June 17, 2008
Still Legal for Frosty Stores to Have Open Doors
The NY Times columnist Clyde Haberman is annoyed about shops that keep their air-conditioned stores' doors wide open and found other New Yorkers who share that gripe. One downtown resident was told by a Soho clothing store that the open door was "company policy," so the outraged resident called the store's main office, where someone "said they had a ‘green team’ forming."
Haberman points out that he wrote about this issue two years ago, when oil was at $70/barrel. It's now at $140/barrel and he counted, on a recent walk during 90-degree weather, a number of stores with open-door policies:
Along 34th Street between Fifth Avenue and Avenue of the Americas, 15 stores flooded the sidewalk with their air-conditioning. On a three-block stretch of Broadway in SoHo, from Houston Street to Broome Street, the number was 29. Among the energy wasters were major retailers like Steve Madden, H & M, Foot Locker, Aerosoles, Lane Bryant, Ann Taylor Loft, Arden B., Aldo, Uniqlo, Esprit and Zara.Last year, City Councilwoman Gale Brewer proposed a bill that would have fined establishments $200 per open door/window in air conditioned spaces. But the bill was never passed, because, Haberman writes, "because it lacks support from the Bloomberg administration, which despite its own ample 'green' talk has shown scant interest in telling businesses what to do." Snap! And one person suggests closing doors in stores yourself.
Some stores don't seem to care that the stress on Con Ed might prompt a blackout, though Con Ed recommends air-conditioning be turned to 78 degrees. And during the cold winter, sometimes store doors are open when the stores are warm and cozy.
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If they're paying for it who cares?
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If a store wants to pay the extra money in order to lure customers that's their business.
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Matty, because it effects us all. If I own a Hummer sure I pay for the 120 dollars to fill it up but we all end up paying due to higher demand and the longer term effects of pollution and waste. The same goes for the power it takes to run these AC's all day. Making electricity is a dirty and expensive process.
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Tax it.
Increase taxes on certain types of stores (based on zoning) with energy use above a certain level per square foot.
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It will also cause other places to have browns outs, since the store AC is running at full speed without the compressor ever turning off.
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sure let them do it until there's another blackout.
I hope we're due for one. 2 years is a long time to wait when you're a blackout junkie.
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This issue is so frigging low on the list issues that need to be addressed in the world.
Some people need to get a life or focus their efforts on something more significant.
Next thing these douches will want to regulate the temperature in your apartment.
It is amazing how a little "green" consciousness can push some clowns over the edge into domineering douchebags.
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My problem with this article is it links the issue of air conditioning to the cost of oil in more than one place. WTF does one have to do with the other? Does the author just not know how a/c works? Does he think a/c runs on gasoline or something?
Household/business A/C generally runs off electricity. I'm pretty sure that most of the electricity generated for this area is from coal or nuclear, right? The exception would be the relatively few buildings that use ConEd steam for heating/cooling as I think their steam generation plant burns natural gas. But again, not really related to the cost or use of oil.
It's certainly a wasteful practice and should be discouraged but I'm not neccesarily in favor of a new law for that purpose. We've got enough laws already and I think the government has enough say in what we do.
The simplest solution would seem to be the obvious one: If you are concerned about this wasteful practice, bring it to the attention of the management. If the management doesn't care, then stop shopping there and be sure the management knows the reason you are no longer spending any money in their establishment. If it's an important enough issue to enough people, then the store management will get the hint. If not, well then you can probably find something more important to be concerned about.
My favorite quote is this one: "And yet the waste goes on as if oil were cheap and inexhaustible." Again, where is the relationship of one to the other?
Now if we were talking about automotive a/c then that would be a whole different story as using a/c in a car has a direct negative impact on fuel economy and therefore oil use because of how it works (i.e. an engine-driven compressor).
The problem I have with this column is it's either lazy journalism for the guy not doing his due diligence or it's a deliberate attempt to mislead people who don't know any better into thinking that waste of electricity is somehow related to the cost of oil.
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If they're paying for it who cares?
My aunt' doesn't pay for utilities (lucky her). She lives with her lights on almost 24 hours a day. Is it right? No. is it right that she drives electricity up and puts stress on the electric company? Just because someone is paying for waste doesn't make it good.
I find it funny, how so many companies are "going green" these days, but at the same time break the green law all the time. It's a just a big a joke as a package that says "organic". there are no regulations for "green" or "organic".
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Matty hates the Earth :-(
I'll tell you what though, if you're not all old and fragile or trying to get home from work, blackouts are hella fun! Eating up all the ice cream before it melts, playing board games by candlelight, lying in the grass and looking up at the stars... yay!
