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The Daily News put together a map detailing the number of stop-and-frisks on the subway - and the racial breakdown of these stop-and-frisks. As the accompanying article makes clear (as well as interviews with people who have been stopped - 1, 2) how cops can stop anyone , though black and Hispanic riders make up about half of the subway riding population, 88% percent of the people stopped are black or Hispanic. The NYPD told the News, "Subway crime is down, in part, because of stops. Officers make stops based on reasonable suspicion, and the numbers reflect the times, places and circumstances where those observations take place."
However, John Jay College of Criminal Justice's Eugene O'Donnell, who used to be a cop and prosecutor, and the NYCLU's Christopher Dunn argue the unnecessarily stopped black and Hispanic riders may become resentful and unwilling to cooperate with police in the future. O'Donnell says, "Anybody who's stopped and questioned and frisked unnecessarily, that's a big deal in a free society."
The map lists statistics by transit bureau, not by stop. Last year, a study the RAND corporation conducted based on NYPD data showed that all minorities have an equal chance of being stopped and questioned, but blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be stopped, frisked, searched, and arrested.
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i once saw this guy get stopped and when he opened his bag there was a whole bunch of porn and everyone was laughing at him and the cops too. Can you sue for emotional distress? ps. the guy was me.
racial profiling whether black, hispanic, arab, chinese or white is nothing new in this country or the world. insurance companies are the largest racial profilers and no one has an issue with that...
Don't dress like a slob or thug and you won't get stopped.
i think you need to first take off the p.c. cap and put the racial make up of stops in relation to the racial make up of crimes to get a more fair, but less tabloid-y outcome. Unfortunately, I'm sure they look relatively similar.
racial profiling whether black, hispanic, arab, chinese or white is nothing new in this country or the world. insurance companies are the largest racial profilers and no one has an issue with that...
Insurance companies are private enterprises, though I don't agree with the practice. However, with health insurance, African Americans do suffer many diseases at higher rates than whites.
thanks jen for this post.
hey BH, i was stopped at modell's and security looked through my bag and I told them I had porn in there. they wanted to keep it.
appears back then their system sucked, my portable radio set off the gate.
What percentage of subway riders are Black/ Hispanic and white?
I mean if 80% of Subway riders are Hispanic and black does that mean that, statistically, they aren't profiling.
Good question, Frank. I'd be interested in finding that out.
What strikes me the most is the low number of arrests associated. If the arrest rate coming from the stops was a higher (in a random, non-scientific check, I couldn't find one above 10%), it would feel like it was more legitimate and less harassment.
one of the districts in brooklyn has a 16% arrest/summons rate. the ones in the bronx are like 3 and 4%. i don't agree with this practice at all. like o'donnell says, it's not a good look in a free society
FrankMartin, jholtham, in the post, I write that blacks and Hispanics make up 50% of the subway riding population. I am also adding a graphic from the Daily News that further illustrates some more statistics.
this is what happens when the crime rate is low,
idles hands are the devil's workshop.
Jen thanks for the graph, me like colorful pictures more than words.
I don't think I understand this entire discussion. Isn't the reason police were given the right to stop people in the subway was because of the so called war on terror? cops can't just grab random people on the street and search 'em without some probable cause (under 10 percent doesn't bode well for any probable cause argument). have they stopped some terrorist plot by finding a bomb that I haven't heard of? allowing searches on subways wasn't allowed as some general crime lowering tactic.
but that is exactly what everyone was warned of...no one payed attention. this will continue to happen sadly
does anyone have a resource with instructions as to what you can do if they stop you? if this happens to me i want to refuse to be searched. i'm not sure if common refusal practice is appropriate in this situation though...can i refer to a certain case or something?
it is sad...
what's really amazing is that when the law was changed to allow random searches, there was no stipulation that only terror related arrests should be allowed. if no terror related evidence is seized then the whole thing should be treated like a search without warrant, cops keep the contraband but there is no viable prosecution. this would satisfy general security concerns and maintain at least the concept of fundamental rights
seems obvious
it is sad...
what's really amazing is that when the law was changed to allow random searches, there was no stipulation that only terror related arrests should be allowed. if no terror related evidence is seized then the whole thing should be treated like a search without warrant, cops keep the contraband but there is no viable prosecution. this would satisfy general security concerns and maintain at least the concept of fundamental rights
seems obvious
Is it fair to say that the risk of search makes a terrorist less likely to attack the subway? Does it make it harder for them? I guess the answer is maybe. Does the risk of search make it less likely for someone to someone to bring a gun, knife or drugs on the subway? I met a drug dealer who delivers and he always takes cabs because they started the random searches. And he's white. So while I don't feel safer you could argue that one less crime is being committed on the subway.
Security is all about appearance. If the guard at a door or gate looks serious and like he is paying attention then he is a less likely target, even if he is just faking it. That is why so many people in security wear sunglasses. Makes it hard to tell if they are watching you or not.
These laws need sunset components that require law makers to repass them from time to time.
This whole graph is weird. Why put Blacks and Latinos in one group in the pie chart....just so it seems like a bigger group?
This whole graph is weird. Why put Blacks and Latinos in one group in the pie chart....just so it seems like a bigger group?
I work at Columbia-NYP at 168th st.,and the cops are there at least once a week.
I NEVER see them anywhere else, and I take the L from 1st to 8th Ave., and then the A up to 168th.
Usually there are at least 3 of them, sometimes 4, and I find it very hard to believe they are looking for terrorists...
