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Above photograph of Shyam Sunder discussing the NIST report on 7 WTC collapse by Don Berkemeyer; below photograph of the destroyed 7 WTC from the AP
One of the lingering conspiracy theories surrounding the attacks on September 11, 2001 is that 7 World Trade Center, which was not hit by a plane, was deliberately destroyed (here's one example of a conspiracy website), because no other steel building has collapsed simply due to fire before. But now a report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology says that the fire is the culprit.
Lead investigator Shyam Sunder said, “Our study found that the fires in WTC 7, which were uncontrolled but otherwise similar to fires experienced in other tall buildings, caused an extraordinary event. Heating of floor beams and girders caused a critical support column to fail, initiating a fire-induced progressive collapse that brought the building down.” And referring to the fuel stored at 7 WTC, he added, "Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7." The fires were started when debris from the World Trade Center towers fell onto the lower building.
The key factor contributing to the collapse is "thermal expansionof long-span floor systems at temperatures 'hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire resistance ratings.'" In other words, building owners, check your buildings. The report suggests that if a water main had not been broken due to the collapse at the Twin Towers, the sprinkler system at 7 WTC would have prevented the building's collapse.
You can read NIST's full report here (PDF). Former mayor Rudy Giuliani had placed his emergency command center at 7 WTC, in spite of NYPD recommendations against doing so.
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It's very possible. But people love conspiracy's more. Even if the theorists pretend to know what they're talking about.
You can listen to Architects and Engineers for 911 truth Richard Gage on why the fire did not cause the collapse here
http://www.ae911truth.org/
and here
http://www.takingaim.info/
Also, the elections are being stolen by private corporations:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=spoonamore&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=spoonamor
“Our study found that the fires in WTC 7, which were uncontrolled but otherwise similar to fires experienced in other tall buildings, caused an extraordinary event."
Riiiiiiiiiiight.
And referring to the fuel stored at 7 WTC, he added, "Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7."
i find that odd, i thought the oil caused the collapse & that the truthers were idiots but now i'm supposed to believe that it was just a regular fire? wouldn't that mean every building designed like wtc7 can collapse if someone throws a cigarette in a trash can?
(i'm not an architect or engineer)
"wouldn't that mean every building designed like wtc7 can collapse if someone throws a cigarette in a trash can?"
If two adjacent huge buildings had just collapsed and broken a water main, and firefighters were so occupied by a disaster covering several blocks (and hampered by debris covering the area, lack of command capability, and heavy casualties among their number) that little was done to fight the fire the question... then, yes, probably so.
This was an "extraordinary event," extraordinary results shouldn't be so unexpected.
A regular fire cannot cause steel structures to collapse people! It's basic physics, I can't believe people are still accepting this bullshit from the government!
Don't forget to do some reading of the debunking of the conspiracies too.
This is the best one :
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
It is unfortunate we waste any time with these guys.
Sinchy and Shinobi Shaw please remove all reproductive organs, your genes are no longer needed in the pool. Thank you, goodnight.
>A regular fire cannot cause steel structures to collapse people!
Yes it can you idiot. Ever been to a steel foundry??
No, the fire needs to reach a very high temperature before it melts steel, there is evidence of LIQUID steel seen on the sight during and after the buildings were attacked and collapsed (around the rims of the steel structures themselves).
Many physicists (especially those not under corporate interests) have been astounded at the logic the government propaganda has put forth. And they are not even 'conspiracy theorist.'
The point is no skyscraper (and look up the history of steel structures) has ever COLLAPSED due to a regular fire. DAMAGED? YES, Collapsed, NO (again, look at the history).
WTC 1, 2 and 7 are the only skyscrapers/high rises to have ever collapse due to fire.
The 'pancake theory' is an even more blatant lie, any physicist will tell you that (unless he is bought and paid for of course).
And I love how some of you are quick to call people who question and are exercising their freedoms (supposedly) 'conspiracy theorists.'
And when forming an argument gentleman, back it up (that's right at you #9).
But look, you don't have to believe, I can't believe this is so distressful for some of you that you are willing to call names (when did we become children?).
9/11 conspiracy theorists are the evangelical Christians of the left.
#12 I thought those were the GREENIES serving Lord Gore?
I'm not sure what a "regular" fire, is, but in most building fires:
a) the sprinklers work
b) the building hasn't sustained a bunch of structural damage
When the North Tower fell, it took out chunk of WTC 7. The troofers always love to show pics of the 'intact' north facade. This pic shows what it looked like from the other side.
