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Early Addition
The new bike lane on Grand Street that a local shop owner recently called the possible "demise of Little Italy" continues to draw attention with complaints that fire trucks are struggling to maneuver around the new setup of the block. Ernest Lepore, owner of Ferrara Cafe who originally talked to Villager, appears to have taken his case against the lane to the Post, telling the paper, "I saw one truck back up four or five times before being able to squeeze into the lane. The firefighter was visibly frustrated."
Now Ferrara even has an anonymous firefighter on his side. A member of nearby Engine Company 55 told the Post, "It is a problem. It's something we've been talking about. We been changing our routes when we're driving around this area." But an FDNY spokesman denied that the new lane has affected response times. The FDNY and DOT have apparently been discussing the issue for over six months.
The DOT continued to support the bike lane, saying that MuniMeters with three-hour limits are being installed on the north side of Grand to keep delivery trucks moving and that No Parking zones at Grand Street intersections are coming as of Monday. A DOT spokesman told the paper, "The most important thing to emphasize is that this project is still being installed. We're still open to hear concerns from the community."
Photo courtesy Rather Be Biking.
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More whining and griping.
Really? You guys are still talking about this?
it's 1 fucking bike lane! How many dickhead car lanes do you have? a lot.
I guess Gothamist likes the banter between Detective RatherBe, thefacts, and myself.
I love this town! A fight over a bike lane. Great entertainment.
The Grand St. bike lanes are a disaster and need to be removed. It's not the first time bike lanes have caused an uproar in NYC.
Mayor Koch: The Bike Lanes That Failed
http://www.transalt.org/files/resources/blueprint/chapter4/sidebar.html
The city needs to make a stronger case for bike lanes. It appears they are underutilized and are disruptive to commerce.
#3- So do you propose that businesses have to shuffle truckloads of material from a couple of blocks away instead?
Should UPS drop your shit off at a different apartment building so you can walk--or bike--over there to pick it up yourself?
It's like cyclists don't even want to consider other people's opinions here, so as long as they've got a lane to ride down.. that most hardly use anyway.
Whitecastlerock. You're wrong. Cyclists don't kill you in accidents or choke you with smog while hogging the whole street and ruining your planet with carbon dioxide. Instead of being an idiot, you should recognize why drivers belong at the bottom of the totem pole in this city.
#10- Bottom of the totem pole?
Ha.
Like I've said before, how will your precious Whole Foods receiver their shipments then?
Make the firefighters ride bikes. Problem solved. Edge is just pissed his fat ass can't pedal for more than 20 feet without sucking wind.
#7 - UPS'll deliver - parking tickets are a business expense for UPS and every other delivery company. I've observed many a UPS driver getting into his truck while the NYPD was writing the ticket, with no word of protest.
You'd think this was the first time the city established a "no standing" zone.
I have to laugh at the "bike lanes are underutilized" comments. More people will cycle when they can expect they're going to live through it, and cyclists will use the lanes when they're not obstructed several times per block.
Not one of the Transportation Alternatives trolls who crawled over here from streetsblog addresses the fact that fire trucks (and ambulances) cannot get through, nor do they seem to care that this WILL eventually cause death and injury.
Read #12's asinine comment to understand the narcissism, immaturity and solipsism of these TransAlt trolls.
No wonder the general public is so down on cyclists.
Their philosophy: "It's all about me and this little toy between my legs."
Stupid whining. This bike lane will increase the resale value of the homes these whiners inherited from their immigrant grandparents. Sell to people who want to live in a friendlier city and move to Jersey already.
But, as a cyclist, I do have to agree: #12 is a moron.
#12- Yes, that's right I'm so fat I can't pedal 20' without sucking wind. THAT'S SO CLEVER! YOU SOOOO GOT ME THERE!
#13- UPS drivers don't give a shit about the tickets -- they're not liable for them.
UPS in general doesn't really care all too much because they're big enough to absorb the costs without batting an eye. Same goes for FedEx.
Smaller guys -- independent contractors, electricians, plumbers, etc. really can't. It's easy for you guys to say "fuck cars! go bikes!" when you hardly ever get penalized--if ever--for moving violations. Again -- you're all refusing to look at this from somebody else's perspective except for your own.
