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Looks like there's going to be a lot more ink put down on the whole public drinking debate, The NY Times has now talked to Kimber VanRy--the man ticketed two weeks ago for having a beer on his stoop. At the time VanRy said he would likely just pay the fine, but after all the attention he's now pleading not-guilty at a November court appearance.
“I think this is a real gray area. I don’t think I was doing anything wrong.” He questioned the notion that his stoop is considered a “public place” as defined by the law. “It’s one of those laws that a lot of people know it’s there, but how heavily it should be enforced is a question."The gray area comes partially from Mayor Bloomberg himself, who stated that uncorking a bottle of wine for a concert in the park is a-okay by him, not to mention he was photographed this past May drinking a glass of wine at Brooklyn Bridge Park!
Currently, "the city’s open-container law prohibits anyone from drinking an alcoholic beverage, or possessing and intending to drink from an open container containing an alcoholic beverage, in any public place. The law defines a public place as one 'to which the public or a substantial group of persons has access, including, but not limited to,' a sidewalk, street or park." If one is caught drinking in public without a permit (at a blockparty, etc) then that person faces a fine of $25 or five days behind bars.
Original stoop photo via colorstalker's flickr.
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more importantly, they need to be cracking down on people who drink on other people's stoops.
When beer is outlawed only outlaws will have beer.
I'm on the fence about this.
While I understand how some folks might complain about private property, there are times when people off the street sit on private property and drink, loiter, etc.
I think last year or 2 years ago there was a man in harlem drinking an open container on a stoop, and when the police ran a check on this person he was wanted for homicide in St. Louis.
So if a stoop is public property, why doesn't the sanitation department clear away the snow?
don't be on the stoop about this.
its utter BS that there are laws regulating where you can drink...in public...on your stoop..wherever...it's BS.BS.BS.
While I understand how some folks might complain about private property, there are times when people off the street sit on private property and drink, loiter, etc.
One of those two things is trespassing and the other is drinking on your stoop. There are and should be drastically different penalties for those two things.
And... since when do people not pour their drinks in to solo cups when they go outside? Who wants broken glass on their stoop?
If the city is not going to clear the garbage off of your stoop, not to mention the snow-- then it is clearly not public property. This is a ridiculous enforcement of the law and only further makes the NYPD look like it's harassing citizens rather than protecting them.
if a stoop is a public space then anyone, not just the owner and renter can sit on it. good to know next time i get the "boot" from someones stoop.
I got a ticket a month ago and paid the fine via mail, but the check has not been cashed, any idea how long it can take? Who to call? I don't want to get a warrant issued over a beer in a pint glass at a garage sale.
What about when people poop on your stoop?
Worst. Logic. Ever.
Because one person had a warrant, that means we should trample on private property rights. Awesome.
Let's start ticketing for wearing baggy jeans, too, because maybe one of them will have a warrant out for their arrest.
What happens on the stoop stays on the stoop.
This is one of those cases where discretion on the part of the officer would have gone a long way. Before issuing the ticket, he could have asked himself, "What is the point of this law? Why does this particular person need a ticket?"
If it is to prevent public drunkenness, well, the guy probably wasn't drunk or likely to become drunk, and he's certainly not bothering anybody. If it's to prevent alcohol in the hands of minors, obvs the guy's not doing that either.
Ultimately, NYPD is there to serve the population in the way the civilians would want. This officer failed.
"What is the point of this law? Why does this particular person need a ticket?"
End of the month. Goals to meet.
You are asking police to apply different rules for tenants of the building, who would be considered just relaxing with a drink, and non-tenants, who would be considered loitering. Unless maybe the non-tenants had the permission of the tenants. Not a good idea, and difficult to enforce.
That said, I'm not sure that open containers need to be prohibited at all.
I really think that the police have better things to do and need to go do them. Your front stoop (which not everyone has) is private property and if you live there and are drinking a beer or wine or whatever and you are just minding your own business and watching the world go by then what is the harm. It's one thing if you have a large rowdy group of people getting trashed on the front steps and making a scene but if you are just hanging out and not bothering anyone then let it be.
Maybe Mayor Bloomberg needs to say that a quiet beer in front of your house is A-okay too. Come on Mike..... pop one open on the steps of city hall and hang for a bit.
@IvoryJive:
Shouldn't they be looking for loitering non-tenants anyway, regardless of beer status? Isn't trespassing, well, trespassing? And yes, the police should apply different rules for the owners/tenants of a building than for trespassers! If the stoop is private property, then the police have no business telling you which legal activities you can and cannot do on your own property. Drinking on private property is legal.
So either the stoop is NOT private property, in which case the city is responsible for it, and drinking is not allowed. OR the stoop IS private property, in which case the police need to get lost. God knows in Brooklyn you'd hope they'd have something better to do than ticket some guy for his crappy beer.
AND, laws are not applied mindlessly, nor do we expect them to be.
Perhaps a good example is speeding - literally everybody speeds. But if the police sat around and ticketed everybody going 48 on the West Side Highway, folks would say "what the hell? Since when is this how they apply the law?"
Some laws, like jaywalking, just aren't enforced at all. If a random officer started writing dozens of jaywalking tickets, his supervisor would say "What is your problem?" (Of course, then Ray Kelly would get up at a press conference with a straight face and say "Let me remind you all that jaywalking is, in fact, against the law, and it's dangerous!")
This is a case where the 'Don't be a jerk' rule should apply. If you're enjoying a beer in your stoop, reading a book, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're on the stoop, hammered, breaking bottles and disturbing the peace you should get a ticket. Most NY'ers will remember the pre Giuliani 'paper bag' rule. The cops only messed with you if were acting like a jerk. Peaceable stoop drinking is not a crime.
If you live at that address, there is no question that that the stoop is "private property". Next time get up, carry the beer inside, unlock your door, close the door behind you, then flip them the bird. The police have NO right to trespass onto your property without due cause or evidence of a crime, of which there is NONE. Unless the Constitution has been altered recently, the rights regarding private property are pretty damn clear. The fact that the everyday NYPD officer apparently is ignorant of this is very telling.....
If a stoop is public property, does that mean the city should be taking care of its upkeep? Does that also mean that large groups of people are free to just hang out on other people's stoops?
It started with some sensible restrictions on smoking, now the prohibitionist mentality has taken root in City Hall and is spreading. Once bureaucrats and politicians get taste for telling people what to do and micromanaging their lives, they can't stop themselves.
Stoops today, homes tomorrow, bet on it.
Giuliani started this BS. There was a point in his administration where he wanted to ticket people who did not cross the street at the corner. These assholes are MAD with power.
The saga continues.
three nights ago sitting on our stoop in brooklyn which has a 3-4 ft. overhang from the second floor deck four (4) of us all between the ages of 23-27 were ticketed $45 dollars each for "an open container in public", the police officers cited "being able to see us from public property, ie the cruiser. All four of use plan to contest our court appearance and bring photos of the very unpublic place we were imbibing.