Gothamist: Driver, Who Killed Two, Was Unlicensed and High

Tulane75

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:33:55 -0500

dadoc and I are on the same page, with one dramatic exception. I have nothing against Pink Floyd, but the scenario he presents is clearly a Jethro Tull, Thick as a Brick moment (43+ to be more precise). If the defendant had been taking his meds, the legal defense would have been something like the defense in State of South Carolina v. Pittman, when the boy killed his grandparents by shooting them with a shotgun. Zoloft was the drug in question in that case. http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/14/juvenile.killer/index.html

Spiritof76

Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:42:38 -0500

Spirit, the illegalization of guns, drugs, "deviant sexual intercourse" have done, um, what to reduce such behaviors? Murder, theft, extortion, all are illegal & still occur. So lets make murder, theft, extortion, etc. legal since we can't stop them. Is that what you're saying? "thedroog" is an imbecile. I don't drink, you stupid junkie.

DarkGemini

Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:31:31 -0500

@[9] Notwithstanding the whole legalization of Marijuana discussion (save it for another story)... Alcohol is legal, and yet there are DUI laws on the books. Any reason why said laws couldn't be amended to include THC intoxication? In regards to the story in general... Upgrade the charges to criminally negligent homicide, 7 to 15 years, lifetime revocation of NYS driving priviledges. This, IMO, should be the punishment of anyone who is convicted of killing someone while operating a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. (yes, I'm sure there's a typo or two in this)

thedroog

Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:55:46 -0500

sounds like Spiritof76 needs to get off the sauce and smoke a joint. maybe then he won't be such a raging prick.

dadoc

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:59:34 -0500

JNguy, nobody is saying that alcohol is harmless. Yes, alcohol, tobacco, motor vehicles, firearms, slippery tubs & PMSy women have killed more people than all the world's wars combined. Weed is great. We know that. So are shrooms, Belgian Ale, good Tequila and many other things. It's just amount/time/situation/person that defines the "good/bad". Have a few drinks, fire up, dig out the old Pink Floyd platters, have some safe sex, excellent! Do the same behind the controls of a car/747/crane/your Mom's gall bladder? BAD. Spirit, the illegalization of guns, drugs, "deviant sexual intercourse" have done, um, what to reduce such behaviors? Murder, theft, extortion, all are illegal & still occur. The exposure of female nipples is a crime in NYC. Should we take away all of the nipples, or only allow them if you get a permit from the government that says it's Ok? My advice is: in the approprite setting, pop open a big Kwak, put on some Floyd, light up, enjoy a nipple, relax, sleep well. Be happy & productive in your tomorrow & do well by yourself & the world. M'kay?

Spiritof76

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:40:03 -0500

[29] I "implied" what? That it was the only reason? You really need to get your psychic mind-reading act fine-tuned because you definitely suck at it. Who is "they"? Did I or anybody else here ever write alcohol is harmless? The government did ban that once, in case you young pups never heard of Prohibition. But you potheads seem to be of the belief that if one bad thing is legal then all bad things should be legalized.

NannyState

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:42:28 -0500

This awful kid had it all mixed up: psychosis, pot smoking, speeding in a heavy Mercedes. What more does anyone need? Would that poor couple be any less dead if the kid hadn't smoked pot? My point is that psychosis is deadly with no other contributing factors. And those diagnosed with that mental illness should not drive period. Sorry. They do better under the meds, but they don't always take them. Fifty years ago, this kid would be At Pilgrim State Hospital or Creedmoor, confined for an indefinite time. It's really time to rethink this bullshit called "Community Mental Health".

jnguy

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:30:27 -0500

@Spiritof76 You implied with your "Yeah, it's so harmless" bit You want more data? Two recent case-controlled studies have assessed this risk in detail. A 2007 case-control study published in the Canadian Journal of Public Health reviewed 10-years of US auto-fatality data. Investigators found that US drivers with blood alcohol levels of 0.05% – a level well below the legal limit for intoxication – were three times as likely to have engaged in unsafe driving activities prior to a fatal crash as compared to individuals who tested positive for marijuana.30 A 2005 review of auto accident fatality data from France showed similar results, finding that drivers who tested positive for any amount of alcohol had a four times greater risk of having a fatal accident than did drivers who tested positive for marijuana in their blood.31 In the latter study, even drivers with low levels of alcohol present in their blood (below 0.05%) experienced a greater elevated risk as compared to drivers who tested positive for high concentrations of cannabis (above 5ng/ml). Both studies noted that overall few traffic accidents appeared to be attributed to driver’s operating a vehicle while impaired by cannabis. And they say alcohol is harmless.

