Gothamist: New Subway Cops Armed to the Teeth to 'Fight Terror'

Potosi

Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:46:29 -0500

Police and military carrying machine guns in subways and trains will do nothing to prevent or deter terrorist bombings. THe real and only reason these squads are being added is to quickly institute martial law against the civilian population if there is another large attack. Think about it. Terrorists don't give a damn about their own lives, they blow themselves up. Gun of any size won't scare them. This is for scaring and controlling the general population.

tingo

Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:39:09 -0500

Wouldn't plainclothes cops be more effective? Maufactured consent through the media plus instilling constant fear through shit like this = control. Welcome to the Brave New World. Here we go into the further acceptance of a police state.

Snoopy

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:36:26 -0500

It's very simple why they are doing it. The boys in blue get to dress up like military folks and get paid overtime for doing so. Twelve hour shifts relate to four hours of overtime. Every day. Where were the boys in blue on 9/11? Backing off when the iron got a bit too hot. The chance of them stopping or inhibiting any terrorist attack is like Sponge Bob giving birth to Paris Hilton's twins.

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:48:27 -0500

dio im sure thats not what your family would say if you got 7 bullets pumped into your brain. commenters on the nydialynews are actually character assinating sean bell, including mentioning and stressing that he was fathered a child out of wedlock,,, are you that kind of person? oh sean bell smoked some weed? they were at a shitty bar in a shitty nieghborhood, all these are exact same reasons why i wonder why there are no white cokehead stockbrokers being executed outside Scores? becuase they are white and at a fancier location?

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:36:54 -0500

lets see how you people actually follow the thinkspeak propaganda.. see those booths at the end of the platforms in stations leading to underwater routes. (covered in acid graffiti by the way) they are supposed to prevent terrorists from accessing the tunnels by walking onto the tracks at the end of the platforms... sounds great. now think really really hard, i know you want to believe that they are protecting you, but wait...oh now you get it... see...if a terrorist wanted blow up the tunnel all he had to do is ride the train into the tunnel....pull the cord and exit to the catwalk or trackbed... no you say the police are preventing someone from bringing large qaunities of explosives into the tunnel... hmmm, now think harder, how to you get into the tunnel from street level, inlcuding points right before its underwater and theres no more exits,,,you got it! the exit hatch, easily accessible and ungaurded on the streets... now you get it,,no they are alarmed you say, maybe an anti terro cop is lying in wait for evil doers... how oh how can someone get a large amount of explosives into one place... divvy up about 10 - 15 lbs between 3-6 people in a cordinated effort at different stations and meeting up in one place...get it aka pelham 123 style... you also do not need to actually blow the tunnel up and fill it with water, just blowing up anythinig in a train or tunnel will bring quick mass hysteria and police respinse shutting down most or all transit for days, maybe until the scared sheeple actually beg for super police powers and increased anti terror funding and military like patrols and searches... have you heard of a false flag operation, thats coming kiddies, if they cant get what they want by asking nicely they will get what they want by making the public beg for it! babyhitler this sounds familiar?

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:33:38 -0500

ihateallbrokers: we get the point, cops make mistakes and some/many of them lack good character which sucks because they carry firearms. they still have a job to do.

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:14:35 -0500

Last autumn, over a hundred of them went on unofficial strike after two of their colleagues were charged with murder for shooting in the street Harry Stanley, a Scottish carpenter who had been carrying a chair leg in a plastic bag. An anonymous caller had identified him as an Irishman carrying a shotgun. There is no offense, in British law, of being drunk while in charge of a chair leg. Even if there were, the law is clear. The police are not allowed to shoot anyone unless they honestly and reasonably believe that it is the only way to save other lives (including their own). A dogged five-year campaign by Stanley's family, represented by the law firm of Cherie Blair, the prime minister's wife, led to a trial for murder of the two policemen who shot him. They were acquitted after persuading the jury that they had made an honest mistake. They have now been rearrested following a further investigation: Forensic evidence suggests they shot him from behind, so he couldn't have been brandishing the chair leg at them.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:22:40 -0500

"Until we get a serious dedicated security system to watch the stations, random death squads aren't going to do much good." this would be nice, but how? and with what? without invading privacy and unnerving you in MUCH more invasive ways, such security is, at the present, impossible. until then, the tested method of using bomb sniffing dogs to find bombs works just fine and sub machine guns are a good deterrent. combine the two and you have a relatively cheap method of security. sure it's not perfect, but nothing is.