#14- This particular lane HAS been underutilized for years now. I really don't understand why folks like you and DOT think that NYC can economically survive on it's own without B&T folks coming in to spend their money here. And y'all still assume that mass transit is easily accessible for everyone else or a better means of transportation for all kinds of folks.
Let's not forget that the DOT didn't even solicit the community on Grand for their thoughts on this BEFORE going ahead with the new bike lane. You guys like to harp on that Little Italy is "dead".. but what would you rather have? More Duane Reades? California Pizza Kitchen? Starbucks? Wal-Mart? Target?
Little Italy is dead because the Italians moved out of there a long, long time ago. Since Chinatown is basically absorbing it up, there's little chance you'll see Duane Reades and Starbucks pop up along the smaller side streets.
Ambulances and firetrucks have to deal with gridlock all over the city. Show me the study or incidents that demonstrate how the bike lane at Grand has caused emergency vehicles to show up too late to save lives.
All I know is that those narrow, jumbled streets were never designed for automobiles. I'm not saying they shouldn't be accommodating to vehicles necessary towards commerce and essential city services, but bitching about the parking situation and gridlock is pointless. It's a congested part of the city whether a bike lane exists or not.
#19 incredibly writes:
"Show me the study or incidents that demonstrate how the bike lane at Grand has caused emergency vehicles to show up too late to save lives."
Don't you read the story above?:
"A member of nearby Engine Company 55 told the Post, "It is a problem. It's something we've been talking about. We been changing our routes when we're driving around this area."
We who live next to this witness it constantly. Now an FDNY is confirming that what we have observed.
Of course, your narcissistic and arrogant retort, "Ambulances and firetrucks have to deal with gridlock all over the city." indicate that you have not even visited the site.
It took one firetruck 10 minutes to navigate a turn, one Italian grocery store owner told me.
Point is: all these bike lanes have not decreased auto congestion one iota!
Finally, would the TransAlt trolls please describe to us how you would feel if your mother lived here and was burned to death because a firetruck was delayed 10 minutes due to a silly bike lane.
I didn't realize there was a totem pole in the city... All I know is that if bike riders want to ride their bikes, there are paved streets all over the city. Ride in them-watch out for trucks and turning vehicles and wear your helmet. Obey all traffic rules and you should be okay. I rarely see automobiles going down the street the wrong way or driving on the sidewalks-like many cyclists I encounter. I see more cyclists running red lights and ignoring rules of the road. Adding bike lanes to really crowded areas so someone can pedal their bike around is a waste of resources. I would rather the city focus on the amount of illegal handguns in the hands of trigger happy assholes. I am more concerned about people dying from gunshot wounds than polluted air or traffic.
Finally, would the TransAlt trolls please describe to us how you would feel if your mother lived here and was burned to death because a firetruck was delayed 10 minutes due to a silly bike lane.
It's more likely your mother will be struck and killed by some guy driving in from New Jersey to fetch a box of cannoli's and is in a rush to beat the traffic back to the Holland Tunnel.
I rarely see automobiles going down the street the wrong way or driving on the sidewalks-like many cyclists I encounter.
Except when the automobiles crash into crowded sidewalks and kill and maim a handful of people. Which happens every year in this city, along with the dozens of deaths each year attributed to automobile use. More advanced societies than ours have been in the process of removing automobiles from the streets of their old city centers now for years. Limit the personal automobiles allowed in these areas, and there will be room for the necessary commercial vehicles.
It's a difficult concept for some to understand, but the streets are not the sole provence of the automobile.
*sole provenance* (that too)
#22- Passenger-only traffic only really picks up during the evening and nights. It's fairly negligible during the day, where it's mostly commercial and emergency vehicles. Barring weekends, of course -- but most businesses don't receive shipments then anyway.
I still say Houston would have been a better place for the bike lane -- more visibility and it's a wider street. Broadway is a lot more dangerous than Houston, yet there's a big, lame, useless bus/bike lane there.
TheEdge: the reason that bike lane is underutilized is partly due to the fact that so many people double-park in it. I agree that in some ways, Grand Street is not the ideal place for a bike lane -- but I am saying this primarily because Chinatown residents have even less respect for traffic rules than the rest of NYC citizens. It seems to be a vicious circle...
