Gothamist: Should Summer Streets Be Permanent?

Snoopy

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:29:14 -0500

And of course in the true spirit of Spirit he is consistently pompous, unrealistic and wrong.

Spiritof76

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:45:49 -0500

Typical Snoopy. The "comments shown above" against Summer Streets reflect the repeated bitching of three whiners.

The Edge

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:07:59 -0500

#38- Shaky assumptions? Do you REALLY think I'm bitching about this just for the sake of?

Snoopy

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:56:56 -0500

Touchy Touchy I see. But the fact is what are the supporting facts that businesses did better by closing the streets? Given the hours that the streets were closed when basically no one is around anyway on the weekends does not make a good argument for extending the days or the hours for doing same.

IvoryJive

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:26:17 -0500

The Edge, I did lose job as a bartender 5 years ago because the City instituted a smoking ban, but I have to admit that, while the change was difficult for me personally, the City is better and healthier with that rule in place. But that's besides the point. I'm not sure anybody owns a business that was negatively impacted by Summer Streets. Show me one shred of numerical evidence that any business on that route did lower than normal sales for a Saturday morning in August. And if you point at that barber in midtown who was quoted in the times saying most of his customers drive in for haircuts on Saturday mornings, I will laugh. With no data to support your argument, you curse me and slander me based on conjecture and your own shaky assumptions - truly the mark of an ignoramus. I'm not against businesses and their concerns, I'm against crotchety gadflys like you that oppose good ideas not based on substance or on merit, but by crying the plight of the poor individual and painting a dramatic picture of devastation - a base tactic and, thankfully in this case, one that will go ignored. As for thefacts, you predictably have parroted even more rhetoric. bravo.

Snoopy

Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:21:11 -0500

It appears that Spirit's "Unofficial Poll" doesn't reflect in the comments shown above.

thefacts

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:49:50 -0500

#34 If you're hungry, you're out of luck. I don't feed trolls.

The Edge

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:18:06 -0500

#34- Hey asshole, do you own a business that was negatively impacted by Summer Streets? Do you even pretend to care? No, you'd rather be dancing around in the streets singing kumbaya twirling streamers around your head with the sunlight shining through, right? Because that's all that matters to you. Douche.

IvoryJive

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:50:57 -0500

thefacts you do have a flair for the dramatic. residents and business had two months notice there would be a temporary 5-hour restriction to motor vehicle access on 3 Saturday mornings. you make it sound like Summer Streets crept in the open window and stole their babies during the night. YOU are the expert on propaganda: oh the residents! oh the businesses! congestion! honking! dangerous bikers! tax paying citizens! isn't there any more rhetoric you can parrot? any more organizations or sympathetic characters you can pretend to represent? what about the working mother trying to sleep on Saturday morning? what about the disabled homeless orphan trying to hobble into a taxi? what about the artists living in lofts in Soho to whom all of New York City owes so much? If we lived in your twisted vision of New York there would be no parades, no street fairs, no public enjoyment of any kind. every property owner, no - even property renters, would have full individual authority over what activities are permitted in front of their parcel no matter how many people enjoyed it. all of our streets would be quiet and empty, with no bars and no tourists, and ample vehicle access, just like General Motors drew up for us at the 1964 World's Fair. cities, I'm afraid, by their very nature are filled with noise and conflict and events and impromptu experiences and inconveniences and fun. you obviously have grown cranky and you have lost your love for what makes New York vital and exciting. so why then do you continue to live here? why do you plant yourself in a loud, hectic, ever-shifting environment and then fight and rage against its nature? why do you insist on cultivating antagonism and why do you seek to snuff out boisterous merriment wherever it arises? in short, what is your f*cking problem?

