Obama Adviser: Before Bailout, Big Three Needs to Offer Plan

"I'm for doing nothing."

Who knows? Might be the best thing.

I know quite a few people that went to and graduated from college that don't make $45 an hour.

You'll think, I have to go to college, to get out of here-but after working 8-12 hours, you're so damned tired, you'd fall asleep at stop lights on the way home, if it wasn't for your neck hurting like hell. Then tell me if you think I make too much.

Boo hoo.

I have sympathy for your job losses, but don't pretend that your job is any more difficult than the next person's.

What do you suggest? You're not advocating simply throwing cash at them, are you?

I'm for doing nothing.

It's not Congress's job to distribute my tax monies to car companies.

[27] Sigh all you want. Doesn't change anything.

I never even implied that anyon said there were no Unions in Japan.

Oh, that must be why you wrote, "They have Unions in Japan."

The Point is: The Japanese Auto industry deals with Unions just fine. Do you Get it??

The point is the Japanese auto industry doesn't have to deal with the UAW. Do you get it? Their unions negotiate reasonably and in good faith. The UAW would scream bloody murder at any company offering a 4¢/hr wage increase, while Toyota's union only asked for that.

If they were priced a lot more due to union wages (Do you even know what the profit margin is on an IPOD??)

Actually, I have a pretty good idea. As someone holding quite a bit of Apple stock and owning a lot of Apple computers, I know as much as I can about them, including the various teardowns of iPods when they're released. Here's a little fact you may not know. The iPod nano is by far the most popular model and before that, the iPod mini. I suppose it's mere coincidence that the mini was the cheapest model then and the nano is the cheapest model today that doesn't make serious compromises like a tiny amount of storage, no display and no video playback.

They don't buy an Ipod 'cause it's cheap.

Then why does Apple price it competitively? If people will buy it regardless of price, charge whatever the market will bear. Any corporate exec, marketing man or accountant knows that. Works for Mercedes, BMW, Lamborghini, etc.

Last time (Which I have no doubt you'll just ignore): The US Auto industry is NOT selling enough cars. When people ARE buying cars they are buying more IMPORTS. That has nothing to do with the UNIONS.

Seems you're the one who can't read here. Read the first half of [10] above. And what's with all the caps? Can't make points without shouting?

We are in luck. Here's the previous version of Apple's debut into the world of automobiles.

http://www.showrods.com/flat_out_pages/imac_car.html

I just got off the phone with Steve and he says the icar is coming out soon. Wait till January for the sneak preview.

why can't apple start making cars? they need to get on this stat

Prices aren't everything. How long has it been since an American car was the car you dream about? It's now the BMW, Benz or Lexus and none of them are cheap.

^ You make too much. But not for much longer...

I am an auto worker, and a member of UAW Local 2209, Fort Wayne, Indiana.

For a long time now, I and most everyone I have worked with here, has known, that GM has never made it a habit of listening to the customer. No one wants gas guzzlers-they want cars and trucks that are fuel efficient. In fact, a lot of them, want an electric car, that can go as long on a charge, as cars go today, on a tank of gas-or longer. Do any of the car makers, foreign include, make that car or truck? No. Not one CEO is listening to the public, to environmentalists, to anyone. ANd yet, its the evil UAW worker, who has brought mighty GM to its knees.

As for the $78/hr that we supposedly make, its $29/hr, add the perks that we get (BC/BS, eye, dental), it comes to $45 an hour. Steve Miller, that rotten bastard, started all that, when he destroyed Delphi, and it seems other idiots are just repeating him. BTW, Miller started out, saying we made $60, then $70, then $80. How bit was that fish you caught, Steve?

If you think I make too much, I invite anyone to come to this plant, on Lafayette Center Rd, just off I69, and do my job for 6 months. Thats about how long it takes, for a torn rotator cuff to develope on most "easy" jobs. Before then, though, you'll have carpal tunnel in both arms. Possibly a herniated disc in your middle back. The start of arthritis in your fingers, and, you'll have sprained your wrists and thumbs at least twice each. FOr which, you'll get no time off, because although your doctor will tell you you have sprains, the company doctor, a podiatrist who is at least 75, and can't walk without a cane and his inhaler, will tell you its simple muscle strain. You'll have constant heartburn from all the Advil you take. Probably a lot of headaches from the flourescent lights. You'll think, I have to go to college, to get out of here-but after working 8-12 hours, you're so damned tired, you'd fall asleep at stop lights on the way home, if it wasn't for your neck hurting like hell. Then tell me if you think I make too much.

(sigh)

Take a deep breath "Spiritof76".

C'mon, You can do it...

I never even implied that anyon said there were no Unions in Japan.