One related example: for years, I fought a tire shop on Allen Street that was using the bike lane, fire hydrant spot AND one lane of traffic on Allen to fix cars (i.e. take off the wheels to replace the tires). It didn't matter how many citations they got over the years -- they just continued to do it, despite the inconvenience/danger to both cyclists and drivers.
There are a ton of businesses on Grand Street that obviously need truck deliveries etc... and of course these people do generally have to double-park and use the bike lanes (in addition to the asshats already using the bike lanes as parking spots). However, Grand Street is also a major east-west artery for cyclists. I guess what I'm saying is that I can see both sides of the problem and in this case, even though I'm a cyclist, I think that if emergency vehicles are being obstructed, it would be better to find another solution for cyclists.
Cut parking near intersections, allowing firetrucks and other large vehicles to make the turn more quickly.
And Edge, you once again state that passenger only traffic is less than commercial traffic during the day on Grand Street, which is false.
#22 Another TransAlt troll with misinformation.
DOT's, NYS DMV's, and TransAlt's websites, as well as http://www.crashstat.org/ list of dangerous intersections have not a single report of a pedestrian ever been being killed on Grand St since they began accumulating data in 1995, fourteen years ago.
Pedestrian injuries average one per intersection per month, a statistical necessity considering the millions of cars and pedestrians that flock annually to this tourist destination.
Thus your argument that some poor individual is likely to die from an auto on Grand is specious. (Why am I not surprised?) So stop with your fantasy New Jersy cannoli story. Is it any wonder that no one takes cycling zealots seriously?
On the other hand, just last month, there was a horrendous fire last month at 211 Elizabeth St just two blocks from Grand, which burned out the entire building, displacing all the residents and businesses. Over the years, I have witnessed several of these blazes in these old firetraps of tenements. Others have reported the bike lane has now been delaying FDNY and EMS emergency personnel.
So, rationalize all you want. Grand Street is a terribly dangerous experiment, when there are so many better alternatives. Fact is, there will be a dangerous fire here, sooner or later, and the FDNY will be delayed from helping people because of the selfish desire of a small percentage of the population to have their own private thoroughfare in this big city.
Oh, come on. Has anyone really looked at the traffic in and around Chinatown? Good luck getting a fire engine through the gridlocked traffic on ultracongested streets like Mott, Mulberry, Pell, Doyers and Bayard. And the intersections on those narrow streets aren't easy for fire trucks to turn onto. It's not like there's tons of available spots to park Fedex or UPS trucks on them, either. Yet I don't see "thefacts" out there screaming "get rid of some parking on those streets to make more space."
Um, also, Drewo, it's neither "provence" nor "provenance." It's province.
#26- False? Really?
The majority of passenger traffic on Grand--during the daytime--cuts from north/south, NOT east-west. Elizabeth and Mott, specifically. Most east-west traffic is commercial.
Again, do you work on Grand? Are you able to actually see the type of traffic pattern there every single day? Somehow I doubt you're on Grand more than twice a day and even then, your time there is spent less than 2-3 minutes on the stretch from Centre to Bowery. Provided you're on a bike, that is.
Do you really think Grand needs a bike lane more than Houston?
"The majority of passenger traffic on Grand--during the daytime--cuts from north/south, NOT east-west. Elizabeth and Mott, specifically. Most east-west traffic is commercial."
Most east-west traffic is NOT commercial.
"Again, do you work on Grand?"
No, I don't have a shitty job.
"Are you able to actually see the type of traffic pattern there every single day?"
Yes.
Pedestrian injuries average one per intersection per month, a statistical necessity considering the millions of cars and pedestrians that flock annually to this tourist destination
A necessity? Tell that to the person who may be consigned to a wheelchair for life due to an errant automobile. A fate that some might consider worse than death.
It's not bike lanes blocking fire trucks - it's automobiles. Considering that more than half the people that live in this area of Manhattan do not own automobiles, who is it that has a "private" thoroughfare running right through this neighborhood?
Edge - you're right. Houston would also make for a good bike lane.
Spirit - thanks.
#31- You're so full of it you probably piss brown.
Way to avoid the Houston street question too, kid.
That coming from the guy who claimed that "80-90% of cyclists" traveling on grand street use the sidewalk. And when I piss brown it'll be in your mouth.
