March 14, 2008
Don't Tax Rich People, Says Bloomberg
Mayor Bloomberg stood up for rich New Yorkers when he advised against the state raising income taxes on the wealthy. Why? He said, "I think at this point, where we're in competition with other cities around the world for entrepreneurs and the best and the brightest, it's not the time to be raising taxes."
Assembly Democrats suggest raising the tax rate for incomes of $1 million+, which would mean a $1.5 billion in additional revenue. And half of those $1 million+ folks are in the city. Assemblyman and congestion pricing opponent Richard Brodsky thinks the mayor is being hypocritical, "I guess the theory behind all these taxes on the middle class [like congestion pricing] is they can't afford to move to Jersey." However, Bloomberg argues that there's an difference: "the alternative is to take mass transit."
Speaking of the rich, there may be a lot less of them, since the stock market was down almost 200 points today and Bear Stearns may be going kaput.
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These privileged bastards need to try to live on common folk salary for a few months, just to get a sense of how this stuff affects us.
What crap. I'm sorry...what absolute elitist crap. Cry me a frickin' river, billionaire asshole. And people think this guy should be preisdent?
did he say "please"?
Holy S---. I don't even know what to say to this. That speech had to go thru a few people. How could that get to a final draft?!?!?!
"Hi...we appreciate you getting us food, fixing our electricity, and helping us out.
Now leave."
Brodsky is a fucking jackbag pretending that his constituents are middle class. All the middle class people I know who live and work in and around NYC commute by public transit. That includes the ones who live in Jersey, which, contrary to what Brodsky apparently thinks, is not exclusively home to millionaires. He fucking infuriates me. The people who live in his district in Westchester drive to work in Manhattan because they are WEALTHY and can afford two-car garages and $3/gallon gas and parking in Manhattan. Well, good. They've given plenty of money to their local Mercedes-Benz dealer and to OPEC and to the garage owners, now how about sending some money back towards us poor schmucks who take the subway to work and breathe your fucking SUV exhaust every day?
Yeah, that became about congestion pricing rather than about tax rates. Too bad.
Why is it always assumed that rich means privileged? A vast majority of the rich actually earned it. I don't make anywhere near a million but I recognize that increasingly punishing those who earn the most is contrary to our economy's interests. It's not ok to confiscate something someone else earned just to give you an unearned boost. What's the justification? Do rich people consume more public resources? Obviously not or we'd shift to consumption taxes.
In short, these guys are just buying your votes and power over you via their handouts and you eagerly suck it up.
buying our votes like what Bloomberg did.
Tax them all!
In a capitalist system that creates jobs, there are always going to be those richer than us. And it will be on their backs to create jobs to put folks underneath them in the pyramid. Or they wouldn't be considered rich.
New York relies on Wall St. for its economy -- all the artists, chefs, waitors, doormen, small business printshop, retail, even municipal service, relies on the economy that Wall St. provides.
If NY hates Wall St. and is determined to tax it into oblivion, they will move. Goldman Sachs does not need to be in NY. The hedge funds do not need to be in NY. Changin the status quo is a pain and that's why they are here. You tax them more, you change the status quo and they will leave. I'm sure there are shady hedge funds that are in NJ to avoid paying taxes.. but more honest ones will follow.
And this shift is already happening. Wall St. is moving abroad, to London, Bombay, Singapore. They love to have the 100hr working financial analysts there to build their economy. And the banks are content to let them go there, because its cheaper to do business there than in NY.
Wait till Wall St. goes kaput and you still have $4 gas. Will be disneyland for Europeans, and the less rich will still be less rich. Good luck taxing the tourists.
Bloomberg is a douchebag
not a fair system. it should be a flat consumption tax.
yes people hate rich people, so do i. but its still not a fair system.
Oy. The rich get rich on the backs of the poor. This is the status quo that is being argued for. Rich people don't "provide" jobs for poor people. Whenever a chef cooks a meal or a doorman holds open a door the salary he earns is being cut into by someone else who is making a profit off of the labor they provide. There isn't some poor little rich kid there taking a loss on paying them, there's some poor little rich kid taking part of the money that was made from the work they did.
And before anyone bothers to reply by telling me that that's how capitalism works and about the risks people with capital have to take, etc. so they deserve a return on their investments don't bother. Bear Stearns goes kaput and the fed bails them out. Enron rips off its workers and who bails them out?
High profile international corps will always be in Manhattan, hell, they don't even want to be in LIC.
you'll have the back office support in JC but
the CEO will be in Manhattan. and, the City has given plenty of tax breaks for them to stay.
time to pay up you welfare recipients in the corporate world.
Bring back the commuter tax, too.