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:12:35 -0500

"Instead of giving himself up, the man panicked, vaulted the ticket barrier and sprinted down the escalator to a platform where a train was already waiting with its carriage doors open. Several armed officers were in pursuit and, according to witnesses, the suspect stumbled as he tried to get into one of the carriages. By the time he half-ran, half-fell onto the train, three officers, at least one of them holding a low-velocity pistol, pounced on him, shooting him five times in the head." It was not until three weeks later that a leak of documents from the investigation into the killing established that almost every detail of this account was false. De Menezes was not "of Asian appearance" -- nor, incidentally, was the man the police were really hunting, a Somali. The senior officer involved "who gave his men orders" was a woman. De Menezes did not run through the station but paused to pick up a free newspaper, and used his season ticket to pass through the turnstiles normally. He did not run until the train came in. He did not fall over until a police officer grabbed him and held his arms, immobilizing him. At this point another police officer shot him in the head -- not five, but seven times. Some of these details are still contested, but a photograph of his body shows quite clearly what may be the most important fact: He was not wearing a heavy top that might have suggested or concealed a bomb, but a pale-blue denim jacket.

iank

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:12:12 -0500

I, for one, don't see how this makes any sense. The armed guards at busy subway stops, Grand Central, Penn Station, and Wall Street do nothing but unnerve me. And isn't a suicide bomber's goal to die? Wouldn't this help them? I was in London for the bombings. My stop got hit in the second round. And you know what? Those guys were carrying backpacks. The only person anyone with a gun managed to stop was an innocent Brazilian electrician who ran becuase he thought it was immigration. Until we get a serious dedicated security system to watch the stations, random death squads aren't going to do much good.

lilsubwaycrybaby

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:01:19 -0500

This isn't about terrorists... It's about drugs.

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:44:39 -0500

a Brazilian electrician named Jean Charles de Menezes. Until the shooting of de Menezes, few British citizens were aware that there are now, under a policy instituted in 2001 by the Association of Chief Police Officers and Lord John Stevens, the former police commissioner, hundreds of armed plainclothes policemen on the streets of London who are permitted to shoot dead, without any warning, anyone whom they suspect to be a suicide bomber.

ihateallbrokers

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:41:15 -0500

Sep 7, 2005 | When London's Metropolitan police force announced that it had fatally shot a suspected suicide bomber at the Stockwell tube station on July 22, 15 days after the terrorist attacks that killed 53 people in the city and one day after four more suicide bombers failed to detonate themselves and escaped without killing anyone, the overwhelming reaction of the city's residents, it's safe to say, was joy and relief. But within 24 hours it became apparent to police commissioner Sir Ian Blair that police had killed an innocent man

JacqueMehoff

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:40:43 -0500

could this fit in SWPL?

EastRiver

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:19:16 -0500

This does not make New Yorkers safer, it just makes them more uncomfortable in their own city. Speak for yourself.

edEx

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:50:56 -0500

#30 i misread. #13 *Aaahhh....the illusion of freedom continues. Enjoy the police state* the united states is nowhere near a police state, not even close. as for the MP5... while a decent weapon, the Uzi is more fitted for crowd control, plus having only six parts, it's super easy to maintain.

Tim N.

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:38:45 -0500

Seeing these guys get on your car could turn any train into the BM train. :>)

GM

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:36:50 -0500

I can understand though if my job was to keep on a lookout for terrorists, even if there is a remote chance of getting into a firefight, it would be nice to have some serious firepower. My problem with guns like this is that I don't see visible safeties. When I was in Colombia all the national police had these big yellow safety sticks in their chambers, which is a really good idea. What strikes me it that it's almost like we're replacing the national guard with police units, and sending all the national guard over to Iraq.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:34:42 -0500

the patriot act is overreaction, this is not.

drewo

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:08:39 -0500

It's overreaction and overkill. This does not make New Yorkers safer, it just makes them more uncomfortable in their own city.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:58:24 -0500

EastRiver: apparently stating your "opinion" [read: facts] multiple times doesn't help, especially when people are already so paranoid. You know, the terrorists are going to get us no matter what, so what's the point in trying to prevent them? With guns. Our government just wants to point guns at us while we travel to work. What a waste of money.

