April 24, 2008
NYC Pizza Rules, But Does Anyone Really Know Why?
A Wired reporter bemoaning the pizza backwater that is San Francisco rang up Mario Batali to find out why New York Pizza is so magnificent and got an intriguing theory out of the celebrity chef: New York’s old pizza ovens “capture the gestalt of beautifully cooked pizza.” A food development consultant believes Batali’s abstract ‘gestalt’ is, to scientists, vaporized ingredients that become “volatilized particles and attach themselves to the walls of the baking cavity. The next time you use the oven, these bits get caught up in the convection currents and deposited on the food, which adds flavor."
In other words, that famous New York flavor is the accumulated history of every pizza ever made since the oven’s first pie. But the secretive Sal Basille, co-owner of super-trendy East Village pizzeria Artichoke, wants Wired to know that great New York pizza is not to be found on Manhattan:
There’s really no good pizza in Manhattan. The outer boroughs have the best pizza. That’s why I came here. Back in the day all the old-timers lived in Manhattan, but they moved to the outer boroughs and the trade got lost here. And they don’t show everybody their tricks. I’ve been doing this since I was 10 years old. I can’t tell you why ours is the best around; my cousin and I are like artists and we let the pizza do the talking.Other theories about New York’s dominance point to the unique quality of New York water, which makes pizza dough and bagels so distinctive. But pizza blogger Adam Kuban at Slice thinks the water logic is tortured: “New York pizza is good because there are so many pizzerias, leading to a competitive atmosphere.”
And Domenico De Marco, owner of the legendary Di Fara in Midwood, tells us his pizza is great because his gas oven cooks at 900 degrees. Most pizza ovens today “go to 500 or 550 degrees.” Could it be De Marco owes some of his success to his oven’s doubly-volatized particles?
Photo of Domenico De Marco at Di Fara courtesy Dalton Rooney.
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patsy's is good pizza. I just had grimaldi's the other day and it was shit!
Difara cooks his pizza at 900? No wonder it's burnt and shitty. OVERRATED.
I really don't know why this "NY has the best pizza" legend is still soldiering on. It hasn't been true for a long time. Yes, NY has some great pizza. So does SF. So does Seattle. So does Rome and Florence. The average NY slice of pizza isn't remarkable in the slightest. To get good pizza, you have to wait in hour-long lines with guidos and tourists, after hour-long subway rides.
While the best pizza I've had has in fact been in Brooklyn and the Bronx, it's a gross overstatement to say there's no good pizza in Manhattan. You just have to seek them out. And even mediocre NY pizza is still better than anything that passes for pizza anywhere else in the other 50.
Once you go west of the Hudson, it's not pizza, it's crap.
Lombardi's (in Manhattan) is still good, even if packed with tourists. It's even better a day later.
The best pizza IS in NYC but as the post states, you have to go to the outer boroughs.
I agree, NY pizza as a whole is awful! I can't tell how many slices I've had that are extra floppy from both the over-abundance of sauce and saturation of oil in this town. Last night, my husband and I had a frozen pizza from Fresh Direct that was better than any of our local purveyors. I've also had most of the "famous" places and generally speaking, they are good but not worth the effort required to get it.
Lombardi's is the only decent pizza i've ever got in manhattan. brooklyn is where it's at. i've had a few mediocre brooklyn pizzas, but brooklyn mediocre is still a LOT better than any pizza i had while living in the midwest.
Patsy's in E. Harlem is awesome, and luckily devoid of any tourists. Lombardi's, Una Pizza, Artichoke, Otto...all great, all in Manhattan.
I think Lombardi's is as much a suburbanized cliche as Magnolia Bakery cupcakes.
I don't know why, or how, or if it even makes any sense - but that place Karavas on 7th avenue has the tastiest slices I've had, and I've been here my whole life.
There is also some good pizza places to the be found out of the city in Westchester and Orange County along with Long Island.
If you ever get off the ferry on Staten Island there is a pizza place on Stuyvesant place near the courthouse called A&S that has the most amazing pizza. It's a hole in the wall but it's ovens have 30 years of gesalt to make the most delicious pizza. It's worth a look.
Once you go west of the Hudson, it's not pizza, it's crap.
Yet another of your New York-centric rants. We're not number one in everything no matter how many times you say so.
Here's another take on west coast pizza. The URL sez it all. And it's a different kind of gestalt that adds da flava to east coast pizza.
http://wfmu.org/LCD/22/sucky_pizza.html
soon there will be no good pizza in nyc since all the transplanted hipsters living in nyc on daddy's dime will just come to accept the medicore mall food which reminds them of home...
lets go to nyc, yeah,
what do we eat,
sbarros,
lets go to an exciting ny destination,
hard rock cafe,
im hungry where should be get a quick bite
hotdog cart or mcdonalds
need some coffee, oh i know
how about starbucks
time to go home, wow nyc was fun!!!
**********
real nyc slice is like the bronx back in the days,
real smartasses would check the bottom and throw the hot slice back if it was burnt!
extra anything meant extra!
not little pieces of something scattered around
if you can still see alot of red & white that shit aint no extra nothing...
might as well just ask for some _____ sprinkled on top...