Bloomberg is not a *douchebag*. He IS very wealthy though and you, it seems, are very bitter. Bloomberg has been a fine mayor and has been behind a lot of positive change in our city. I knew when I went to view the comments here I would see plenty of comements from people like this. Or this "what absolute elitist crap. Cry me a frickin' river, billionaire asshole." Last I checked Bloomberg was worth 11 billion some - do you really think this is about HIM making more money? He's pretty set. Whether you like it or not there are white collar and wealthy class people in this city just as there have been for generations. And like it or not if they weren't here you would probably be worse off.
...listen to realtenu (the 8:37 post), who doesn't sound like a total reactionary knucklehead. New York is increasingly being upstaged by other world cities. I work in finance(not earning anywhere CLOSE to 1mm, mind you) and my offices are leaving NYC/NY. My girlfriend's offices (also financial) moved two years ago.
I'm sure people who make 3 word derisive posts on her don't care or don't think to care, but with every firm the city loses, it loses tax dollars. Even more significant and incalculable than this is the incremental loss of the esteem of being a gobal financial captial - something that New York has traditionally benefited from being and has helped make it the city it is today.
Democratic Assembly members propose to raise income taxes by 12%?!?! Wow that is swinging for the fences!
So far NYC's real estate has been one of the least effected by the economic slowdown... Institute this massive money grab the Democrats are proposing and I'm sure that would change!
Probably make a New Jersey address look more attractive...
BTW... 80% of people with an income >$1m are first generation millionaires. So most earned it.
Bloomberg is out of touch with the middle working class.
All you need to do is read the quotes he has made as a mayor.
bloomberg is a short dicked douchebag.
Gov. Paterson you know what to do.
go move to NJ where the property taxes are even higher. but bring back the commuter tax if you wanna work here.
Let them leave!
Maybe housing will become affordable again.
And BTW with the social reproduction in this country, with the expenses of health care and higher education, with the way public schooling is funded, how dare you say that people with income over $1m earned it?
The idea that the American system is a fair system that rewards the hard work, intelligence, and skill of any individual equally is an illusion and a lie that is perpetrated on the working people to preemptively dissuade them from having a revolution. It's the same thing as kings in the middle ages declaring that God chose the kings and royalty, so it's fair for everyone else to live in a mud hut and work the fields.
Ah, my first comment. Let me try to make it balanced.
Obviously, *some* rich people do bring something to the city - donating to museums, etc, although the same thing could arguably be done through taxes. But saying they "earned" it seems a bit simplistic. Yes, in some way they did. But not necessarily simply by working hard. You can work 55 hours a week as a teacher and not be rich. You can work hard raising three children and not be rich. You can work hard being a politician and not be rich (although I guess that's debatable).
You also have to choose a profession that's likely to make you rich. You have to make the right friends. You have to be in the market or whatever at just the right time, and you have to have some luck. Just because everyone doesn't do this or because Fate doesn't favor them or because they didn't choose the "right" profession doesn't mean they don't work hard, nor should their money be valued less.
Exalting the rich and then finding rationalization for that post hoc is simply another vestige of our simian hero-worship. If you have to instinctually respect them more than other people, at least do it because luck favored them more than others, and not because you admire their greed. The former more likely explains why they're here, and the latter is just smoke and mirrors and does nothing to help society.
I agree with snowman and realtenu.
However, in order to make mass transit a viable alternative, per Mayor Mike's comments, we need serious upgrades to all of it. The subway system is a joke in both functionality and appearance. And the train system in and out of Manhattan (from Long Island, CT and NJ) is a mess (you can blame AMTRAK for much of that but its more than just that).
We have excelled in so many areas - but public transportation has stalled big time.
There's a lot of affordable housing throughout the country. Of course you wouldn't want to live there but for some reason you don't ocnnect the dots. I doubt there's a huge demand for doormen where there are no wealthy people willing to pay for that kind of perk so arguing that rich people get rich off someone like a doorman makes me sad for the average intelligence in this country. Doormen, livery drivers, and hundreds of other types of jobs would not exist without wealth!
It's a concentration of wealth that makes something like NYC different from so many other cities. Encourage the wealthy to move, to pay taxes elsewhere, and you might as well move yourself to some hick town in West Virginia because unemployed doormen won't support the cultural and social programs so many of you are fond of.
An increased income tax gives little incentive for large, profitable corporations to leave New York City wholesale. It may lead some wealthy individuals to leave, but the fact remains that most billionaires are not living in New York City for its generous, regressive income tax.
The American Dream is just that, A Dream.
till the majority gets that, we are still doomed.
That dream is perpetrated by the rich and wealthy and they will use whatever influence they have to keep the poor poor.
at least Pb is still cheap.
BTW... 80% of people with an income >$1m are first generation millionaires. So most earned it.
Only if you consider the work they do to be worth what they "earn". I would counter that trading on the stock market does nothing to create anything of any real worth. It's one thing to use the markets to go public and raise capital. It's quite another to simply trade shares back and forth. Or take CEOs, are they really worth what they earn? If all CEOs had their pay cut in half do you think they would all quit? Unlikely.