The Point is: The Japanese Auto industry deals with Unions just fine. Do you Get it??

O and the IPOD? That was an Example of a Company making a product that people are BUYING. If they were priced a lot more due to union wages (Do you even know what the profit margin is on an IPOD??), I suspect people would still love it just as much. They don't buy an Ipod 'cause it's cheap.

Last time (Which I have no doubt you'll just ignore): The US Auto industry is NOT selling enough cars. When people ARE buying cars they are buying more IMPORTS. That has nothing to do with the UNIONS.

Get it?

"Yo Pops, let me get another $100."

"But what happened to all that money I gave you? Are you on drugs?"

"If you don't give me the money, I'm going to do crappy at school and embarass you."

Yup, sounds just like a dysfunctional upperclass family. Just keep spoiling the brats and hope they'll make good. They present us with a catch-22, and we're supposed to cave, otherwise 'we're all screwed.'

Well, maybe the massive lesson of right vs. wrong is worth it for us all.

[Columbo mode on] Oh, just one more thing. Did you know that UAW dues are about $600 a year? The Japanese were happy to get another $80 a year. If I were an auto worker, I think I'd rather just keep the $600 myself. [Columbo mode off]

[20] Did anyone say there are no unions in Japan? Get a grip. Japanese plants in America are not unionized. Get it? Do you think maybe they've opened those plants precisely to avoid more union-related costs from Japanese workers? And hey, maybe, just maybe the Japanese unions help UAW try to unionize those plants because they're taking work away from the plants at home thanks to wages and benefits that are not ridiculous. Do fine with unions in Japan? There are a lot of reasons for Japanese success in Japan, none of which have anything to do with unions. The Japanese public is even more fiercely protective and nationalistic about their auto industry. Most of them wouldn't buy American cars if you held a gun to their heads.

You may also want to check just how much union members in Japan make. They don't demand and don't get the outrageous wages and benefits UAW members do. In 2006, which is the year your article referenced, they were asking for a maximum of $17 more... per month, from a base pay of less than $40,000 a year. The article you linked to said Toyota caved to an extra 600 yen a month. Do the math. Assuming the exchange rate was the same, that would translate out to $6.28 per month today, or a wage increase of less than 4¢ an hour. Whoopee!

Oh, and the iPod you love so much? Made in China in non-unionized factories. If they were priced a lot more due to union wages, I suspect you wouldn't love it quite so much.

The foreign automakers opened their plants at sights far away from Michigan and the rust belt. They hired capable American labor and pay them a fair wage. The UAW would like to get their hooks into them but so far they haven't been able to. These workers are building better cars than Detroit because their employers are smarter.

Well, they did ask, but did they put any Guarantees into the $700 Billion?

Doesn't seem like it to me.

why didn't congress ask what was going to be done with the money before they agreed to the $700 billion?

"The auto factories that the Japanese built and run in the US are not unionized."

But you're apparently ignoring that the corporate culture is different from US Auto companies.

If they're not Unionized it's partially due to companies treating workers like yet another resource and NOT an excuse for failure. The minute the workers think they can do better under the UAW, they'll unionize as they would think it's in there best interest.

They have Unions in Japan, Bloomberg has an artcle that I found interesting.

From the article:

Toyota was the only one of the three that met its union's demands in full. Honda and Nissan did not pay as high a bonus as workers had asked for.

"We want to make sure to keep costs at a manageable level and at the same time bolster the employees' motivation,and that has been reflected in our answer to the union," the Nissan senior vice president, Hitoshi Kawaguchi, toldreporters in Tokyo.

Seems that they do fine with Unions in Japan.

Here:

"Waaaahhhh!!! We Suck and it's the Eeeeeevvvvviiiilll UNIONS FAULT!!!"

Seems to be the GOP/Corporate line more than anything else.

Look at Apple. Flat profits until they came up with the Ipod. They built something people want and ran with it.

Like I pointed out: People just aren't buying their products, Nothing more. If they adapted to what people want, instead of making BS excuses, they'd be better off.

Snoopy: "It sure does"?

Riiiiiight, the UNIONS forced GM to design and make the incredible piece of crap known as the "Trail Blazzer".

Yeaahhhh.....

"Members of Congress and the Executive branch travel on private Federal government planes. Nobody complains about them." Actually a lot of people do but no one listens.

Even if the Big 3 are bailed out, their success depends on the resolution of the original purpose of the Federal bailout: saving the credit markets.

For Congress to tell the Big 3 how they should be running their businesses is absurd. Who cares if they take corporate jets? Members of Congress and the Executive branch travel on private Federal government planes. Nobody complains about them.