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I'm trying to figure out if they pay a higher rate than residential. According to this commercial rates are lower on average in New York
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
If they are getting their power for less than me then ya, its a problem if they leave the door open.
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wow, oil gets expensive b/c the middle classes throughout Asia are get richer and everyone in the US goes environmentalist...
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Oh whatever. I don't hate the earth. I just feel like they'll stop doing it once it's economically non-viable to do so. Those doors are blowing cold air to hot customers and drawing in sales that justify the open door policy as a result. Once electricity becomes too expensive to do that or it stops drawing in customers then it won't happen.
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A graduated electric usage rate would fix this.
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LORD GORE, who keeps instilling this massive (and profitable) Global Warming HOAX. There is no such thing as MAN-MADE global warming, the earth actually has been cooling in the last 10 years.
The Man-Made Global Warming hoax is just to get you prepped up for CARBON TAX/CREDITS.
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Yeah, you're right Shinobi. And the Earth is flat too, and is the center of the universe. And don't even get me started on that whole "evolution" nonsense...
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Stay on topic please Shinobi, save your Rush Limbaugh pseudo science for another blog.
Matty, there will never be an incentive for the stores to stop doing this because electricty is not billed as an actual cost, it is often estimated and adjusted. It doesn't seem fair that we all have to pay for Club Monaco's sales tactics. And the point about the brownouts is right. When SOHO uses up all the juice on a 95 degree day Con/Ed will shut down power in Middle Village to make up for the consumption. This could be avoided if they simply shut their doors and conserved power, like Con-Ed asks us all to do during heat waves.
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yeah, whatever...
what I hate is when the AC is so f--ciking cold! jeez... nobody I know likes it, yet businesses keep doing it... who cares about what the customer wants... f--k them!
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Yes you do too hate the Earth, Matty. Why?
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Pseudo Science? Rush Limbaugh? I am neither Left or Right.
I am sure you already know #16 and 17, that Gore has invested quite a bit in Futures on Global Warming.
It's a profitable hoax to tax the masses (Carbon Tax).
Anyway to stay on topic, the store owners should be more conscientious in saving energy (to prevent blackouts) but this can be done without taxation or penalties.
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"keep your a/c at 78 degrees"
is this for real? i'm sorry, but you might as well not bother with A/C if that's where you are supposed to set it. on really bad days when power use seems high i'll set the office AC at 74, otherwise, 72 works just fine thanks.
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also, SJ-
"Household/business A/C generally runs off electricity. I'm pretty sure that most of the electricity generated for this area is from coal or nuclear, right?"
so burning a lot of extra coal so businesses can keep their front doors open with the A/C on- that's fine with you? because coal doesn't generate carbon emissions? while it may have been a mistake on the writer's part to conflate A/C wastefulness with oil use, his larger point is that as energy of all sorts becomes more expensive, the need to reduce carbon emissions greater, and the demand on the NYC power grid ever increasing, this is a glaring example of waste.
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WTF, you get the same effect whenever a cop rolls down his window. Big deal.
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"I am sure you already know #16 and 17, that Gore has invested quite a bit in Futures on Global Warming."
No fucking shit, and it's a wise investment, given that it is fact.
Your logic is laughable.
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So then you agree that he is indeed profiting from his Global Warming marketing campaign?
And what exactly is laughable? Have you heard of Carbon Tax and Carbon Credits?
They are aiming to tax people for using commodities, such as energy, water usage and even the air they breathe in.
Gore has a lot to profit in Global Warming Futures, which is why he has been going on this massive marketing campaign on this hoax.
I find it funny how you and the other one quickly went to call me Right Wing, when I do not support Republicans and I would never vote for Mc Cain to office.
I would vote for Ron Paul, but we all know he is not winning (the sheeple probably have not heard of him).
Obama is the lesser of the evils and it saddens me that he is being backed by that opportunist Gore.
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I'm still pissed I never bought a "I survived the Blackout of 2003" t-shirt. I knew it would be cool one day and that day is today.
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And the Earth is flat too, and is the center of the universe.
I love when global warming (oops, I mean climate change) advocates get all pissy when anyone dares to question their belief that man-made C02 emissions cause climate change.
Now, I've got no problem with conservation efforts or being a good steward to the environment, but the idea that man-made emissions have a measurable impact on global temperatures is a recent theory that is NOT comparable to evolution. It's a scientific fact that the earth's temperature fluctuates, and always has.
The cause of the fluctuations has yet to be established, but there are FAR more likely contributing factors, like sunspots, ocean currents and volcanic activity than cows farting or driving a hummer instead of a prius.
