City Council Approves Congestion Pricing, 30-20

The [potential] money from the Port Authority is meaningless in terms of reducing traffic from Jersey and providing an equal disincentive for Jersey drivers to come into the city. The drivers couldn't care less unless it's coming directly out of their pockets, so this still does not address the issue. This plan will remove NY drivers from their own streets but allow NJ drivers to continue doing what they've been doing all along.

how bout implementing a carpooling plan? count how many single driver cars there are in Manhattan.
like jcb mentioned the money ain't coming out of the commuters pocket, he'll just expense it and the company will pay it because they feel that he/she's a valued employee. only suckers and the poor pay for their commutation costs.
and, more bike lanes, I just bought a bike and a mace carrier.

when/if this passes all you fools will finally realize you are guaranteed higher subway fares. We've gone through this dance before but with slightly different scenery. basically the state/city /fed gov't will reduce the normal funding they give to transit citing financial conditions. This will never come back and the main source of revenue will be congestion fees and of course fares (and that is if none of it gets eaten by new bureaucracy). we learned just last week that all the service benefits from the last hike will not be coming. i love how people can be continuously fooled with the same shell game - just wrap it in a pretty environmental wrapper... smart.

I am not a driver.

I am a bicyclist.

I oppose this plan, because I see it for what it is: a new revenue stream.

If this plan works, then it will generate less and less income (as less cars come into manhattan), leaving a _deficit_. Where will the next round of money come from?

I really resent that the city is using the bicyclists as a scapegoat for this one. I also resent the bicycle community that isn't realizing it is being used.

If you want less cars, reduce car lanes.
If you want more bikes, make safe, separated bike lanes.

Bloomberg is playing this as something you can opt out of. You can't. Any successful businessman is going to pass the cost of commuting into the city onto you, the consumer. This is a tax on consumers. Bloomberg was against a tax on people earning more than a million a year, but supports this.

Also, this plan should take into account motorcycles, etc (like London does), but this totally ignores them.

I also resent that they are using fear ("You want your commute to get worse?!?") to gain support from working people.

Stop the smoke screening:
This is not about congestion.
This will not make life better for bicyclists.
Your commute sucks because the MTA is already improperly using all the money it gets... you want to give it more money?

Please, "less" is used for unquantifiable things like traffic, whereas "fewer" is used for quantifiable things like cars.

Anyway, there's no reason to assume traffic will continue to decline after the initial implementation period. Also, the cost to consumers will be negligible. And even though traffic may only be reduced by six percent or so, six percent is better than nothing. The more people get used to riding trains and buses, the better off our society will be.

It's a bad idea, I don't like it at all.

.45 Caliber Politics

So it seems many of you guys think that "Congestion Pricing" is going to reduce traffic and improve public transit. HA HA!! Chumps!

Oh this will definitely help the congestion problem. Businesses will no longer need to come into Manhattan for deliveries! Taxis will no longer need to go below 59th st! At least when they voted on the initial toll for the GWB they made people feel better by saying it was only for one year.

Streber: I'll assume you are serious. Reducing the # of car lanes, ignoring the fact that the idea would go nowhere, would cause more backup - thus not resolving the whole congestion issue.

I completely understand the mayor's outburst last week at critics. Their ideas, mirroring those here, are really just bizarre. It's got to be the worst "backlash" against a proposal I have heard. Even the smokers had better arguments to keep smoking.

CHRISTINE QUINN WAS LIVING IN NJ FOR YEARS

http://oprs.co.monmouth.nj.us/oprs/clerk/clerkhome.aspx?op=basic

AND SHE DIDN'T COME TO NYC EVERY DAY WIT MASS TRANSIT ONLY WIT A CAR SUCH HIPPOCRATIC

The $354 million from the Fed is nothing. Most of the transit projects in the city cost billions. They better vote "no." If the city and state needs revenue, then they should stop dragging their asses and get the WTC finished. That's $3-5 billion yearly in taxes right there.

I'd like some data on what percentage of drivers into lower Manhattan are actually low-income drivers. They seem to be brought up a lot by anti-CP demagogues. Can one of you point me to some data? Anybody?

Meanwhile, here's some data on how congestion pricing has worked for the city of London:
* 30% average drop in congestion
* 37% average increase in traffic speed
* 12% drop in particulate matter and nitrogen oxides
* 20% decrease in fossil fuel consumption and CO2 emissions

Have a nice day.

Noticed you didn't address my first question and again brought up this working class that seems to make up the majority of drivers in your mind.