thefacts

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:13:48 -0500

#32 The CBs didn't notify businesses because the DOT purposely avoided notifying the CBs, because DOT knew from past experiences these silly 'street' events draw out large crowds of residents and businesses in opposition, thwarting DOT's schemes. That is what happened when DOT tried to close Prince Street all summer. People came en masse to the CB meetings and DOT had to withdraw their plan. Wiser, DOT substituted this "summer streets" and didn't tell the community boards till the last minute, when it was already a done deal. Sadik-Khan = Robert Moses on a Bike

The Edge

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:04:33 -0500

#30- The CB's also didn't even bother to run this by quite a few businesses ("You should have came to the meetings." -- which they hardly, if ever, advertise to businesses or residents. That shit they did to Broadway they want to do on Grand street, to make it a east/west throughway for cyclists. What the fuck? I hardly ever see cyclists on Grand street, so I have NO idea how they think this'll be a good idea as I know for a fact this would be extremely detrimental for many, many businesses along the way. It's not that I'm anti-cyclist, but these guys seem to love to bitch and whine so they can have "fun".

moneda

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:51:53 -0500

Why can't people just go to the park? Streets were built for cars (and bicycles), not pedestrians. Sidewalks are for pedestrians. I ride my bike to work everyday, the novelty of riding down park ave. must be lost on me. I can't imagine preferring to ride my bike through Manhattan streets when I could go to the park. Streets were built so that military vehicles could get across the country quickly. They are used mainly by the citizenry because it is convenient.

thefacts

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:59:36 -0500

#28 I agree with you that the businesses were inconvenienced, but the Gothamist poll failed to include the inconvenience to the thousands and thousands of Residents and families on Park and Lafayette and on nearby side streets. Congestion, honking, failure to get deliveries,inability to pull up one's car to load/unload passengers/materials, dodging speeding bikers just to cross the street, etc. Residents and businesses pay top dollar in rent and taxes to reside/work here, and these cyclists don't pay a dime for their little street fair, but want MORE of this nonsense in the future. It's easy to say, "Yeah! This is a great idea!" when it doesn't affect your Neighborhood.

heycarrieann

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:06:25 -0500

i really enjoyed the chance to meander down park avenue, the weather was beautiful, and everybody seemed to be having a great time. I really like Spiritof76 idea of doing again in october. I actually wandered into a couple of different stores that i didn't know existed and found a new restaurant along the way.

The Edge

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:51:45 -0500

#20- You realize that this thing stretches all the way downtown, right? You realize that not all the businesses located on the stretch of this thing benefit from this at all? It seems to me that you think that the small-to-medium sized businesses that this affects should just tough it out. With the economy the way it is, I'm sorry, but that's just fucking ignorant. Tell the business owners, the employees, and their customers how great it is to have a large stretch of Manhattan closed off for a good portion of the working day just so people can bike. If you really think that the City's economy can sustain itself purely on walk-in traffic you're just deluding yourself. It's easy to say, "Yeah! This is a great idea!" when it doesn't affect your livelihood.

whitecastlerock

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:15:56 -0500

If you really want to ride your bike around the city without too much traffic wake up at 5AM and the city is yours-enjoy it. Let the other taxpayers live their lives without this bullshit shoved down our respective throats...

thefacts

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:51:29 -0500

Well the opinions on gothamist are split. So, why the DOT commissioner surely lied to the NY Times when she told them "I’ve heard nothing but rave reviews,” A good propagandist does not make a good traffic commissioner.

Homesick

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:27:22 -0500

Ad rocks I actually agree about the park. All the things I listed would be better suited for the park. I like the sound of the idea I guess but I think knowing the real goal would make a difference. If it is just to get people out doing things, I think organizing events in the parks would better serve that. If the real goal is to try and get more people comfortable riding bikes on manahattan streets and eventually increase ridership as a means of transportation or something I would withdraw my "room for events" idea and use all the space for different speed bike lanes. I guess my back and forth view of this event is because I am not really sure what the specific goals are.