That this theory can't even be questioned and must be taken on faith makes it a religion. That the proponents of global warming cry "heresy" when challenged makes it worse than most religions today.
Call me names if you want, but I challenge your belief. I recycle, don't pollute, and don't drive a gas guzzler. There are good reasons not to do those things that have nothing to do with your religion.
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As for stores keeping doors open to use AC to attract customers, I can see pros and cons to both sides of the issue. It's clearly wasteful if conserving electricity is the goal. However, considering how much money stores spend on advertising, rent in nice locations, etc., a few wasted dollars on AC probably seems like money well spent if it entices a few people to come in who would otherwise walk by on a hot day.
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thank god when the rolling blackout is instituted us Manhattanites won't be affected.
hello astoria and LIC thanks for taking one for the team.
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#27, Thank You! Nicely put.
And you're right, notice how now they are marketing the hoax as 'Climate Change' and not Global Warming (makes it more ambiguous due to the fact that they know that Earth temperatures fluctuate).
And it does seem to resemble a religion, I thought that Gore's assumptions were based on Science and not just merely following someone's blatant political agenda.
If it's based on science, then people should have the right to investigate and question and not just simply follow it by blind faith.
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I like how these stores help keep the sidewalks cool. It's 2008 - we shouldn't have to deal with uncomfortable weather anymore.
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Why shouldn't he profit from it? People profit from all kinds of stuff. People profit from creating medicines for diseases. It's kind of the same thing.
And I never called you a right winger. But for the record, Ron Paul is a republican, and a creationist to boot.
Go ahead and question and investigate all you want. You can investigate and question whether the Earth is in fact flat or not too. No one is stopping you. The amount of evidence is so overwhelming by now though, it's clear that those who still question questions like this are for the most part either idiots or disingenuous. Or both. It would be a better use of your intellectual energy to question and investigate SOLUTIONS to the problem, instead of nattering away over whether there is a problem to begin with.
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this wasn't happening 10 years ago? give me a break.
i can't wait for this fucking "green" fad to die.
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The amount of evidence is so overwhelming by now though, it's clear that those who still question questions like this are for the most part either idiots or disingenuous.
Climate fluctuates. That isn't the issue. Nor is the issue whether there is a link between rising temperature and C02 levels. The issue is whether rising C02 causes warming, or if it is just the effect of it. The evidence is not so overwhelming on that, it is just repeated so much that
I admit I am not sure if C02 contributes to global warming. It seems possible, but I have no doubt that other factors have much greater impact. Still, there is a logic in not gratuitously spewing C02 into the atmosphere. However, the green movement has effectively compromised a scientific theory to justify its mad obsession. They haven't even demonstrated that "carbon footprints" are in fact making any difference, much less a measurable one, in causing global temperature fluctuations. Now they are trying to micromanage individual behavior, raise money, etc. based on what is nothing more than a faith-based belief.
A butterfly flapping its wings might, theoretically, cause a hurricane on the other side of the world, so let's kill all the butterflies. It's absurd.
Should factories and industry be required to reduce pollution and harmful emissions to the extent possible? of course. but the fact that people are seriously acting like a t-shirt shop leaving its door open for a few hours a day in the summer is impacting the global climate is crazy.
It's no different that the Catholic church scaring people with threats of damnation into tithing and abiding by the rules of the church.
One thing I know for a fact, the climate is going to change whether people are using air conditioners or not. People could disappear from the Earth tomorrow, and climate change would go on.
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Hi all,
I'm the Peter K. mentioned in the article. I've contributed on this board before, so now I get to comment on my own self.
All the (faux or not) pithy/bitchy/moronic comments aside,the bottom line is that running the A/C like that puts a strain on generating capacity (regardless of the price of energy - that just makes it worse) that New York just can't afford to spare - now or in the future.
T-shirts aside, blackouts aren't fun. They cause property/revenue loss and more importantly can and do cost lives.
Also, it's estimated that by 2025, 1000MW of new electrical capacity is going to be required for the city. At least 80% is required to be generated within the five boroughs. That will mean more power plants being built within the city.
Things that can be done to reduce current load, as well as future demand need to be examined.
Whatever right a store has keep its doors open, needs to be weighed against the public interest of health, safety, and sustainability.
Peter
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Nick S,
I can't wait for this fucking sticking-your-head-in-the-sand fad to die.
...can someone explain to me how any form of mindless waste can be considered socially acceptable? At what stage do we officially become an Idiocracy??
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1000 MW? That's almost ONE POINT TWENTY-ONE JIGAWATTS!
Sorry, I had to.
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To JMH,
LOL.
But you're misspelling it. Apparently, 'jig' is the preferred pronounciation for gigawatts.