$25 billion is enough to start a completely new car industry. Allowing those tone-deaf dinosaurs to die and instead, giving the billions in venture capital to entrepreneurs who have, to borrow from an old Ford ad, 'a better idea',could go much further in rebuilding our prestige as a manufacturing economy. And the UAW can get their free healthcare by moving to China.

Why is it that there are so many other jobs in the US that aren't unionized? They don't go home crying to mommy every two years asking for more and more and more? Somehow they survive.

At one time the unions had a reason for being. Not anymore.

In answer to #12 "Union Labor doesn't dictate what Cars the Big 3 Sell." It sure does, because the bean counters have to make a car that costs more to make than one using non-union labor and the non-union cars are built better. What do the bean counters do? Lower the quality of materials and construction.

This whole problem started when Chrysler started using Cordozar Calvin Broadus, Jr in their commercials.

Also,Should workers NOT unionize and simply accept the pittance given them by "Benevolent" companies?

The auto factories that the Japanese built and run in the US are not unionized. I don't hear those workers complaining about their "pittance." In fact, a lot of people would move in a heartbeat if they had a chance at those jobs, judging by the unemployment figures.

This is the automaker's plan : "we'll take the taxpayers money, do the same shit, pay ourselves the same exborbitant executive salary and float this for a year or two and then go bankrupt"

You now own Fannie and Freddie and have given the banks trillions, but they are still foreclosing on your homes and charging you loan shark rates on your credit cards. By investing in an industry that has been already executing a plan and is on the verge of a turn around with more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly products, lower manufacturing costs, and labor rates on par with their foreign competitors, you will get to keep your jobs.

The men who have done this have earned rides on corporate jets.

http://ewebsmith.com/gov/autobailout.html

"unionized labor is nothing but an albatross around the necks of American manufacturers that keeps them from competing successfully with other countries."?

Hardly. Unionized Labor is just another piece of the Supply chain, nothing more. When companies start treating them as just another supplier instead of an excuse for failure, they'll be beter off.

Also,Should workers NOT unionize and simply accept the pittance given them by "Benevolent" companies? I think not. Companies only care about making money, nothing more.

I think this mess has more to do with people NOT buying cars from the Big 3. When I purchased a new car, I looked at the Big 3 and ended up buying an import. It had nothing to do with the Big 3, I just didn't like the products they were offering. The import I bought suited my needs better.

Like many other people buying cars, it has nothing to do with Union Labor, just the product. Union Labor doesn't dictate what Cars the Big 3 Sell.

They are trying so hard to fail, lets let them. I mean, their competitors are OK (albeit not in great shape since the great unraveling, but still solvent) and are using _American labor_ as well, so what is the 'Big 3's excuse ?

The UAW having them over a barrel isn't helping. And I think the UAW will find out eventually its not good to bleed the host to death, or there won't be anything left (or anyplace to go).

Not so smart of a move. $81 / hour to build a car? are you joking?

Let them fail. How many times do they need to be bailed out? Chrysler got their bailout almost exactly 30 years ago. Then they went back to their bad habits. "If you can find a better car, buy it," Iacocca used to say in the ads. Well, people found plenty and they bought them. And if this also means the end of the greedy UAW, that's even better. This is a world economy now, and unionized labor is nothing but an albatross around the necks of American manufacturers that keeps them from competing successfully with other countries.

"Bottomless Chips", that's hardly what I'm saying.

Apparently, those three CEO's don't have a good car company business plan, do they? Other than look for Corporate Welfare, that is.

What do you suggest? You're not advocating simply throwing cash at them, are you?

I'd hope not.

OK OK we will tighten our belts and not use our private aircraft. But we insist on having the entire first class reserved for us.

Also we will assure you that our bonuses will somewhat reflect the hard economic times we are in.

Thirdly we will produce green and more fuel efficient cars by 2053. We promise we will.

Now give us our money and shut up.

Ah yes, Congress. If your expertise in automobile production is anything like your expertise in banking the automakers are doomed.

They should start by selling those jets.

I think their plan needs to include a highly competitive usp that allows them to compete will imports - like totally green cars with the absolute highest safety ratings in the world. Then just make them look badass, cost the same or a little more than imports, and they'd get back on their feet.

He's right about that. Throwing taxpayer money at the Big 3 without a plan for change would just be foolish.

So Congress knows a good car company business plan is what you're essentially saying?

Fuck no.

I'll settle for a ride on the plane. I need it wednesday evening, around 9 from jfk to dulles. I'll take the chinatown bus back to nyc, so its cool.

It is funny we are bailing these companies out and getting no special preferences like normal interest holders.

He's right about that. Throwing taxpayer money at the Big 3 without a plan for change would just be foolish.

if the automakers get my money, do I get a car?