UES Eateries Accused Of Racism For Not Delivering To Harlem
Teen Pulls BB Gun On Cops, Gets Shot In The Face
NY Post Finds One Man Who Sides With Fort Hood Shooter
Brooklyn Drummer Dies After Fall Down Elevator Shaft in Williamsburg
Adding In "Discouraged Workers," Jobless Rate Is 17.5%
News came this past week that surely rocked the cradles of many Park Slope babies: Union Hall is no longer stroller-friendly! Will this be the beginning of a trend where Park Slope parents get booted from their home turf bars?
Last week the Brooklynian message board was abuzz with residents who were surprisingly not split on the issue. One points out that some pubs in the UK have recently limited patrons with kids to two drinks per visit, while many just echoed each other's "babies and bars don't mix" sentiment.
The Gowanus Lounge pointed out the new policy at Union Hall via word of an employee that says the bar is only banning "kids that are old enough to walk," and strollers because of fire codes. OTBKB, a Brooklyn mom, weighed in reminding thirsty parents that Union Hall is a "grown up bar" that many would like to see stay opened (something the new rule will help them do). At least one stroller-pusher is sounding off though (some suggestions: Chuck E Cheese, Park Slope West).
This is all starting to remind us of the Great Stroller Debate of '07 that Barnes & Nobles brought upon Brooklyn.
Pictured: Baby on a Union Hall bocce court, via KelBell's Flickr.
add to stumble upon
add to reddit
tweet this
post to facebook
Bringing children to bars, period, is somewhat questionable. I'm surprised it's even legal.
I started writing about 10 comments here and deleted all of them. I'm a "Stroller Pusher" as Jen calls it, so it's probably best that I don't weigh in on this issue.
I will say this much: I don't understand why people have so much animosity toward people (who go out in public) with kids. Does it hurt you in some way? It's not like secondhand smoke. Are there really ever that many kids at a place that you'd call it a daycare? I would never take my kid to a busy bar at night but I don't understand why having a mid-afternoon drink with the little one should be seen as such a horrible, no good thing.
I guess I just don't get it. But I hope that some of you remember these hateful/snotty thoughts you have now whenever you finally do decide to have kids. I only hope that people are more understanding.
Ok, so I did weigh in a bit. I guess I just don't understand why y'all are so resentful toward those of us with kids.
Now that I think about it a bit more, I guess if it's better for their business, then so be it. And for the record, I haven't ever been to these places, so I couldn't care less. I guess I'm just looking to understand.
But, if the patrons don't want to be around kids then it's the bars right to say kids aren't allowed.
"I don't understand why people have so much animosity toward people (who go out in public) with kids. Does it hurt you in some way? "
The thing is, you DO understand. You're just trying to pretend you don't, in denial, so maybe others won't think it's such a big deal. IT'S A BAR!!!! We don't go to bars to watch and listen to your rugrats. GO TO THE TEA LOUNGE.
I have kids, I leave them at home. When I bring them out, I don't go to bars with them. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
I'm going to go get lit with my 3 year old niece now, oh I better remember the stroller.
I'm with HughGass- people don't want to have to see or deal with kids at bars. Bars are for grownups.
The fact that you don't think it's a big deal pretty much defines the problem. Parents in this generation are only concerned with themselves. They put their needs ahead of their kids and their fellow patrons. Either stay home and do something family oriented with your kid or get a sitter. It's that easy.
These parents sound like the same people that drag eight week old babies on five hour airplane flights. Unless you're taking the kid to an emergency family affair like a funeral that kid does not belong on a plane. I had to endure a screaming infant on my way to Hawaii last year. Seriously, are you that self involved that you can't put off a vacation for a few years until the kid can handle it? Try going on vacation within driving distance. That's what my parents did.
But I hope that some of you remember these hateful/snotty thoughts you have now whenever you finally do decide to have kids.
I will and I'll leave my kid at home when I go to bars. If I'm hateful you're selfish and ignorant.
Most people go to bars to get AWAY from domestic life. If you want to drink with your kids around, invite your friends over to your house and be sociable about it, but don't expect a bar to welcome kids. That's just not right.
Good on Union Hall. It blows my mind that any parent would find it even remotely acceptable to bring their kid(s) to a bar.
I don't go to your kids' daycare center to drink & you don't bring your kids to the bar. It's that simple.
These parents sound like the same people that drag eight week old babies on five hour airplane flights. Unless you're taking the kid to an emergency family affair like a funeral that kid does not belong on a plane. I had to endure a screaming infant on my way to Hawaii last year. Seriously, are you that self involved that you can't put off a vacation for a few years until the kid can handle it? Try going on vacation within driving distance. That's what my parents did.
Not every infant on a plane is there because his/her parents are dragging them on a selfish vacation. Sometimes that infant's relatives live a thousand miles away, and a 3-hour plane trip is a lot faster than a 3-day car trip. Not every parent bringing a baby on a plane is the same selfish parent ruining your Saturday night at Union Hall.