jaycjay

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:53:32 -0500

"What the fuck is a submachine gun going to do in an enclosed space other than bloat the egos of those who carry them? " An MP5 makes a lot more sense in an enclosed space than does, for example, what the National Guard is carrying when they're posted in the transit system. And what people don't seem to understand is that the designation "machine gun" doesn't mean that the gun can only fire long, sustained bursts like a gangster's Tommy gun in the movies. These guns offer "selective fire." Depending on the exact model and configuration they can be used as fully automatic, semi-automatic (one shot at a time) or two-round or three-round bursts. And those bigger guns the National Guard is using usually have the same options. "Spraying bullets" isn't necessary.

EastRiver

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:34:35 -0500

I'm going to say this a second time: Cops patrolling the streets and subways does not equal a police state. If you want to debate this on its merits or cost effectiveness then do so. I don't think North Koreans or Cubans think that cops with guns is the problem. It's being dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night for something they said to the neighbor who reported them to the secret police and then being detained without trial. Jose Padilla may have a legitimate gripe with the government. Passing a cop with a machine gun in the subways of New York does not make you any less free.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:29:31 -0500

"Has there ever been an act of terrorism on the NYC subways?" Has there ever been an act of terrorism on our ports? No. So let's stop all the silly patrol nonsense there, too.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:24:01 -0500

Also, of course this isn't the only attemopt at stopping subway bombings. No one said "We've solve terrorism," they've just said, we are now slightly safer, which we are. And reltaively speaking this is pennies spent.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:22:57 -0500

Bizzle: I didn't make the comment to say that it's a perfect sollution, I made it to refute the asinine postulation that it's a uniquely American solution and the product of paranoia.

Kreo

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:20:40 -0500

So what do you suggest that the police do to prevent/thwart terrorism? Embed at least one FBI agent in each mosque and collect intelligence; tap each imam's phone/computer; stop pretending Osama cannot be caught and destroy his org; monitor explosives and components traffic/purchases; heavily tax oil companies and stimulate alternative energy production and use - all this is much more effective. I was entering the subway a few days ago, I had not shaved for a week and had a good dark beard, had a crazy look in my eyes from sleepless nights filled with lots of work, had wires sticking out of my large bag and overall looked middle-eastern and suspicious. There was a bag check point on my way we 3 cops manning it. They looked at me and I thought they were gonna stop and check me. However they stopped a blond slavic-looking teenager who was walking in the same direction with me, why - because he was walking closer to them. My point is all these bag checks are not even done right.

drewo

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:14:16 -0500

So what do you suggest that the police do to prevent/thwart terrorism? Has there ever been an act of terrorism on the NYC subways? All the terrorism on our soil since 2001 has been from home grown good ol' Americans - from shootings on college campuses, to high school shootings to mall shootings. Another future source of domestic terrorism will probably come from all the Iraq War veterans, who are coming home with all kinds of physical and mental problems, to a VA system that will not be able to handle them. You can expect a few of those experienced combat veterans to go nuts in the near future.

PnonG

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:09:56 -0500

i remember being in Egypt and seeing machine gun wielding soldiers at a bus stop or wherever and thinking, "wow... guess I'm really not in America". well guess again! can anything be done about this ninja police state we are slipping into??????????

Bizzle

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:05:46 -0500

Dio - Just because other countries do it, does not make it a good idea. You can re-state you opinion as much as you like and it does not sway me from believing that it would be a better idea to throw money at people to think of better ideas for a resolution for something like this rather than additional arms. Maybe the goverment agencies do not want us to see this, but I really hope that there more money being spent on intelligance than over-arming local agencies.

Spiritof76

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:58:22 -0500

So what do you suggest that the police do to prevent/thwart terrorism? They really can't do much, period. If someone wants badly enough to blow themselves and bystanders up, they'll find a way. What we should be doing is not living in constant terror. You're more likely to get hit and killed by a cab than to be blown up by a terrorist. I don't understand how anybody can misinterpret this article to mean six men total. Even NYC government couldn't manage to burn $151 million on just six men, unless they were all bionic.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:51:43 -0500

Bizzle, I'll say it again, this is nto American. We're late in the game in this regard. Read my comments above or just spend some time in Europe and look for guys with assault rifles standing on random street corners. this has nothing to do with panic. The patriot act, etc., do, but this absolutely by no means has anything to do with panic.