I think it SUCKS that they can (not so randomly) grab anyone and search their belongings. Today was the first time EVER that I saw a white guy get pulled over - maybe because of this report???
Until age, gender and race are proportionately reflected in crime, attempts to eliminate "profiling" will prove counter to the object of decreasing crime.
If all profiling is bad, let's demand that cops start stopping more elderly asian women because I bet they are currently getting a free pass.
where does one see all these elderly asian women on the subway? is this like reagan's welfare queen with a mercedes benz? like he actually saw one, politicians don't even know the price of milk or bread.
proof via flickr, thank you.
"where does one see all these elderly asian women on the subway?"
They're on the roads, causing 3/4th's of the traffic jams in and around the city with their slow driving.
not where I am.
#3: It's simpler than that. Just don't be black or hispanic.
The stop & frisk figures in the NYC subway that the Daily News I-Team reported are not related to the random bag searches . By entering the subway, riders are deemed to have consented to bag searches. The stops and frisks are not voluntary.
The stops are supposed to be for a law enforcement purpose and the frisks are supposed to ensure the safety of the officers. As the bar graph from the I-Team story makes clear, the stops and frisks are not related to any law enforcement purpose. The vast increases in stops of Hispanic and Black people is in no way related to crime rates. Black and Hispanic people (my bet -- male and young, too) are way over-searched while non Hispanic whites are way under-searched as compared to their proportions as subway riders.
Why are black and hispanics stopped and searched in the subway? Simple. Buy a scanner and listen to it. The description of most perps reads either male hispanic or male black last seen going down in the hole. The hole being the subway.
Since most of that hippidy hoppy generation wear similar clothes, it's no wonder they are stopped.
Well, lets crunch the numbers...they reported an average of 75 stop and frisks per day, and the daily subway ridership number is 4.5 million. I can't find the numbers for outstanding warrants by race, but the parolee numbers for nyc are about 7% white and 1.5 percent "other (meaning not white, black or hispanic". Seems that frisking 70 black or hispanic subway riders per day (while outrageous on the surface) is really a drop in the bucket, and consistent with the numbers even for simple parole violations, never mind weapons or drug possession, etc...2.75 million black and hispanic riders use the mta each day and 70 are stopped and searched? They should stop because the success rates are so low, not because it's impacting the communities in any drastic way.
You lost me with your math kerplat. Quote, "but the parolee numbers for nyc are about 7% white and 1.5 percent "other (meaning not white, black or hispanic"." What are the other 91.5%? Martians?
Take my civil rights.....please.
The "fascinating" part to me (and by "fascinating" I mean "nauseating") is that this chart shows the number of stop and frisks haven't done a single thing about crime. Even ignoring for a moment that they are of extremely questionable Constitutionality - they aren't even working. Seriously. People. Look at the figures. Before the stop and frisks were implemented, subway crime was steadily dropping - all the way down to 9%. After stop and frisks? Uh, still 9%. Then...whoah, wait for it...8.5%. Then they doubled the stop and frisks...and crime dropped a whopping 1 point to 7%. And the NYPD says this is effective? Crime was already fucking low!!!!
Sandraday you got it right. You can bet your ass this is just another power that the NYPD wants so that it can bully over people without getting into legal trouble.
I'm going to say, no. It doesn't make the terrorist less likely to attack; it could make it less likely he/she succeeds. That, however, is doubtful in my opinion. The train system is too big, simply.
bottomless: I agree. I do feel some sympathy for cops across the board. In NYC or elswhere it is a pretty hard job. Since 9-11 they have been forced to take on a huge new concern, terrorism. The learning curve for American law enforcement is steep and long.
Say what you want about cops and their leadership, but circumstances have demanded that they add a huge piece of pie to an already full pie. Now they have to wonder if it is a meth lab or anthrax lab. That is a lot to ask for a 20 year vet. We all get hard wired to ideas and attitudes as we grow older.
The phrase "grasping at straws" spirngs to mind when i think about "stop and frisk."
This is just to compensate white New Yorkers for the fact that 90% of the bad guys on Law & Order are white businessmen.
http://wcbstv.com/seenon/shock.video.punch.2.658258.html
Holy crap, I even read the chart wrong. Crime isn't currently at 7% a day. It's at 6 a day. Not percent. Crimes. 6. Crimes. A. Day.
And for this we have to frisk 74 people a day? When frisking 0 is correlated to a staggering 8 crimes a day?! Jesus H. Christ, NYPD is fucking incompetent.
PhonG: The problem is that, contrary to the apparently "common sense" assumption, non-random stops reduce the effectiveness of such a system.
They do so by making the system gameable.
If I am a terrorist (or bank robber, or, or, or), and I know that searches might happen in a venue I needed to be able to get my team through, I'd test it.
If I can't watch the system in action, I can just hang out and see who gets tagged. If I can't do that, I send clean people trough, and see who gets stopped; and what (if any) common features they have in common.
That's the first problem. The second is that, if my "profile" isn't right, then my percentage chance of actually catching someone goes way down.
If I'm doing 100 stops, and they are random, that's one-hundred chances to catch someone. If I'm doing eighty of those on a non-random basis, then I only have 20 chances to catch someone.
The sheer paucity (in relative terms) of searches being conducted points to security theater, more than it does to any real attempt to stop either crime, or an attack.
Which makes us less safe, because it diverts valuable (and limited) resources to pointless searches.