dadoc

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:41:09 -0500

Spirit, don't get into the relativism conundrum. Tokers are like Crit Mass. We're great, you just don't understand. No, sorry Tokers are nicer. Operating a vehicle (or, for surgeons, operating) after intaking alcohol, THC, Adderall, Provigil, Zyprexa, Depakote, benadryl, Robitussin, Vicodin, Allegra, E, K, lack of sleep et al is BAD, m'kay? The consequences of the intake of any substance is amount/frequency/temporal/activity related m'kay?

dadoc

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:27:07 -0500

And, luckily, the kid was NOT taking his meds. Cuts out the sue the Doc/Sue the drug company jackpot play. With "problems" @ the school, family will prob try to sue NYC. If other agencies were ever involved, same applies. I do give the Mom some slack for not doing the communion picture/aspiring astronaut/MLB thing. Your kid still killed a family, hopefully you did what you could, and thank you for expressing thoughts for the killed & owning up to the horror of the situation.

Spiritof76

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:14:45 -0500

of course it's not a good idea to drive while under the influence of any mind altering substance. but Spiritof76 was insinuating that's the only reason this accident occurred. Who said that? You need to put down the bong. It's not the sole cause, but only a complete idiot or someone who's defensive about marijuana use and advocates its legalization would say it played no role. Re: the neurogenesis argument, you're pointing at one vague paragraph that gives no details whatsoever. What kind of neurogenesis are we talking about? What regions of the brain were affected? Why don't you try pointing to more recent articles in peer-reviewed medical journals, such as "Neuropsychological deficits in long-term frequent cannabis users," published a year later in Neurology? From the article: The authors examined neuropsychological functioning in 20 long-term (LT), 20 shorter term (ST) heavy frequent cannabis users, and 24 controls after abstinence for 24 hours prior to testing. LT users performed significantly worse on verbal memory and psychomotor speed. LT and ST users had a higher proportion of deficits on verbal fluency, verbal memory, attention, and psychomotor speed. Specific cognitive domains appear to deteriorate with increasing years of heavy frequent cannabis use. Now that's something I can believe.

dadoc

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:01:56 -0500

Upgrade the 2nd Manslaughter to 1st or Some level of Vehicular/Criminally Negligent Hom. Upgrade Unauthorized Use to Auto Theft. Give him 15-25 in the slammer doing productive work for the state, all proceeds going to the deceaseds' family (not enough, but no chits for sh-t, make him know he's doing time for what he did, no college courses, gym time, etc. In 15-25 when (if) you turn him loose, Life Probation, with monthly injections of long-term anti-psychotics & random frequent drug testing & a Bracelet. First missed appt./violation, Life, no Par. And immdediate ICE check of the family. If illegal, out now. When the kid does his 15-25, out, no return option. And if the kid was driving a Merc, no court-appointed (US tax-payed) shysters & experts pushing "diminished capacity". If this was your dead family, wouldn't you at least want a reasonable process? And, I believe you can expect the usual "fled the tyranny/horror (insert former Bloc country here) BS. Sorry! No soup for you! Go away!

JMH

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:34:03 -0500

Wow, usually in a situation like this the parents are quoted as saying "but I don't understand, he was such a good boy!" Here we have the mother saying "His behavior has been bad since eighth grade, and since then it's been getting worse and worse." You don't hear that a lot. I say charge the fucker as an adult and lock him up for a looooong time.

drewo

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:00:51 -0500

From the NY Times Play magazine - August 2007 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/sports/playmagazine/0819play-brain.html The human brain undergoes neurogenesis — the creation of new cells — throughout a person’s life, although the amount depends on a variety of factors, not just exercise. MARIJUANA: We just report the data; we don’t endorse it. A 2005 study on rats found that stimulation of the brain’s receptors for marijuana increased neurogenesis.

