someone to wait for care; first aid and CPR and AEDs are meant to shore up the gap. Health clubs are a high risk area and thus many states have manadted them. IF the club had one they should have used it.

all states have good samaritan laws protecting layrescuers who use an AED -- there has never been a lawsuit won over a layrescuer using an AED when they were not supposed to -- I spend my life in this industry and I have never read of any case or seen any settlement on this issue. If someone has evidence to the contrary I would like to see it. EVIDENCE - not hearsay.

just my $.02

[10} Honestly? I'd be trying not to panic. But I wouldn't have even reached for the defibrillator at that point. I know they won't shock a person who doesn't need one, but I would not have even tried to apply the pads while someone was still convulsing. I would have done what I could to make sure she didn't hurt herself, moved her away from anything, put something under her head. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I was putting myself in that position and trying to honestly think of what I would do.

I really need to get re-certified. The reason I first got certified was being in a position where someone needed help and not knowing what to do. I never wanted to be in that position again.

^ 15 minutes. That's all I have to say to you.

@#16:

is your reference to paramedics & doughnuts necessary?

I work in the 911 system. It is a thankless job enough. Your commentary is offensive and unnecessary.

unbelievable

15 minutes is not a response time. For a person in cardiac arrest, it's a death sentence. When someone goes down with a weak or unsteady pulse, you have more like 4 minutes to get air into their lungs and after that, the brain loss begins to mount. She didn't have a chance either because the staff called EMT too late, or the paramedics couldn't drive with all those doughnuts in their system. Again, there's nothing wrong with suing to get answers for this but NYS needs to end the practice of attaching a face value to any lawsuit.

You are confusing incompetence or ordinary negligence with gross negligence. "Gross negligence" has a very specific legal definition that none of your examples fit. You need to stop getting legal advice from "Eli Stone" or "Boston Legal." For instance, instead of "When were you last certified," you'd need, "Isn't it true that the last time you took a CPR course, you failed miserably and even managed to destroy the training mannequin and set the room on fire?" Part of the intent of the law is that you don't even need to be certified. It's a Good Samaritan law to shield people precisely so liability isn't a barrier to people taking action. Long story short: as long as you don't do something astoundingly stupid, you're safe.

@12

unless it is established that such injuries were or such death was caused by gross negligence on the part of such person.

No it wouldn't get thrown out, has to go to trial to determine if gross negligence. Any lawyer is smart enough to know they have to claim that to disable the immunity.

"when were you last certified?"

"did you drink anything?"

"did you have an argument with your spouse?"

"do you have any medical conditions that would limit your strength in doing CPR or poor performance? yes, we are supeonaing your medical history, perjury is a crime sir"

It would never get that far. It would be thrown out of court immediately. Here's the relevant law:

New York State Public Health Law

§ 3000-a. Emergency medical treatment.

1. ...any person who voluntarily and without expectation of monetary compensation renders first aid or emergency treatment at the scene of an accident or other emergency outside a hospital, doctor's office or any other place having proper and necessary medical equipment, to a person who is unconscious, ill, or injured, shall not be liable for damages for injuries alleged to have been sustained by such person or for damages for the death of such person alleged to have occurred by reason of an act or omission in the rendering of such emergency treatment unless it is established that such injuries were or such death was caused by gross negligence on the part of such person.

@Spiritof76

"Finally, they may try to sue, but as long as it's evident that you were trying to help, they'd have no case. No judge or jury will believe they would have preferred that you stepped back and let them die. Stop trying to scare people away from helping."

Yea, but who wants to go through all of that trouble when they do sue(i.e. getting served, hiring a lawyer, missing work because you have to go to court to plead your case, not to mention the headache and sleeplessness you're going to have while all this is going on). Is it any wonder people avoid helping in such a situation. Welcome to our sue-happy society. Have fun and try not to die while on the treadmill.

if everyone would stop suing leftand right for dumb shit mabey people wouldnt be so afraid to help. This guy probably would have ended up at gallergers 2000 in 3 years anyway. He needs to get over it and stop trying to make money off of something that is inevatable. In case any of you forgot it called death. Come at all times at any place.

They actually kept holding classes while this was happening? Now that's heartless.

[4] So what would you do during convulsions, just watch? AEDs are automatic external defibrillators. It'll tell you if it needs to shock the patient. There's no risk in applying the electrodes and turning the machine on. If the sinus rhythm is healthy, it won't prompt for a shock. And even without an AED, somebody should have been over her, checking for respiration and pulse and making sure she's not choking on her own vomit or tongue. You don't just stand back and wait for EMTs, especially if you're certified in first aid. If you're not going to use the skills, there's no point in having them.

Oh, and we didn't see anyone doing CPR or using a defibrilater. Such a shame.

Wow, we were there at the gym the night this happened. It was truly horrible, as you might imagine. We were going to take pilates, in fact, class even started (nobody knew when she collapsed how bad things were), but was cancelled about 10-15 minutes later when the gym was evacuated.

[1] Read the article. It's not that nobody was able to help. I'm sure somebody wanted to. The staff wouldn't let anybody get to her.

[6] Hogwash. The gym is under no liability if they let somebody else help. And you're way behind the times. Hands-only CPR works fine and both the Red Cross and the American Heart Association advocate it. No need for rescue breathing, just compressions. Finally, they may try to sue, but as long as it's evident that you were trying to help, they'd have no case. No judge or jury will believe they would have preferred that you stepped back and let them die. Stop trying to scare people away from helping.

Only 25. Way too young to go. Poor kids.

Don't blame NYSC, blame the lawyers. I imagine NYSC like many other large corporations have policies in place asking their employees not to intervene so as not to open themselves up to liability. Though cops in this city may no CPR you'd be hard pressed to find one willing to perform it as the city tells them not to.

Oh, and for the uninitiated, CPR is a very unpleasant activity. The patient almost always vomits, it's exhausting, you break their ribs, if they live they sue, if they die the family sues.

Regardless of a preexisting condition, the club is responsible for the care and safety of its members. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), is a fairly easy life saving maneuver and is something all club employees should know and frequently get trained on. The defibrillator is also something all club employees should know how to use. I find is suspect that any club employee would not allow a member to help this woman, but it also doesn't surprise me.

It's a damn shame.

I've been trained in both CPR and the defibrillator, although it's been a while and I need to be re-certified, but right or wrong I would not have attempted either while someone was still convulsing.

When a 25 y/o woman goes into cardiac arrest, more than likely there is a preexisting condition.

Perhaps she should have checked with her doctor before going to the gym?

Also for all of you so quick to blame the club, the average person with CPR training or defib training may not immediately realize this person was in cardiac arrest. She was 25, not exactly prime age for cardiac arrest.

When someone goes into cardiac arrest, they still may release some agonal breaths, which may be misinterpreted as breathing, although they are not effective respirations.

Agonal respirations are also commonly seen in cases of cardiac arrest, and may persist for several minutes after cessation of heartbeat. The presence of agonal respirations in these cases indicates a more favorable prognosis than in cases of cardiac arrest without agonal respirations.

I'm not saying the club is free of responsibility, but don't be so quick to judge.

if i was on that jury I would hold nysc liable and thats that

There was not one person at this gym who was able to administer CPR or use an AED, a very simple machine? Unbelievable.