#32- DOT said Houston would be "too dangerous" for a bike lane.
More like they've already spent too much money and too much time "renovating" Houston to add in a barricaded bike lane.
#34- If you actually reread what I said, I said 80-90% ride in the middle of the street OR the sidewalk. If you want me to reclarify, fine -- MOST of that 80-90% ride in the middle of the street OR they ride on the left (north) side of Grand -- where the original bike lane was.
So what's your take on Houston being a better street for a bike lane, hmm?
Again, FALSE. The majority of cyclists on Grand Street use the bike lane. Get new glasses, you old fart.
I agree, Houston is better suited for a protected bike lane, but that doesn't mean Grand shouldn't have one.
#37- Are you just imagining things?
If you're not there most of the day, how could you possibly claim that the "majority" of cyclists use the bike lane?
You try to laugh at my business--which has been around a lot longer than you have--when you know absolutely nothing about it at all. You pretend to be this internet tough guy bicyclist when, really, all you are is a art student who goes to Baltimore and does photography on the side.
Grand already had a bike lane. It didn't work.
That's a fact which DOT admitted.
Not that you'd really know anything about that, as I doubt you even attend community meetings.
will you guys just meet theEdge at Lendy's where he works? then have a sandwich at the Italian Food center. I never knew the Chinese were so sensitive to bicycles, I mean China and all.
I'm sorry, I must have hurt your feelings. As far as anyone on here can tell (since unlike myself, you're too afraid to put any of your info on the web) you're a sore old asshole who makes plenty of whiny, inconsequential posts that you, I, and a few others read.
I don't TRY to laugh at your business because I don't know what it is. I do laugh at you though.
The old Grand Street bike lane didn't work because asshole drivers double parked in it. The new one is protected by parked cars and sore old assholes like you can't handle it.
When I'm an old asshole like you, I hope I do something better with my free time than make inconsequential posts on sites like these. Until then, I'll continue to hurt your feelings and point out your stupidity.
Just got in this afternoon from a week in
London (first time). Spent a lotta time walking at all hours. Observations:
1. Railed, timed ped crossings work well. timed for a half-cross on busy streets, then timed for the second half-cross. Very nice & safe. NYers will never wait or use them.
2. Flashing-post ped crossings where waiting peds have right of way on less busy crossings are great (just like in Rome, etc). Drivers, bikers and peds are attentive and courteous. NYers will ignore them and they will never work.
3. Bikers wear helmets & flashing lights, obey traffic laws, stop at lights, behave well. Many, many bike commuters in London. System works well. Never work in NYC. Spandex no-brake wankers will insist on free-range biking. Peds will ignore lanes.
4. London Cabbies speak english, know the routes, are courteous and drive quite well.
enough said.
5. Tube is resonably clean, well organized and efficient. Yeah, I know, high priced and doesn't run 24H, but passenger routing (KEEP LEFT), upholstered seats, intelligible service announcements, working LED info, etc.
6. Congestion pricing works.
7. Food sucks and I will never look at Mayo again.
Just my tired observations of the evening.
Dadoc
I didn't notice the London post until just now but I was going to make a London-related comment anyhow. Over here the bike lane designs are very similar and in many cases, the streets are not as wide as those in Little Italy. Nevertheless, trick drivers, firetrucks and buses rarely have problems. They adjust to how things are and get over it.
I have to disagree with dadoc on a few things about London, since we're on the topic. Since I moved here I have come to hate the Tube. Seriously, I can't stand it. And I quite like the food.
But at any rate. If large-vehicle-drivers can manage to live with bike lanes in London, why can't they in New York?
#40- "I hope your business gets ticket blitzed"
Who said that?
Please continue to make assumptions about my age and that you're hurting my feelings. Because, no really, you're hurting me so much with your idealism.
Internets=ssssserious business
An art student from Baltimore!! LOL! Should've figured.
43 posts later, and still not one of these trolls from streetsblog or fartists from Baltimore have yet to seriously address the point of this article. They just engage in sophomoric invective.
Namely, they continue to insist arrogantly that they know more about fire safety than the crew at local Engine Company #55, who traverse this neighborhood daily since the bike lane was installed.
One more time, little ones:
A member of nearby Engine Company 55 told the Post, "It is a problem. It's something we've been talking about. We been changing our routes when we're driving around this area."