And how are London traffic patterns different from New York traffic patterns? Does them driving on the left side of the road negate basic economics and traffic flow science?

This is garbage. I guess we know who is not getting re-elected next time.

In the next two decades, automobile polution will decline anyway because of engines using clean fuel sources. Gasoline vehicles will become unwanted and obsolete.

Why should anyone pay a tax to use public streets paid with taxes? It doesn't sound Constitutional.

This is going to be decided in court. Unless Albany steps in to stop it.

you've ruined this city -

as it isnt enough having to circle my block for 30 minutes looking for a parking space thanks to all these shitty new 6 story high rises in what was a two story neighborhood.

now you want to charge me to drive INTO MY OWN CITY - I might consider taking public transportation - even though I first would have to take a bus - just to get to the G train, which doesnt go anywhere - then from there transfer to another train - to get to where I drove today - would take an hour more than it does by car - I might even do that if I valued my time as little as it seems the people who support this plan do - I might do that knowing first hand that the city PISSES away money like you would NEVER believe, but where would I leave my car in the morning - see we have alternate side parking laws and in Greenpoint which has no poltical clout - like say Bourogh Park, Park Slope, etc - street cleaning is FOUR days a week, often at 8am - they actually expect you to sit in your car for an hour and half after the street is cleaned or you get a fine - so I can't not take my car - oh I know get rid of my car, get a bike, get up early and use it take my family around the tri-state area...oh yeah - its greatest city in the world!

are you kidding?! this used to be a nice place to live - but all its value has been capitalized on and sold off right out from the people who lived here and frankly made it what it was that made so many people want to come here..but truthfully now it sucks to live here - I daydream about leaving, somewhere less authoritarian, somewhere you dont have to justify wanting to live a comfortable life - yes even with a car -

and when I go, I'm not telling anyone where so no one can follow me and ruin that place to.

sigh

so now when I leave Manhattan to drive to my job in queens I get to pay for taking my car off the manhattan streets. Too bad there are so few of us no one is gonna care.

Meanwhile, here's some data on how congestion pricing has worked for the city of London, by allowing Motorcycles and Scooters to travel for free:
* 30% average drop in congestion
* 37% average increase in traffic speed
* 12% drop in particulate matter and nitrogen oxides
* 20% decrease in fossil fuel consumption and CO2 emissions

London exempts motorcycles, which is not in the New York City plan.

This plan will only be effective at raising our cost of living.

@ nymichi

Granted I don't know much about the public transportation systems of London or Stockholm but I figure they're in much better shape and more efficient than those here. Additionally, those cities are bike friendly while NYC is most decidedly not. Also a lot of us are just sick of failed promises (2nd av. Subway as another example).

This is such a damn ignorant money-grab it is disgusting.

This is a money grab...but at least we're sticking it to you fuckin' drivers for clogging up Midtown. I'd rather ban cars altogether, but I don't have that power.

This is great. Fewer cars fighting for the same space. More people (rightly) taking mass transit. Money going to MTA for improvements.

in terms of transportation, pricing is the only method that has been proven by research to change people's behavior. congestion negatively impacts the environment, the economy, and our quality of life. the externalities created by each additional driver's trip into the CBD are not even close to paid for by those driver(s). putting a price tag that accurately represents the costs (to the city/public/environment, etc.) of that trip makes an individual consider whether he/she needs to travel at that time, using that mode.

for the casual visitor, he/she may realize that it makes more sense to take the path train in to go see that broadway show. to the company making the food delivery to the wendy's on 14th st, the delivery times may be altered so as to not put another truck on the road during peak hours. the purpose of this plan is not to "screw" people as so many are saying, but the price puts a true value on a person or firm's travel decisions. and for those who decide they still need to drive a vehicle into the cbd during peak hours, then they will be essentially contributing money to transportation funding...so now we're getting something out of that person that can further improve transit, and make it a more attractive option for people.

maybe i'm just an idealist, but it makes perfect sense to me.

There are a lot of people who work nights; people like cooks and waiters, train conductors, nurses/admins in hospitals, second and third shift office workers who deal with companies around the world, etc. A LOT of these people (I have multiple friends and family members in this position) have had to move out of the city due to the increased cost of living and the unbalanced ratio of their yearly raises.

Many of these people have moved into NJ, which by the way isn't all luxury high rises overlooking the NYC skyline. They only moved because it was more affordable to live. NJ Transit sucks like you don't believe - trains stop running around midnight, and so there is no choice but to drive a car back and forth.

It is generally agreed by the people I know in this situation, that they would have no problem with taking mass transit if it was made available to them. Not everyone in NJ, CT, upstate NY, etc. are rich people who are lazy and want to drive their cars.