Homesick

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:17:21 -0500

First, I think the other closed streets might have been to prevent one ways from going down into a dead end at the closing or something but I don't know that, just guessing. I didn't mean for my sarcastic comment to make it seem like I don't like the idea or am against it. I like the idea but not every week and not always the same street. I just felt like the point was a little lost (from a pedestrian standpoint) on Park. The sidewalks are 15 feet wide as it is. Having the street open really didn't do anything for people who were just walking. I think there needs to be a real effort to restrict adult bikers to a dedicated lane (with cones or something but big enough to still encourage bike use!!) and try to leave enough room where people can use the rest of the street for activities. Small kids with bikes or trikes, frisbee tossing, chalk art, jump roping, break dancing, whiffle ball, hoop rolling, etc. From a pure pedestrian view there is really no point to having the street closed. I have never felt claustrophobic enough walking on sidewalks that I felt like I needed the whole street.

adrocks

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:07:46 -0500

monsur

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:50:29 -0500

In order for Summer Streets to be successful, they need to resolve the pedestrian, casual biker, fast biker issue. As a pedestrian, there is no advantage to walking down the middle of a street vs walking down the sidewalk.

mgal

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:42:54 -0500

I think that Summer Streets was a great success. I would love to see it continue, be it merely an extension into the fall and spring seasons. If rotating the "featured" streets is necessary to appease the luggage retailers, so be it (I suppose).

JMH

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:31:44 -0500

"I like how nobody gives a shit about the businesses that depend/require vehicular traffic." Businesses that depend on vehicular traffic shouldn't be located in the middle of Manhattan. "If Summer Streets become permanent it would be called "congestion pricing." It's a bad idea. The streets are there to benefit commerce." A) Congestion pricing is a good idea. B) The streets aren't there to benefit commerce, the streets are there to benefit PEOPLE. C) Even if the streets WERE there to benefit commerce, lots kinds of businesses don't depend on auto traffic and saw increased business. And once people realize that there's bad traffic on these days, maybe they'll drive less. That's a good thing.

The Edge

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:30:58 -0500

Most of you don't seem to realize this, but they were also closing off streets that weren't directly part of the event (they just happened to be in "the radius" and when the traffic cop was asked, didn't really know why). And this affected quite a number of businesses -- not in a good way. Deliveries could not be made/received (would you want to walk 3 blocks with a skid of material?).

ianmac47

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:58:44 -0500

I suspect that the limited time offering of a few weekends brought many people into Manhattan specifically to ride their bikes or even just to walk the streets. There was definitely an abnormally high number of bicycles on PATH trains on these three past weekends. I bet many suburban enthusiasts came in by car or train as well. These people almost certainly spent money in the city that would have otherwise gone suburban retailers, especially food vendors. The event probably also encouraged New Yorkers to get outside and exercise a bit more. Many people probably gave bicycling a try, or walked a few more blocks than they ordinarily do. If the city lost a few collective tons of body fat over the last three weeks, that's also a huge economic gain too. I think ideally this sort of event would happen more often, perhaps twice a year. A varied route would ease the burden for retailers fearing financial losses, and encourage users to come out for the change of scenery.

Homesick

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:36:19 -0500

My girlfriend and I were walking down to Grand Central to get some spices this weekend. We were walking on the sidewalk for awhile like a couple of suckers. Once we realized what was going on we stepped out to walk on the street and it was GLORIOUS!!! It was like the heavens opened up and a warm light was shining down on us. I can't really do the feeling justice with my petty words but it was almost like...oh I know! Like walking down the sidewalk, except 5 feet to the left.

The Edge

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:43:32 -0500

#12- Not every business relies on walk-in buyers. This is just a feel-good attempt at appeasing a vocal minority that negatively affects quite a bit of businesses that don't necessarily rely on walk-in traffic. And, as others have pointed out before, does not improve vehicular traffic whatsoever but instead makes it worse. But hey, fuck cars, right? 'Cuz cars don't bring in commerce, bicyclists do.

hungryghoast

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:48:57 -0500

i'd vote for keeping it, seeing the pissed off drivers was a bonus (and no, i'm not a car-hating cyclist... i jsut found it amusing). but i wish it would go later than 1.

klk

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:47:58 -0500

although gothamist is using the word "permanent," sadik-khan clearly suggests having summer streets every weekend in the summer months. this is a pretty reasonable idea, right?

blablanyc

Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:02:28 -0500

If Summer Streets become permanent it would be called "congestion pricing." It's a bad idea. The streets are there to benefit commerce. This is Bloomberg's way of winning over people to his gated community plans for NYC.