Bizzle

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:38:05 -0500

Thanks for your info everyone. I probably just watch too much TV. Let's face it, terrorists want us to live in a state of panic just like they do in their militant countries. To that end, they have won by having us use our typical American "Over the Top" response and implement things like this to give us a false sense of security. Sure I don't have to worry about anyone stealing my iPod, but I do not feel any more secure from a group of organized specialists with an agenda.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:34:46 -0500

Meh, this kinda of thing's been going on since way before 9/11 in many developed countries. It's been the norm in parts of Italy for 40 years. This is basically what the Hong Kong TSA is like. Guys with carbine assualt rifles loitering throughuot the airports. It works. It's a great deterrent for any type of crime and it will make it that much harder for would be bombers to formulate subway bombing plans.

EastRiver

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:32:57 -0500

You are completely wrong. You would be better off keeping your stupid comments to yourself. Same to you.

jt10000

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:31:18 -0500

"It's a deterrent. If the London transit cops had rifles and submachine guns, maybe those terrorists would've thought twice about bombing their mass transit system." I don't see how this could possibly deter suicide bombers or people hiding bombs. It's bogus -- an effort to look like the govt is doing something. The money would be better spent in normal efforts to catch criminal or terrorists, not putting on a show for the sheeple.

JenChungsBra

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:29:56 -0500

Seems to me like a strategy by Ray Kelly to get the federal government to pay for regular policing of the subway system in order to bring rising crime rates down. I doubt he believes that this shit will stop any real terrorist -- particularly those willing to die -- but it could definitely stop a mugging or two. They do have sidearms after all.

Papercutninja

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:29:37 -0500

So what do you suggest that the police do to prevent/thwart terrorism?

Peter

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:27:50 -0500

One of those teams of six cops would make a nice tasty yummy target for a suicide bomber.

SP

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:20:04 -0500

"the same people crying "police state" would be complaining" You are completely wrong. You would be better off keeping your stupid comments to yourself.

Kreo

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:18:32 -0500

edEx , it is not 6 officers for 8.5 ml ppl. The author sad "groups of six", there is no mention of the number of groups. The whole point of this is to make people feel safer and to make potential terrorists more cautios and careful wth their execution plans. These groups however have no better chance of stopping a terrorist than a regular joe 6 pack. I like this police BS, after 9/11 they started carrying gas masks, now these guys are wearing kevlar - how does it help regular people? I mean the cops raise their chances of survival, but how does that help the commuters? It could even make it worse: such cop would "PANIC" (see Sean Bell case) and WILL RUN FOR HIS LIFE to the nearest exit, and will clear out his path using a submachine gun? Lets issue them grenades also. And install napalm barrels on the ceilings of subway stations.

JacqueMehoff

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:12:18 -0500

Is this an election year?

Papercutninja

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:11:38 -0500

And yet, if the NYPD/government/etc etc didn't do anything in regards to terror the same people crying "police state" would be complaining about how the government doesn't do anything to protect us. Just keep complaining about everything "the Man" does. Because that's productive.

SP

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:08:57 -0500

#15 and #18 hit it right on the head. This is nothing but security theater, this has absolutely zero value in terms of offering real protection from or prevention of a terrorist attack. What is most outrageous is that this is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE, this money could actually be spent of something useful and effective, like, say, schools, health care, environmental clean up, or even just better roads. This is just shameful and disgusting PR.

MidCFrank

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:05:28 -0500

How does this stop anyone who is ready to kill his/herself anyways???? Just like the stupid bag searching -- if someone sees cops going through bags, they can just go to the next entrance. This country runs on fear. Expect more.

Politburo

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:03:51 -0500

Bizzle, that is a possibility with any firearm, but an MP-5 is not much more powerful than a glock.. they use the same ammunition. The M-4 would be a different story.

Gustastic

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:00:31 -0500

Great. The good people of NYC aren't harassed enough daily as it is, huh? What the fuck is a submachine gun going to do in an enclosed space other than bloat the egos of those who carry them? I agree with the idea that there are going to be a lot more Sean Bell cases out there after this. Speaking of which, who else is going to keep their eyes on the news tomorrow? If the wrong verdict comes out, we might just have our own version of the LA riots.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:56:22 -0500

Excuse me, I'm an idiot. Joeb, the last comment was dirrected to you. To Bizzle, there's some risk of a sub-machine gun round going through a person and hitting the next. Though sub-machine guns use the same rounds handguns use and in this application they'll likely be hollow point round, increasing the damage of impact and lessening the chance of a shot traveling through the body. Also, you guys need to consider that these guys never want to use guns. They're put there to scare would be terrorists.