Lower and middle class essential employees are being driven out of the city due to higher costs of living. Unfair to penalize them unless other options are at least offered. Give them a choice before vilifying them.

I only ever drive into the city now to pick up handicapped relatives. There's not much of an option there!

Lots of good points here. The best incentive would definitely be to upgrade the mass transit system.

Couldn't have said it better than '87 Porsche and MFer.

A lot of people commenting here haven't even read the plan and keep making the same tired arguments. Let me remind you of a few details:

-It's only from 6am to 6pm on weekdays. There is no fee for people who work nights. There is no fee for shopping on weekends or holidays.
-There is no fee for leaving the congestion zone.
-There is only one charge per day. You will not be charged to re-enter the congestion zone on the same day.
-And I think there will be no fee for drivers with handicapped license plates, and a discount for low-income drivers.

In addition, I just don't know why people are saying that Jersey gets off free. They are already paying $8. The disincentive to drive is already in place. This will make it more fair on both sides of the river.

And finally, this is not a tax on your right to enter public space. You can still enter the congestion zone freely. You just can't bring your smog-producing car with you.

Couldn't there can be an increase in taxis if the ones that normally work the outer boroughs and airports start working Manhattan?

yes, I didn't vote for the guy.
he'll be shoving all his policies before he leaves office. and giving them sweetheart deals to his buddies. the poor will get the shaft.

JenChungsBra wrote:

I'M the idealist who thinks it's morally unfair to use price control for public spaces.

It's not a price control for public spaces. You are more than welcome to walk across the street for free anytime you wish in the congestion pricing zone. You are not your car.

The number of people naive enough to think this is reducing any traffic is terrifying.

For all you dummys who really think this money is going into some safe labeled MTA please look up "General Fund". That's where all this money will go.

My God, people will lap up anything anyone tells them if it fulfills some pet peeve.

why do I get the feeling the people who are against this plan are the people who voted for bloomberg twice? now who is lapping what?

for those of you who are bringing up the fact that this will not deter wealthy people from driving their car (usually an oversized suv) into the CBD because money is no object to them - that's precisely the point. we're getting extra money out of these folks for their trips which would then fund mass transit!

and i thank you, ivoryjive, for reminding people of the elements of the proposal which people are overlooking. one of the main pieces is to reduce congestion during PEAK hours, when congestion is a huge problem. and the purpose of this is not only to impact single-occupant vehicles, but also shipping goods on trucks -- many of them are clogging/polluting our roads during peak hours to make deliveries. now firms can decide whether they still need to make that delivery and have more trucks sitting in traffic, as opposed to making that delivery in offpeak hours and avoiding the charge.

it's all about making people rethink both their mode and time of travel. yes, i understand that not everyone has this liberty, but for those that do, the idea is that this will change their behavior...and if it doesn't, at least they'll be paying a charge to offset the externalities of their travel choices.

"It's not a price control for public spaces. You are more than welcome to walk across the street for free anytime you wish in the congestion pricing zone. You are not your car."

Yeah, I'm welcome to walk across the street any time I wish, just so long as Donald Trump's speeding limousine isn't in my way.

It is ABSOLUTELY a price control in the way public spaces are used, designed to get a certain class of people to stop driving. To call it anything else is a blatant lie. It would be better to just ban cars altogether than to create even further social stratification in the place that already has the highest income stratification in the entire country.

And if, as IvoryJive says, only a small percentage of cars will be deterred then let's at least stop calling it a congestion scheme and call it what it really is, a revenue scheme.

BTW, I live in Manhattan and don't look forward to having delivery trucks cruising the streets all night long to avoid the $21 fee. The noise they create during weekdays is bad enough, but if they're going to be tooling around in the evenings it's going to create a lot more noise later in the day when people are home trying to relax and/or sleep.

How about this: Ban ALL private vehicles from the zone during CP hours. Ban taxis from cruising without passengers and create numerous taxi stands in every neighborhood. Jack up the fees for the black Lincoln Town Car services. Make all taxis be dual-stage hybrids no larger than a Toyota Camry. Eliminate those double-decker tour buses. Eliminate those skinny billboard trucks that do nothing but drive around aimlessly advertising stupid crap. Make the north-south avenues at least one lane narrower and give that space back to pedestrians or bikes. ------- TADA! Pedestrian nirvana!

Does anyone with dreams of a pedestrian nirvana consider the impact on the city's economy? How much business is done on foot? This is a CITY, not a damn national park!