June 11, 2008
Photographer's Film Forced from Hand on Coney Island
The war between photographers and police wages on, with the latest battleground being Coney Island. The Village Voice reports that Simon Lund, a Manhattan commercial photographer with a habit of hitting Coney 10 to 20 times each summer for personal photographic expeditions, was busted by the NYPD. The thing is, he didn't do anything illegal.
The paper talked to Todd Maisel, vice president of the New York Press Photographers Association and a Daily News photographer, who said "news photogs get into occasional scrapes with police, but most know never to give up their film."
In Lund's case, he was bullied by beach-goers as well! The Voice recounts his saga from Memorial Day when he was out with his wife and a woman accused him of clicking away at her son -- something he was unaware of, but is legal in any case. She had him accompany her to find an officer, and eventually the incident escalated when her family members joined in and shouted at the police until they made him turn over the film. Reportedly one officer told Lund, "You should destroy your film right now, or give it to her. You've got to give up your film, or things are going to get much worse for you." The NYPD declined comment.
Last year a Columbia Grad student was harassed by the cops while working on a subway photography project, something he is suing the NYPD for. The NYCLU has also filed several lawsuits against the NYPD for violating First Amendment rights; their suit also alleges that their Intelligence Division maintains a database of everyone "investigated for photography . . . regardless of the outcome of the investigation."
As for Lund, he plans to file a complaint with the Civilian Complaint Review Board.
Photographer on Coney Island via florence3's flickr.
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people are so f*cking stupid. relax!
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there's more to that story than has been reported.
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Who uses film?
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If he'd been under the boardwalk shooting up-skirt pics, I'm sure the cop would have said "I'm well versed on the legality of this issue ma'am, and he is totally within his rights to take such pictures in public under current law."
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I friend of mine visiting from Prague was taking picture of the Brooklyn Bridge and was picked up by police and taken downtown for a grilling (this was his 1st day in NYC).
He says they were polite but still... for him the whole experience was pretty unsettling. It's never fun being detained in a foreign land.
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oh well, imo coney island is complete trash. the type of people that go there ruin it for everyone else. im sure he can go and find a nicer place to take photos. dont get me wrong, coney island has great history, but its has being a shithole of a place the last couple of years.
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Do tell, famdoc.
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Whether it's a shithole is so not the point. Know your rights. These cops are like gestapo now. The other thing is people need to relax about being photographed. You get video's and photographed everywhere you go now.
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WOW, what a dumbass, he walks over to the cops and then gives up his film. what record of this did he make, NONE! He doesn't say if he ever got the badge #s or pictures of them or anything, so how is he going to file a claim with the CCRB, as if a complaint with them would ever get anywhere!
If a some cop/security guard/random person tells you to stop taking pictures, the next picture you take should be of that person.
NEVER EVER give them the memory card or film, the only way they will ever get that will be with a search warrant.
Photographers need to stand up to these bullies by NEVER giving them the memory card or film!
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I wish we could find out the identity of this crazy woman. Then everybody can snap her and her nutty family and put them all on Flickr, maybe even with their own photo pool. And she wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it.
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There's a story somewhere that of all terrorists attacks, none of them took any pictures of their targets. NONE of them. Stupid laws!
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I don't understand why that woman was making such a big stink about it. You're out in the public, and unless you saw him keep his lens pointing towards you everytime you looked, it's fair game. People are out in the public then they get outraged when they're recorded unintentionally by the photographers.
I guess photographers are the easiest to crack down on nowadays.
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So what's the "more", famdoc?
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I got encountered by the cop once, I wasn't in my uniform. I was just visiting the city on leave and taking pictures of where I live so I can remember when I'm away. I show them my military id and got away from it. --"
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How can the police possibly protect us and enforce the laws when they don't know the laws?
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Maybe photographers should start carrying around The Photographer's Rights phamplet... though I doubt that'd deter any cop wanting to harass you on it.
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A good read for those interested in the whole photographer-as-terrorist fixation:
Schneier on Security: The War on Photography
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Sounds to me like the "more" is that he was afraid he was about to get capped by this wacko family on the beach so he gave up the film quick.
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Funny thing about photographing in public is that it's protected by the First Amendment.
This past Sunday a protester of the Sean Bell verdict was screaming and handing out fliers in front of Rue 57 on 57th Street at 6th Avenue (in the presence of about 20 cops) they left him alone and I photographed him. He called me names and screamed at me that I did not have a legal right to photograph him—which I replied, "It's your right to preach your piece under the First Amendment, it's also my right to photograph you doing it under that same Amendment."