Spiritof76

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:20:03 -0500

Too bad for "thefacts," Snoopy and other haters. They've been badly outvoted in Gothamist's admittedly unscientific poll. At the time I write this, it's about 350 votes for some form of Summer Streets returning versus 14 haters. indicates a bad manager. if she hasn't heard any dissent, it means she doesn't want it. Let me get this straight. You really think anybody walking or biking Summer Streets would think that it's terrible? That's what she meant by "rave reviews." The only people who have anything bad to say about it are a few retailers like the luggage guy who expects summer travelers to pop in to pick up a suitcase at the last moment before a trip. Most other retailers loved the increased foot traffic.

Future Taliban

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:07:59 -0500

And to think I can still remember how people used to laugh at my idea of turning all of Manhattan island into a penal colony on weekends.

The Edge

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:57:48 -0500

I like how nobody gives a shit about the businesses that depend/require vehicular traffic.

cool

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:16:28 -0500

“I’ve heard nothing but rave reviews." indicates a bad manager. if she hasn't heard any dissent, it means she doesn't want it.

Snoopy

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:09:26 -0500

I can't wait for some deranged motorist who drives down the closed off street the wrong way and wipes out two hundred and fifty self entitled bicyclists and then sue the city for not posting appropriate signs warning him not to drive that way.

thefacts

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:30:56 -0500

"DOT Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan tells the Times, “I’ve heard nothing but rave reviews. When I was along the route, most people I talked to wanted it done every weekend in the summer.”" Of course she would say that. It's her baby. You ever hear a mother say her baby was ugly? Of course those participating along the route would say it was great. It's the converted preaching to the believers. But for us living on the side/parallel streets along the way, it was a big pain, as congestion from diverted traffic spilled over to our streets and the honking broke the calm of the usual quiet Saturdays of summer we used to enjoy. If all the cyclists who biked over the Bklyn Bridge like it so much, fine. Let them have it in Brooklyn next year. Or maybe the West Side. We on the East Side want our summers back from the Tour de Manhattan madmen on bikes. Sadik-Khan = a good argument for term limits

Daniel Millstone

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:58:18 -0500

I think I've learned a lot from Summer Streets and I think the City may have learned more. Bicyclist that I am, I think we next year we could have more & better summer streets if motorists, cyclists, bladers, boarders and walkers understood and observed rules of civility. It was not easy for pedestrians to cross Park Ave, for example.

abcohen

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:53:59 -0500

Yes.. but they need to rotate the streets!! I enjoyed Park Ave being quite but it wasnt easy around union square as cabs avoid Irving place...

escherichia

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:34:18 -0500

Can't they just increase the number of weeks it's held and rotate streets? I'd like to see a car-free 5th Avenue for once in my life.

nomnomnom

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:16:01 -0500

Year round doesn't make sense. It's not like people are going to ride their bikes when it's 30 degrees out. But given the winters we've had recently, it will probably be 50 in January.

thenebula

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:52:48 -0500

I wouldn't want them to have this all the time but maybe increase it to 5 times a year. Keep the three in August and maybe have two in the beginning of June as well.

Spiritof76

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:47:20 -0500

Uh, if it was year-round, it wouldn't be Summer Streets, would it? Besides, people would get bored of it if it was year-round. Although I wouldn't mind if it included some nicer, cooler weather, like May or October. But like I wrote before, I'd love for it to be permanent, if only to piss off bike-owning bike-hater (and general misanthrope) "thefacts."