Papercutninja

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:54:00 -0500

It's a deterrent. If the London transit cops had rifles and submachine guns, maybe those terrorists would've thought twice about bombing their mass transit system. They are teams of 6 and like the NYPD Hercules units, they can pop up any where at any time, further increasing their effectiveness as a deterrent. If terrorists were/are planning something they won't know if the Torch units will happen to be in the area. It throws a monkey wrench into their planning system. Also, cops don't fire into crowds, so don't worry about getting hit from a stray bullet from a cop's submachine gun. That only happens in the movies.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:52:40 -0500

By, most will be carrying sub machine guns, I imagine. It's as much to deter as it is for possible shoot-outs, though if push comes to shove, sub-machine guns like the mp5 should be the most effective weapon for stopping would be suicide bombers IF they're spotted in time. The rifle pictured, an m-4 carbine would be almost entirely for scaring people, I suspect. They're great at longer ranes and they have what some would call "good stopping power" but I can't imagien they're worth a shit on the subway.

Dio

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:49:04 -0500

This sort of thing is pretty common in a lot of countries. I've seen similar in Europe, Hong-Kong and who knows where else.

gasoline serpent

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:47:09 -0500

Big guns and dogs? Expect the subways to smell like urine more often these as people piss their pants far more regularly.

joeb

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:45:29 -0500

I don't really get the machine guns. What kind of situation would they actually be useful in? If someone blows up a subway car, are these teams going to start spraying bullets across the subway platform ?

WesTheYeTi

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:44:05 -0500

JC! That's a lot of weaponry. And since when have automatic rifles stopped suicide bombers?

Bizzle

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:40:12 -0500

I am not a weapon specialist by any means, but if he was to fire a submachine gun into someone in a crowded station, is there the possibility that the round would rip thru one person and into the next bystander?

Tgirl

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:36:32 -0500

is it me, or what...? I just can't see how someone, albeit well-trained, can fight terror with submachine guns, etc. The whole thing about terror is that is is not like combat, it is elusive and relys on the element of surprise. Would this approach have helped on 9/11, or in the London attacks?

EastRiver

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:35:41 -0500

If you think this is a police state I suggest you go live in Cuba or China for a few years. And I don't mean that in a "love it or leave it" way. I mean that you really have no clue.

Ralph

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:09 -0500

Aaahhh....the illusion of freedom continues. Enjoy the police state.

edEx

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:28:45 -0500

6 officers for almost 500 stations and 8.5 million people? if a person or organization wants to use terrorism as an effective tool, it will and there's no amount of security that can stop them. see Israel for reference.

willw915

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:24:16 -0500

I can't wait to ride next to one of them on the Molester, uh, I mean the six train. "Pardon me mr. terror-fighter, but your large shaft is uncomfortably pressing against my leg." that sounds like a great way to start any morning!

Snoopy

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:23:09 -0500

That should do it. The only problem is all the enemy has to do is wait for a 12 for the price of 6 sale at Duncan Donuts and there goes security.

zodak

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:16:48 -0500

there are going to be a lot more "sean bell" trials in our future.

jaja007

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:14:26 -0500

Whatever it takes to stop Puerto Ricans borrowing bikes..

Bizzle

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:13:36 -0500

Clearly wearing a uniform, carrying the standard issue weaponry, and being observant would not get the job done...

madzack

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:02:08 -0500

police state.

Phineas Gage

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:01:48 -0500

Nice, because nothing makes me feel safer than groups of dudes in kevlar and riot gear carrying machine guns.

nivek

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:58:46 -0500

YOU THERE! LET GO OF THAT DOOR! STOP DELAYING THE TRAIN OR I'LL FIRE! That would work wonders :)

Ph

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:54:45 -0500

LOL, nice.

Bizzle

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:53:39 -0500

Poor guy. Having a hard time getting out of that tiny car carrying that big gun to fight terrorism.

Bottomless Chips

Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:52:49 -0500

Note to al-Qaida: You can no longer have your terrorism meetings on NYC Subways.