He ranted on and tried to incite a riot (among the Puerto Rican's passing by heading to the PR Parade) that I was an undercover cop (pig) trying to get him arrested and get his face on file etc. People like this are sociopathic and very afraid of photography and more afraid of the very rights and laws that grant them the rights that they're bitching about (basically, they think the law covers them, but not you).
In this situation, the law protects the photographer. The law states, that in a public setting and not on private property, you can photograph anything or anyone you want within reason (you cannot, however, zoom into an apartment or hotel room and photograph the people inside), but if you're on a beach or on the street, anything, including children are game. Even if someone asks you to stop you do not have to. And above all, you do not have to surrender your film, even to the police.
I recently was given this sheet and have printed it out and plan on carrying it with me to hand out in case this ever happens to me again. www.krages.com/phoright.htm
Also, here's the guy that went loco on me this past sunday:
www.flickr.com/photos/edstern/2561303371
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Well if someone keeps telling you to stop and you are harassing them that takes it to another level and can be harassment, give me a break.
But yeah in general you can photo in public obviously.
And entry 11, mocanlagunas, it's not stupid laws because it isn't a real law.
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i always try to carry the document edex mentioned:
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
print it and carry it.
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WTF? Are you kidding me? This is absurd. What is the world coming to?!? (rhetorical) What about all the tourist in our city that are all snap happy? Think about all the people they are capturing in their photos.
-- edEX, thanks for sharing your story. Me & my husband are avid photogs so it's good info to know in case some tool hassles us.
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Nothing is more terrifying to a cop than a camera...pointed at them.
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#20 Cuntry:
If someone keeps asking anyone to stop... What have we done wrong? It's harassment against us if they continue to ask (and this man never asked, he was belligerent cry baby the entire time). To make myself more clear, I wasn't standing 3 feet away from him.. I was literally on the street shooting him on the sidewalk at any given tim ei was more than 15-50 feet away from him—with a professional camera, not a point and shoot (be neither matters)... the action of photographing is covered under the First Amendment, not the camera.
Here's an idea to all you protesters and people who think your First Amendment is different than mine: Walk away... It's not different, it was written for all of us regardless...
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Unfortunately, the best one can do with aggravating people, in situ with cops, is to do a fake phone call. Say "Oops hold on, I'm getting a call." Fish your phone out of your pocket, pause, and then say "There's no way I'm going to hold that deposition tomorrow!
"I don't care what the judge thinks!
"Well, you can tell the IAB to call my ass! And don't ever call me on a f'ing [fill in the day here] again!"
Then say, "Sorry, I gotta go; I'm busy takin' pictures."
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Yes. this is fucked up. But anyone else also annoyed with dickhead photogs who think they are hot shit and try to bogart the space and so serious and self important? most photogs have god complexes and are really anal about getting the perfect shot.
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i'd like to hear more about who that lady was. i wonder what the first amendment says about the mafia's right to kick your a$$ for taking a picture of Family members.
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But anyone else also annoyed with dickhead photogs who think they are hot shit and try to bogart the space
what space? 1 square foot on earth?
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meL: I had a confrontation with someone while photographing in public and the cops came over to investigate. At first they were telling me I should delete my files, but I showed them the Photographer's Right document and they were surprisingly empathetic and let me go on my way. I wasn't doing anything wrong, I was photographing storefronts in Brooklyn, but the shopkeeper was really agressive and angry. I was actually happy to have the cops there to protect me.
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This is real spooky because I take photos at Coney Island all the time and as a matter of fact I was taking photos on Memorial Day. Good thing I didn't encounter this crazy bitch lady. But then, I was using a zoom lens.
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Perhaps it was someone cheating on a spouse and didn't want the outing documented.
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But edEx, you've said before that the First Amendment isn't for everyone, especially harmless artists who are shut down by the Secret Service for an exhibit that used a naughty word and referenced political candidates while doing so.
How is that any different than you aiming an object and shooting those same candidates (if you wanted to, that is)?
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short of taking pictures of infrastructure, the cops have no right to hassle you, so don't back down. unless you're holding a bag of weed. as far as the crazy bitch, we're probably not getting the whole story, or this guy's a putz for following her anywhere!