I sandwiched 3 years in the Bay Area between my time here in NYC. And I always found it funny that, despite the globalized world we live in, you can't get a decent slice in San Francisco and you still can't get a halfway decent burrito in New York.
If I could just import one real, authentic Mission District burrito joint to NYC, I'd be in heaven. That's pretty much the only thing I miss about the Bay Area.
'Once you go west of the Hudson, it's not pizza, it's crap.'
What a profound statement.
Now tell me you've had pizza everywhere west of the Hudson. No? Didn't think so.
Once you go west of the Hudson, it's not pizza, it's crap.
I consider myself NYC centric but that's a false statement. I've had pizza in NJ that was on par with most local joints within the five boroughs, not to mention some excellent old school italian joints in the lower hudson valley towns.
Worst pizzas I've had was in western NY. Crusts as thick as rolls and a cheese/sauce combination straight from Kraft. Just awful.
Right on rtd2101! No burrito in New York compares to a Chabela burrito!
Luzzo's pizza on 1st ave between 12 and 13th is awesome. Great margherita pie with the best crust. Wood fired oven, too.
enzo's pizza ftw.
i order from him so much, he recognizes my voice!
Once you get out of the NYC metro area, the pizza does suck, or at least it is not recognizable as pizza.
Some of the variations on the standard pizza are good, such as the Northeastern Pennsylvania tavern and bakery pizza (which we have seen spelled "pitza" or some such), Trenton tomato pie and Chicago deep dish, but they are not really pizza. We have gone in search of good pizza elsewhere, and have basically come up empty, getting something worse than your average slice joint in the city.
As a rule of thumb, leave the tri-state, the pizza sucks. They think Domino's is pizza in places like a small town in Wisconsin. There are places as close as New Jersey that look like you are going to get a decent slice there, but you get something that seems more like a coal tar byproduct than pizza.
I can't comment on pizza outside NYC since as a native New Yorker I'm naturally inclined to think they all suck ass. I know it's not true (there some good stuff in New Haven) but I'm obliged to think that way.
It is however totally true that in general you have to get out of Manhattan for good NYC pizza. My three faves all happen to be in Queens these days: New Park in Howard Beach, Amore in Whitestone and for whole pies only there's Nick's in Forest Hills.
I like Dani's in Kew Gardens
Patsy's and Viva Herbal. Those are the only pizzerias I willingly go to.
grimaldi's + graziella's
The best slices I've ever had were in BK but Franks on East 23rd St I still get about once a week.
Best slice of NY style neapolitan pizza is on the Upper West Side. Not telling all you assholes where though.
L&B greatest Pizza in NY
most pizza i've had in manhattan and brooklyn is terrible. you've gotta search hard for something good.
in rochester it's almost impossible to get bad pizza.
same goes for wings.
New Haven style thin crust is better than anything anywhere. You people need to get your head out of your collective asses and try new things. It will rock your socks off!
Best pizza I ever had was in Glen Cove NY .
The absolute worst pizza on the face of the earth is in St Louis Mizzourha...
I just took my sweetie (who lives in Brooklyn) to Lombardi's today. We both agreed that it is by far, the best pizza in New York! We loved it.
(16) and (19), here's your answer for good-as-SF burritos in the metro area:
http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm
I can't comment on pizza outside NYC since as a native New Yorker I'm naturally inclined to think they all suck ass.
Really? New Yorkers insist NY pizza is better than what you will find in...Italy?? Ohhhh-kaaay.
Edgeland you're out of your mind. Impossible to find bad pizza in Rochester? Wings? Sorry, Rochester contributes only two things to the junk food culinary world:
Trash Plates
Garbage Plates
Western NY pizza is atrocious, utterly devoid of any merit whatsoever.
"Difara cooks his pizza at 900? No wonder it's burnt and shitty. OVERRATED."
duane "my parents didn't love me enough" reade, is a detriment to this estimable site. It has probably learned its lesson and i would be surprised if it ever posted again.
DiFara now and forever!
the hyperbole in here is killing me! (rim shot) And not a single mention of Joe's, ridiculous.
no good nyc pizza? try difara's, grimaldi's, GRUPPO (my favorite), even frannie's or any other other of the suggestions. there's good food to be had.
want a good burrito or mexican? try matamoros on 5th avenue in sunset park. they or any of the crowded eateries will put the mission to shame.
I'm visiting NYC, and from SF (usually read SFist). This post is totally helpful, as I'm still hoping to have my first slice fo NY pizza this weekend. Everyone says to head to Lombardi's, but is it really that good?
so, just to put this fascinating discourse in perspective, exactly how fat are you people?
Purely personal preference, take it with a grain of (garlic) salt:
Fascati's in Brooklyn
Full Moon in the Bronx
Is pizza better here than in Italy? Well, it is different. Bear in mind it's not an Italian dish, but an Italian-American dish. It's really an apples and oranges comparison.
While my earlier post may be guilty of the same over-generalization I was criticizing, I will say that in my experience, the only decent flat-crust pizza I've found outside the Five Boroughs was usually made by someone from the Five Boroughs.
The Wired article mentions Arturo's, and it is damn good.