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/storage/911/911-images/wtc7-side-damage1.jpg
One thing the troofers never answer: this conspiracy they've uncovered is so 'obvious' - and yet, not a single firefighter, policeman, or widow of the above, has sued on that basis, for the murder of their loved ones. Likewise, you'd think the insurance companies would have raised this small point, when they were being sued for billions of dollars by Larry Silverstein.
Shinobi is right. The government is lying to us. There were no planes. Shit, the towers didn't even fall. They are still there. Go and look. If you can get up close, you can still touch them. But they are hidden behind the secret cloak of invisibility. It's all a lie. And soylent green is not people!
Shinobi, steel begins to lose its strength long before it melts. Ever see blacksmiths at work? They heat the metal before they try to shape it. Why? Because the metal is softer and easier to work with. But it hasn't "melted".
50 cents should blame the burning of his baby momma's house on "thermal expansion."
So the buildings of the WTC were built wrong. That's the conspiracy, the scandal.
this is pure, bureaucratic bullshit. steel definitely weakens from intense fires - but 1. that wasn't an intense fire 2. the building collapsed straight down, perfectly. I mean, come on. basic physics, people.
the best contrast to this building is the Deutsche Bank building: it's gutted, severely moldy, there was an intense fire - and yet, it still stands. they still have to bring it down, piece by piece. it pre-dates WTC 7 by about 10 years - and yes, it's also a steel & concrete building.
I agree that most of the 9/11 truthers are a litttlllleee too kookoo, but also accepting this sort of bullshit readily makes you a bit kookoo as well. it's a delicate balance to keep your head while others lose theirs in either extreme.
the building collapsed straight down, perfectly. I mean, come on. basic physics, people.
Exactly how should it have fallen?
First of all, why is any other theory that goes against the "official" theory referred to as a "Conspiracy Theory?" I'm my experience other theories are just simply that; OTHER theories. This does not imply some archetypical nut-case sitting in a basement with news paper clippings.
Second, The argument that the alternative theorists (as I will call myself) are not taking note of the damage to the south face of WTC 7 is not a valid argument. The AmEX building, Deutche Bank both suffered similar structural damage, and in fact were closer to the twin towers. There is a post office beside WTC7 that was built in the 1930s, are you to tell me that a building which is almost 60 years older than the origial WTC7 remained intact while sitting admid the same disaster?
Third, you have to consider Physics and the Law of Entropy. This Law of Physics requires that objects must move into a path of least resistance. So if WTC7 did fall from an office fire it should have tipped south (where so many point out the damage was) and scattered itself into the WTC plaza. But what we saw was the building collapse into itself, neatly into a pile.
And Finally, office fires do not burn hot enough to collapse a steel structure. You would need temperatures of well over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit to make structural steel fail, and office fire burns about as hot as a bonfire.
So yes we should be asking questions of this "official explanation" because anyone who understands physics or structural design can see the fault in this explanation. The Achilles heel of the NIST explanation is not that the building collapsed from fire, but that THEY DON'T EXPLAIN HOW IT IMPLODED INTO ITSELF AND FELL AT THE SPEED OF GRAVITY.
Think.
ConstructedPerfection.com - Blue Print of a Demolition
Seriously, our votes are being stolen, take 20 minutes and listen to Spoonamore in my above comment.
As far as the theories of demolition, I keep an open mind, because it is very unlikely that three separate building would all fall completely straight down on their own footprints after only a short time on fire, compared to other steel buildings that had raging fire for over 18 hours and still stood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Building
Aside from the towers all the other aspects of 911 indicate either complete key-stone cops negligence or complicity.
No one was fired for dropping the ball in the national security apparatus, and in fact some were promoted and many others are raking in HUGE sums of money.
We just learned from Seymore Hersh that Cheney contemplated disguising our guys as Iranians and attacking our own to start war with Iran.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/31/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/
@ Captain Morgan- oh why bother.
You lost me at: The AmEX building, Deutche Bank both suffered similar structural damage
WFC was barely clipped by falling debris and as far as I know never caught fire.
EastRiver:
for a building to fall straight down, that means that equal amounts of a certain amount of stress are being placed at each supporting beam at the exact same time. the possibility of this is near zero - which is why, in the 100 years of skyscrapers, no other steel & concrete buildings have fallen. even WTC didn't fall when they had an intense fire during the bombing incident.
here's a better example of an intense fire not affecting the integrity of the steel & concrete to the point of collapse: the Madrid Tohmatsu fire.