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28 - what I mean is that it's like when you are walking by and there is a photagrapher taking a picture. you don't want to get in his shot so you courteously wait but the douche is too self absorbed that he just snaps away all day oblivious to common courtesy. So then you have to get in his shot and either you piss him off cause you get in his shot or your own privacy issues have been violated.
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Last summer I was on the boardwalk at Coney Island and I was sitting on a bench with the D80 around the neck. This guy comes up to me and we start talking and he says he is a "photographer" and he likes to take "candid" shots of female beachgoers. That is the kind of guy who causes problems for the rest of us.
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Dalton - you're absolutely right on that. It could go both ways, I remember NewYorkShitty had an encounter where a homeowner thought that she was up to no good and called the cops on her... though the cops sided with the homeowner.
In any case, I suppose it would depend on the situation for a cop to make their call of you being a friend or foe.
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#34: Pussy. So what if you get in the way of some photog's shot? What are they gonna do? Drop their $2,000 Hasselblad to beef it up? No. they expect people to fuck up their shot so they just wait and act all angry and impatient. There's nothing I enjoy more than ruining their shoot. Fuck them for thinking this town's their private backdrop.
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Yeah, homeless people everywhere and i'm going to be upset because some photographer, on one occassion, was told by a cop to stop taking pictures of some lady's kid?
It sounds like Lund pissed some mom off who thought he was taking pictures of her kid, she had others join her side (article says beachgoers were bullying him as well) and the cop felt like the best way to defuse the situation was to have the guy get rid of the pictures. Was the cop wrong? Probably.
I don't really care though. Was Lund tasered or shot? no. He can just go back later and take pictures once crazy lady and aggressive cop leave.
Easier than all these whiny lawsuits.
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I'm constantly amazed at how few people (and cops) actually know their constitutional rights and what is (supposedly) protected.
I'm further amazed when people don't see the reason to stand up against even the smallest denial of these rights, or see the harm that could cause.
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#34 babyhitler. I usually wave people past until there's no one to wave and then shoot, but hey, I'm courteous... and sometimes a douche bag.
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The cops should know the law and tell the lady and the crowd to get lost otherwise theyll be arrested for inciting a riot and wasting cop time.
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There is talk that Coney Island as we know it may not be around much longer. Many of the rides and attractions will be demolished to make way for condos and some sort of entertainment center. It is more important now than ever before that photographers get out there and document its final days.
Photography is still LEGAL in this country in spite of what cops want us to think. There is NO LAW in New York City against taking pictures of ANYTHING that can be seen from public space and that INCLUDES children and infrastructure. Cops need to enforce the laws as written - they are not legislators and should NOT be creating laws that do not exist.
For more horror stories in the war against photographers go to www.nycphotorights.com.
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It's a public place for petes sakes! Some people enjoy making trouble for others with authority figures. Yes, I hope Lund throws the works at the City. This needs to be nipped in the bud. That woman is like those in the Salem Witch Trials. Those kind of people get off on accusing people of things for their own personal ego and benefit.
Unfortunately the police are between a rock and a hard place. They do need better training and sensitivity to issues relating to photography. There is a boom in photography now that just about everybody can have a digital camera.
I'm a little antsy about taking DIRECT photographs of children if only for the small number of weirdos who get off on any images of a child. If children are in an open place such as Coney Island however they become only one part of the scene not usually the main focus.
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#34 - three second rule. I'll wait three seconds for a tourist to take their picture. After that, you've got to expect people to walk through the frame.
Of course, when I'm taking pictures I do my best to just...not stand where someone can walk through the shot. It's really not that hard -- but you've got to remember that a lot of the people taking pictures in New York aren't necessarily experienced in (a) photography or (b) living in such a crowded, busy place.
So while I don't think anyone's obligated to give those people three seconds, it's a nice thing to do. (Unless you're in a hurry -- in which case, of course, all bets are off.)
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What would WeeGee do?.
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do we really need another picture of anything anyway?
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edEx, you're right, you have the First Amendment on your side. Nobody should have taken your film and you shouldn't have been harassed. On the other hand, if someone is repeatedly asking you to stop taking their photograph, wouldn't common courtesy compel you to stop? Is it really so important to take one more artsy photo of a complete stranger, that will end up with the 2892849384234 others on Flickr, that you will completely disregard someone's wishes about being photographed or having their image publicly displayed?
And yes, I know that if someone is in a public place, they're fair game. I still think that if photographers want to be respected they need to respect those around them.