I have much more respect for people that actually built something of value like Bloomberg or Bill Gates. Whatever you think of Microsoft and its business practices Gates is rich because he still owns shares in his company, not from some ridiculous pay package he extracted from his cronies on the board.
Take investment banking: Ever wonder how M&A guys get paid? They get a percentage of deal's final value if it goes through and nothing if it doesn't. So where do you think their allegiance lies? With the client or their own pocketbook? So they trot out some fancy Powerpoint presentation about why a deal makes sense even though it is probably based on some projections that they have absolutely no idea will come true or not.
Or take lawyers. On the civil side lawyers have absolutely no incentive to get cases resolved quickly because they get paid by the hour. At large law firms most of the associates do meaningless document reviews and write memos that nobody reads all so the partners can pad the bill which in all likelihood is being paid by a large company that really doesn't care about containing costs because it's either a public company and the managers aren't the owners and they get paid millions as well.
The only way these people "earned" their position is because most of these high paying positions are entrenched and have high barriers to entry. There are only a few big Wall Street firms left and a few top tier law firms. The competition is to get the jobs is real.
"The idea that the American system is a fair system that rewards the hard work, intelligence, and skill of any individual equally is an illusion and a lie that is perpetrated on the working people to preemptively dissuade them from having a revolution. It's the same thing as kings in the middle ages declaring that God chose the kings and royalty, so it's fair for everyone else to live in a mud hut and work the fields."
Hear the bitterness again folks? I'm not rich, not by a long shot, but I do know there is not a nation-wide conspiracy to keep you or I poor. Invent something useful, create some unique and fascinating, get a job that will give you a big paycheck etc.... We all make choices in life (this being a free country and all). You seem to be choosing to complain about how everyone has more than you and why this is surely because of forces beyond your control. Give me a break.
"However, in order to make mass transit a viable alternative, per Mayor Mike's comments, we need serious upgrades to all of it. The subway system is a joke in both functionality and appearance. And the train system in and out of Manhattan (from Long Island, CT and NJ) is a mess (you can blame AMTRAK for much of that but its more than just that)."
I take the subway everyday and it gets the job done okay. That said, it could be A LOT better. There do need to be major investments made in rehabbing and extending the mass transit in nyc and across the country. HOW SHOULD THIS BE FUNDED WHEN THE MTA ALREADY CAN'T KEEP ITSELF SOLVENT??... The government should levy a 2-3 dollar tax on gas, making gas prices 4-6 dollars a gallon. WHAAAT?! yes this has been a long time coming, do you know how much gas costs in Europe? Dirt cheap gasoline is *not* an unalienable right (last time I checked). It fosters an unsustainable, wasteful automobile culture. Ever been to LA? Atlanta? It would suck for everyone who bought an escalade, denali, explorer, etc in the last 2 years but c'est la vie.. and c'est for the greater good, you should have seen it coming.
...so many knuckleheads in the world
No, no, no. I'm sorry...what's being asked of the super rich at this moment in history is a significantly smaller tax burden (by percentage) than they have been asked to bear in decades. Look at the tax rates during the '50s, '60s, '70s, and even '80s before the Reagan administration managed to turn the world of taxation its ear. The rich ALREADY are not paying their share. This is about the rarely mentioned RESPONSIBILITIES of citizenship.
I've heard calls for consumption taxes, but all sales tax is inherently regressive. A federal consumption tax would nullify several effective anti-poverty initiatives such as the EIC. Additionally, they just affect different segments of the society disproportionately. Sure a 10% tax of purchases affects everyone the same by percentage, but the working class and working poor are more greatly affected because they are drawing from a much smaller pool of money. A 10% tax (or whatever theoretical percentage) on consumption constitutes a greater burden for lower income individuals. Additionally, the rich do not consume more than the middle class proportionate to the difference in their holdings, so the burden is still upon working people who are often just purchasing life necessities.
Income taxation needs to be fixed, but its undoing does not constitute a meaningful fix.
"Where we're in competition with other cities around the world for entrepreneurs and the best and the brightest..."
Dubai, Shanghai, and Mumbai attract "the best and the brightest" because they make it easier to emigrate there, while properly investing in the infrastructure to support all these new comers. So, Uncle Moneybags go and tell Homeland Security to streamline the immigration process and get the Feds to pony up the money for a subway tunnel to Staten Island (and them some).
I don't make close to over a million bucks, but what does a rich person pay in income taxes? The highest tax bracket for the marginal income over a few hundred thousands (let's say $300K is the line, I have no idea) is 35% federal. Plus state and NY gets you to almost 50% tax rate.
Do you really believe that the government should take over half of a citizens income? If so, then therein lies the fundamenal disagreement on this board. You believe your lifestyle should be subsidized by those richer than you. I don't.
p.s. instead of whining about stockbrokers compensation, go and offer to do the job for less and bring compensation down then. its a market economy doofus.