Why is that so hard to understand? So, until you sit behind a FDNY rig risking your sorry asses on the way to a fire, STFU.
#36:
Of course, they won't admit Houston would be better. What, these sycophantic, obsequious little pussies oppose the Diktats of Traffic Czar Sadik-Khan? She might stop throwing them crumbs.
I did. Actually, I should have said "I hope vehicles associated with your business get ticket blitzed."
#45- That makes a whole lot of sense. So basically because I disagree with the bike lane on Grand, you toss out hissy-fit induced gems like that?
And you call ME stupid?
Let me reiterate for the Nth time -- I do not oppose bike lanes.
However, at least for this particular street, there already was a bike lane that was hardly ever used. The DOT admitted as much. Why they decided that Grand needed a "newer and improved" bike lane is beyond me. What's worse is that they didn't even ask or consult the local community about it and refused all attempts by said community to discuss it. I believe they mentioned it to CB2 which is useless as CB2 is based in the West Village. CB2 couldn't give two shits about Little Italy and the part of Chinatown that's here. SoHo, however...
But that's another issue.
DOT didn't even tell the folks around here what was going on until they had already decided to go ahead with it. And, on top of that, they half assedly stuck flyers on residential buildings which were only printed in english. Why not include Chinese and Spanish, like they NORMALLY do?
And let's be honest, how many cyclists obey the rules of the road? Not many. There's less for them to worry about legally and financially if they clip someone on the street. They know it, you know it, and I know it. Yes, drivers have maimed and killed people, but how many of them really got away with it scott-free? And I'm not just talking about legally.. you hardly ever hear about the civil suits filed against the drivers. It seems to me that quite a few cyclists feel they're justified in clipping people, simply because "hey, they ain't dead and they probably deserved it anyway". Right?
I stopped caring just a bit when you called me a 'cuntrag', but anyway -
"And let's be honest, how many cyclists obey the rules of the road? Not many. There's less for them to worry about legally and financially if they clip someone on the street."
That's because getting 'clipped' by a cyclist usually means injury at worst, and getting 'clipped' by a car traveling at the same speed can maim and kill.
There's a failure in logic here: fire trucks and ambulances can get through more easily if there isn't a lane of parked cars. Clearly they'll ride in the lane in an emergency.
Now, if we're talking about taking out the firetruck to get some fresh mozzarella or a video. . .
Hey chub #42, as I said, tired first impressions of the day. Just found myself somewhat impressed after about 50 yrs in NYC. Give me a day or two, perspective will be restored.
Dadoc, totally understandable. Those are just my opinions. You were spot on about everything else. Although, the way things seems to be going with the MTA, the Underground is looking mighty good lately... London is a great city. The only true worthy comparison to New York.
Kind of funny, this morning I saw two firefighters riding downtown in the 9th avenue bike lane.
About the Houston Street thing: yeah, it's ridiculous that it doesn't have a bike lane. Too dangerous for a lane? Is that a real quote? I bike on it all the time, and it can be kind of scary at parts, but how would a bike lane on that massive street make it MORE dangerous? Stupid.
Little Italy should get a clue from its motherland. To anyone who says that we absolutely must have abundant automobile access on every street because if we don't buildings will burn down and the stores will go out of business and residents wont get deliveries, I have one word for you: Venice. Population: 271,251. Number of automobiles: 0. Somehow people get deliveries, fires get put out, and business thrives without any cars in the entire city.
All these people quoted have their panties in a big ol' bunch just because one street in New York got a little narrower? Please. People need to get a life. The facts has himself all in a tizzy about how a bike lane is going to cause some kind of fiery apocalypse. If Venice can run an entire city without cars, I think we new Yorkers can handle one street being a little bit narrower.
Grand Street is now just as wide as some of the streets it intersects, like Wooster, Greene and Mercer. If you're telling me that Wooster, Greene and Mercer are too narrow for FDNY as well - than obviously we have to remove parking lanes or just close the streets to private vehicles altogether, giving fire trucks unimpeded access to the whole neighborhood.
The fire department says "We've been changing our routes when we're driving around this area." Great, so FDNY has figured out that they may in certain circumstances at certain times of day or night have to take a slightly different route to access destinations at Grand Street as quickly as possible. As soon as all these screaming residents and businesses figure out that life can go on with one street being a little narrower for cars, we can all put this temper tantrum behind us and our city officials can continue trying to make our streets safer, more livable and more sustainable.