henricus

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:51:28 -0500

The kids idiocy was to blame here. Don't have an opinion on the pot being involved. However: GOP, are you serious? I have seen kids at Columbia and NYU (some of them brilliant) smoke pot and if anything it turned them into slack-jawed piles of mental mush for half an hour or more. Just because someone is asking the deep questions, like "woh, have you ever really looked at your hands?" does not make him more a genius.

rdsizzle

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:21:58 -0500

This is very sad and frustrating when innocent people die like this... Weed doesent create an agressive driving pattern in people. If anything it makes you clumbsy. In my opinion, this accident was caused by an inexperienced and troubled kid. I agree that the sentence should be harsh, but these events will haunt him and his family for life!

aveB4life

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:54:03 -0500

this is truly a sad story. GOP, dont make comments like that. A smart person becomes 'smarter'. Take it from a guy who loves his weed. Pot does not make you more smart. Ever.

GOP

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:20:36 -0500

Pot just enhances who you normally are. A smart person becomes smarter. A stupid person becomes stupider. This dude was obviously an idiot. RIP to the innocent in this tragedy.

drewo

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:15:50 -0500

Automobile accidents kills over 40,000 people each year in this country. How many people does pot kill? Let's ban the cars first.

thedroog

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:58:40 -0500

@eyekantspel of course it's not a good idea to drive while under the influence of any mind altering substance. but Spiritof76 was insinuating that's the only reason this accident occurred. i highly doubt that's the case. furthermore, he's using this one accident as a reason for labeling pot as bad in general. also not the case. @theedge seems to me that when driving high, one is likely to drive a hell of a lot slower than one normally would. that's been my experience anyway.

eyekantspel

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:49:32 -0500

Without weighing in on the merits of legalization of pot, I think Spiritof76 has a point. It seems like one of the tactics used by those lobbying for legalization is to compare it to alcohol, suggesting that bar fights and drunk driving make alcohol worse than pot. It's not one of the better arguments for legalization. Clearly driving under the influence of any drug is not a good idea.

The Edge

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:27:11 -0500

An honest question here: Have any of you driven while high? Did you speed?

Politburo

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:11:23 -0500

Yeah pot is totally to blame. Not the guy who went around a car and RAN A RED LIGHT.

Rocknrope

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:00:23 -0500

Pineapple Express?

thedroog

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:58:26 -0500

@Sprititof76 what? alcohol is legal and, last time i checked, it's responsible for a multitude of vehicular deaths every year (among other social ills). should it be made illegal then? odds are reckless driving is more at fault here than marijuana. pot is relatively harmless. one can't really say the same about alcohol.

Rfive

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:57:53 -0500

Not sure if the pot can be isolated as the cause for this accident. The kid was an idiot, first and foremost, psychotic and speeding in an unfamiliar vehicle. Don't overuse the fact that he was stoned as more anti-marijuana propaganda

Tgirl

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:39:34 -0500

its always the innocent party that dies, so unfair!

Spiritof76

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:39:11 -0500

And it's still unbelievable that some people keep saying pot should be legalized. Yeah, it's so harmless.

maximoose

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:19:28 -0500

It was not an SUV, but a Mercedes sedan. I live in Forest Hills and have been noticing a growing trend amongst young kids driving recklessly with their parent's luxury vehicles in this community.

JenChungsBra

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:13:24 -0500

That is a bad intersection, lots of people speeding and drivers can't see cars coming around a blind corner. And not to be nitpicky but it's not actually the Grand Central Parkway itself, it's the service road adjacent to the parkway.

nomnomnom

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:12:09 -0500

So sad.

jibbly

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:09:53 -0500

Terrible terrible terrible.

Kreo

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:07:16 -0500

Poor Acura occupants. The guy must be sent to prison for double life, and his parents should be punished, and his doctor who did not follow through on the f-ed up patient, and the school for not sending him to some special treatment program, and his drug dealer for dispersing weed to an obvious idiot.

CR

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:56:47 -0500

Kid refused to take his anti-psychotic. This is gonna be interesting to say the least.

Peter

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:56:40 -0500

The Mercedes was not an SUV.

Bottomless Chips

Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:43 -0500

"It's a tragic accident. I hope they didn't suffer." Judging by that pic, I doubt they did. Crazy. Jail for life, with the possibility of parole. That should be the standard sentence for all vehicular manslaughters. A car is a dangerous device. Operate it inappropriately with neglect for human life, be prepared to suffer the consequences.