So Doc Brown was taking us all to school, even back then.
http://www.deloreanmotorcar.com/ec/jigawatts.htm
Peter
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any form of mindless waste can be considered socially acceptable?
the point is, this is NOT mindless waste, it's a way for a business to attract customers into their store on a hot day.
Obviously, if there were a brownout or blackout or strain on the power grid, this should be curtailed. The store isn't wasting money-- they are consciously deciding to spend extra on electricity to attract customers. If it didn't work, it would eliminate their incentive to do so.
Of course, to those concerned about the environment, "wasting" air conditioning becomes a moral issue. Of course, these businesses surely spend money on other forms of advertising that are similarly wasteful or have environmental impact. Printing brochures, fliers, handouts immediately comes to mind.
Why is it impossible to admit that certain things have a diminimis impact on pollution/the environment? Is it not possible to advocate for change while maintaining perspective?
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so i'm just wondering, from what estimable university exactly do some of you folks pretend to have earned a ph.d or masters of science? you know, i'm just curious, because your grasp on matters like entropy, general chemistry, logical argument, sound terminology, etc. is, you know, like, really astounding. i'm blown away. so, yeah, with which publisher do you release the inspired treatises i can only assume you're churning out in reams?
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>there were a brownout or blackout or strain on >the power grid, this should be curtailed.
Guess what? - That's already happening!
No matter the short-term "rationality" of the store-owner, in the end, everyone loses.
The laissez-faire/free-market sometimes breaks down.
A good example is inefficient major appliances in rental apartments. The tenant isn't going to buy a new, efficient fridge or dishwasher because they're not likely to take it with them when the move, and they're unlikely to stay there long enough to recoup the cost.
The landlord doesn't pay the electric bill, so he doesn't put one in either.
Without some kind of governemt regulation or mandate (with incentives/penalties, tens of thousands of inefficient fridges keep on running.
Peter
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SP, I know Ron Paul is a conservative, he is old school conservative not a neo-con.
Many of his ideas are progressive in nature.
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To eyekantspel,
I will start by saying I oppose stores keeping their doors open while running the A/C. I think it is about time that America wakes up and becomes more energy conscience. That is going to happen by teaching younger individuals how to act responsibly. The change won't come overnight for sure. Stopping blatant waste of energy like this is one of millions of things that can be done. I grew up in Texas. We never recycled as it was pretty much laughed at. Speaking to friends that still live there, it is about the same. Cities do not support active recycling. I then went to graduate school in Illinois and took a step back and realized how bad the "status quo" was in my life to that point in regards to recycling. I think energy (i will group everything into one being) is something to be more concerned about.
As for you quote about "Why is it impossible to admit that certain things have a diminimis impact on pollution/the environment? Is it not possible to advocate for change while maintaining perspective?". I will take a liberal leap and compare that statement to another statement --> "Why vote, your vote doesn't matter anyway". Do you vote? There are Millions of voters and each of them make up a whole. Get them all to change a little and you have a huge change.
Is closing the store doors going to save our planet? No, but it is a small step toward energy education. Let's not get bogged down in political agendas and finger pointing (i.e., CO2 leads to global warming).
It m
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Obviously, if there were a brownout or blackout or strain on the power grid, this should be curtailed. The store isn't wasting money-- they are consciously deciding to spend extra on electricity to attract customers. If it didn't work, it would eliminate their incentive to do so.
eyekantspell, how do you think strains on the power grid happen? From people using power. It's one thing if they are using power sensibly, it's another thing if they are wasting it.
Energy prices could actually be reduced for all of us, which is an environmental, moral, and national security issue-- if people could be bothered to do simple things like turn off lights when they're not in the room, turn off computers and stereos, etc., when not at home, and not pump air conditioned air into the summer heat (a losing battle outside closed doors). When individuals reduce their waste it is good for the entire community.
People lost their businesses here in Queens because of the last round of Con Ed blackouts. We can blame ConEd to some extent, but really, that's like blaming the ocean for not producing enough fish... while other people are throwing away extra fish. Power, especially that produced by resources on Earth, is finite...
If these stores wanted to be smart they could put a sign in their window saying "WE ARE AIR CONDITIONED". Leaving the doors open is just idiotic.
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It should be blamed on the crumbling infrastructure and lack of usage of alternative energy sources.
This whole ordeal of controlling the daily lives of people to 'save the planet' from natural occurrences and fluctuations in temperature and call it a 'global climate crisis' is the wrong step to take if we are to find solutions to this so call 'problem.'
The police now are telling people to conserve energy at night by turning off their lights and AC, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Climate Change seems to be quite comparable in forming a control grid for the masses.