You don't need a force at every single supporting beam to bring down a building and they don't have to be simultaneous. Watch any controlled demolition and you will see that the charges are staggered. The current report states that the interior columns failed first which led to other failures. If the failure begins in the center it is logical to think the building will fall straight down. And in the case of WTC 2 (South Tower), it buckled on the south east corner. Video shows the top of the tower falling in that direction but it doesn't land 1300 feet away.
EastRiver: "... Watch any controlled demolition and you will see that the charges are staggered. ..."
the best example you could relate this situation to is a controlled demolition? hm.
the best example you could relate this situation to is a controlled demolition? hm.
No, I said the failures don't have to be simultaneous.
BTW there was I believe a TV Documentary on the WTC (It's history, construction et cetera) way before 9/11 where the architect himself said that the buildings were made to be like nets (meaning that any high impact on the buildings could never do the level of structural damage i.e. complete collapse to the buildings, he even mentioned the example of a 747.)
The buildings were indeed built well enough to survive fires and high impacts (they had it in mind).
Yet you mean to tell me that those buildings fell due to a regular fire? When liquid metal was seen everywhere in the vicinity?
You are all being manipulated by Big Brother (The Man). The towers didn't fall. That was just movie magic, not unlike those Olympic foot prints in sky of Beijing.
This will be, I think, my last post in this thread, because it's a bit like "arguing" with creationists, but Shinobi, the interview was on Nova, and was pretty much the opposite of what you said.
1) Leslie Robertson was the chief engineer, not the architect, Minoru Yamasaki, who had died in 1986.
2) Robertson did contemplate a plane crashing into a WTC tower, but he envisioned something akin to the crash of the bomber into the Empire State Building - i.e., a plane, with nearly empty fuel tanks, flying low-and slow, lost in fog, searching for an airport.
It was never contemplated that a plane full of jet fuel, flying at top speed. The plane Robertson contemplated was a 707, the largest passenger plane at the time, not the much larger 767.
Lastly, he explicitly stated that they only designed for the effect of the crash itself, and never modeled what an uncontrolled fire would do to the structure.
Since all of the above is pretty much common-knowldege, and with Google can be found in under a minute.... 'nuff said.
^ Thank you. The plane that the designers had in mind when they designed the towers in 1965 was the 707. What's creepy was that this all came out during coverage of the 1993 WTC bombing. The way the networks chatted up this scenario endlessly at that time makes me wonder if they weren't giving these guys the recipe for their next attack.
If you watch the tape of the WTC7 collapse closely, you will see that the roof of a *rooftop structure* on the building actually buckles and begins to collapse immediately before the rest of the building. This first sign of collapse was far, far from any fires or impact damage.
If WTC7 collapsed due to the so-called "extensive damage" and fires on the mid-to-lower floors of the building, why would the very top of the building be the first part to collapse?
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc7_why_did_rooftop_penthouse_collapse_ahead_of_rest_of_tower.htm
I have yet to hear anyone offer an explanation for this.
Can any of you people calling those who dare question the official explanations "nutcases" explain it to us?
Here's a stab at it: Look closely at controlled demolitions of other buildings like those old hotels on the Las Vegas Strip. Often, after the charges go off, the first sign of the building's collapse is bowing and buckling along the roofline. When a structure's internal framework is compromised, the portion of the building with the least amount of compressing forces is the first to show movement, and often, even though the trauma occurred at the lower levels, it's the lower levels that are relatively more stable because of that compression which acts to dampen any shifting.
fyi, there's very well known video from a PBS investigation of 9/11, wherein silverstein admits that they "pulled" the building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100
and here's more in depth discussion on it.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/silverstein_pullit.html
fyi, there's very well known video from a PBS investigation of 9/11, wherein silverstein admits that they "pulled" the building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100
and here's more in depth discussion on it.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/silverstein_pullit.html
"It's very possible. But people love conspiracy's more."
#2, the only thing people love more than that, apparently, are :"apostrophe's".
Im not one to buy into whats fed to us by major networks - i like to be observant and objective. I read news from around the world regularly and I stay away from the CNN's, Foxnews etc...
That being said, I dont believe in a full blown conspiracy theory because it would just involve too many people and something would have leaked in this age of information. I mean, I did see 2 planes hit the towers - its not too hard to believe that buildings would collapse after that...I agree that the Pentagon deal is a little fishy but...
Indeed - it is ironic that both Saddam Hussein and Osama BinLaden are monsters created by the U.S. but I dont believe that anyone at the U.S. government level knowingly participated in the bombing of U.S. embassy's or the outright destruction of the financial capital of the u.s.
All that being said, conspiracy theories are necessary and we should always challenge and question what is being said to us; its part of the checks and balances of our society...