Post #53 was truly the most pathetic, ignorant and selfish post ever on Gothamist:
"(firefighters) have to take a slightly different route to access destinations at Grand Street as quickly as possible. As soon as all these screaming residents and businesses figure out that life can go on"
I would like to say too bad your sorry ass wouldn't be the one being burned, but even a shit like you doesn't deserve that fate, the fate that you would have others suffer.
Btw, read the news today. Venice is up to its knees in water.
Gothamist, can't you give an IQ test to these ignoramuses before they are allowed to post?
@54 FYI - I'm not from Baltimore. Dumbass.
Hey The facts I never knew you were the local advocate for urban fire safety. Ignoring all the unnecessary name-calling, and the complete and utter irrelevance of the natural disaster occurring in Venice, I'll spell out my point a little clearer so you can understand it better:
The buildings and streets of New York would be easiest to access for emergency vehicles if there were no cars on the road at all. The lowest possible EMS response times would be recorded on streets with no other vehicle traffic. It's all the cars in the way that are the problem. If response time is what's important to you, than I expect to see you leading a citywide campaign to reduce vehicle traffic and eliminate on-street parking. Otherwise I expect to shut the hell up and let the FDNY do their job.
thefacts trolled:
And in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE of the post:So, uh, some corners are tough to negotiate, and the FDNY has found alternate routes and response times aren't affected? Doesn't sound like such a tremendous problem to me.
JMHIvoryJive - do you always believe what the brass behind a desk tell you, or do you believe what the firemen on the job are reporting?
Also, Store owners and residents have reported fire trucks being backed up.
JMH: It would be a "tremendous problem" if you lived here, which you don't, so you can be smug and not worry about your sorry ass being burned. Shame on you.
Ivory: If you think cars are so bad, you should be the one leading the charge to get rid of them.
Why not lobby for return to horses? Perhaps your food and services could be brought to you by carriages or humped on the back of a worker like in a 3rd World country. That seems to fit your worldview.
Both of you: You don't live/work here, everyone who does thinks this lane is a disaster, even emergency workers on the job, so just butt out of my nabe and I'll butt out of yours.
Fair enough?
Facts, I live nearby and I support the lane, so again, STFU.
Of course you would support the lane, you're a fucking cyclist nut.
Anyone else, however..
I'd rather be a cyclist nut than an ignorant, whiny douchebag such as yourself.
Keep riding those bikes, I guess you need something during the day to remind you how it feels to have something big and hard between your ass.
And I'm sorry I called you a cuntrag.. cockbreath would be more appropriate for you.
Keep trying to hurt my feelings, you limp dicked little coward. I hope that bike lane outside your business becomes a constant reminder of how many times your whining failed to change anything.
Enjoy the new grand street!
Your photographs suck.. but then you're the expert at sucking anyway.
Thanks for visiting my website, buddy.
np, exercises in mediocrity are always amusing.
And rather profitable, apparently. Frees up my time to help you show the world you're a whiny bitch who can't handle change.
Yeah, I totally can't handle change.
You got me there, Detective.
Well played.
So any thoughts on how the old bike lane didn't work?
The detective thing is getting old. You know why the old lane didn't work.
Yeah because there just aren't enough cyclists biking down Grand to have warranted a lane to begin with.
Correction: "warranted this new lane"
Correction: "warranted this new lane"
You've come up with enough bullshit 'facts' about the lane and it's ridership to make anything you say more inconsequential than it was in the first place.
Once again, the lane is there now, and it will remain there. Remember to think of me every time you see it, you whiny bitch.
Yeah, I'm so TOTALLY ignorant about the amount of cyclist traffic here on Grand. Got me there yet again.
Keep taking soulless photos that can't even tell a story right.
First off, I wasn't trying to tell you a story with my photo. Second, what the fuck do you mean? Can you show me some 'soulful' photos?
(And please, none from your clan rallies or of you pleasuring yourself)
You could try to do a little more than just take mastubatory pics of your bike and bike shops.
Ex: http://www.pbase.com/maciekda/image/65544484
Hahahahaha