That photo is driving me nuts.
All I want to do is go over there and, with a boot shove, tip that little girl over. Baby face, meet bocce dust.
I need help.
leave your kid at home. get a sitter. no one hates you for having kids, they hate the idea that they have to be shoved in your face every moment of every day. There should be places for just grown ups, no matter how special you think your kid is.
Y'all are some hateful fuckers. You don't know anything about me or my family. Ease up from the name calling. I am not selfish. I was/am truly trying to understand.
However...
I haven't ever been to the aforementioned place(s). Perhaps it's a lot more "bar" than I would have guessed. In which case, no, I wouldn't take my kid to it.
Yeah, I followed that link ("At least one stroller-pusher is still complaining") and didn't quite hear the complaining. Having a blanket rule about this is asinine. I don't have a beef with Union Hall making this their policy, but as far as all bars goes, that should be up to the bar owners I think. Bars aint just bars anymore. Union Hall has boccie courts and bookshelves.
That said, I do believe that EastRiver should just shut the fuck up. An eight-week-old baby doesn't belong on a plane? So people with babies should just stay indoors until their kids are fifteen? Good luck banning chatty kathies, alcoholics and overweight men who are taking up half your seat on planes too. Buy some fucking ear plugs or take the boat.
I will say this much: I don't understand why people have so much animosity toward people (who go out in public) with kids.
Because people take their kids out and then their kids whine and scream and parents don't stop them.
If I acted like people in NYC let their kids act, making a spectacle of myself in the restaurant and being a nuisance to other people, there would have been consequences.
You have tuned out the sound of your kid screaming. We have not. We don't want to hear your kid screaming. We don't want to see your kid running around the restaurant and running under tables. Most people here would likely have no problem with kids being anywhere if their parents acted like parents and made their kids behave themselves.
Unless the kid is screaming his head off, what's the problem? I see kids in bars all the time, and now that smoking's out the window it's not like one is doing any harm by having one in there. If kids are disrupting your drunken groove then drink some more. Kids are not a pathology. They're annoying at times, of course, but the rules for bars should be the same for rules at movie theaters: take brats outside.
I suggest The Lighthouse Tavern on 5th Ave. on the Slope in Brooklyn for a very family friendly atmosphere, whether one has kids or not, i.e. the bartenders swear, people get f'd up, but if you want to bring your kid in and have a few beers feel free. Parents aren't aliens or prisoners.
They're annoying at times, of course, but the rules for bars should be the same for rules at movie theaters: take brats outside.
Which would be perfectly acceptable...... if any parents actually did that.
I am crying tears of joy. Kids don't belong in bars.
I almost lost my mind one day when babies invaded Abilene and frolicked among their smoking parents.
Being a parent means making sacrifices. You don't smoke in front of your children and you don't take them to a bar on a sunny day -- if you want to meet up with your friends and their kids, go their apartment or take them to a park.
Kids should NOT be at bars. Period. Actually, it would be best if kids were banned from the city altogether.
Clearly we all have a very different definition of what a bar is. And until we have a universal definition of a bar, then this discussion is a waste of time.
Then again, 9 times out of ten discussing anything on the Internet tends to be a waste of time.
Call me a b*tch, but I am so tired of parents thinking that just because they chose to have children, everyone else has to smile and be happy that those kids are everywhere-----including places they should not be.
I'm sorry---I don't want to have a drink at a bar while I am cursing left and right to have some parent tap me on my shoulder and ask me to watch my mouth.
I'm sorry---I don't want to be on a plane and hear your kid scream or sing every song he knows.
I'm sorry---I don't want to squeeze around you while I try to shop in a clothing store because you felt the need to have a jeep, i mean massive stroller with you.
And I'm sorry---I don't want to try and enjoy my overly priced bottle of wine and overly priced steak because you think your kid should be in a five star rest.
Call me bitter and call me a b*tch.
Mihow, would you please define a bar so we can all get on the same level here? I define a bar as:
-A place that's main function is to serve alcohol (as opposed to a restaurant with a bar within it)
-A place that you have to be 21+ to get into (i never seen a park slope family with teenagers cozying in for a quick dinner at union hall, sorry.)
-A place that opens after noon and closes at 4.
-A place people go to for the sole purpose of drinking.
I'm not making a value judgment here, but if you were to run into a friend of yours on the street and they asked you what you and the baby had done that day, would you feel comfortable telling them that you two had just left a bar?
Plus, I've never had kids, but I think its pretty safe to assume that they enjoy being around other children. Not many other children in these bars, I'm guessing.
Aren't there places that are a *bit* more appropriate that your friends wouldn't mind going to to meet up for a drink? Is sitting down at a restaurant to have a drink so horrible?
oh, and that link to the "concerned parent letter" contains a sentence which sums up everyone's frustration:
"As for Union Hall we celebrated our son's first birthday there. Yes, it was more of a party for my husband and I celebrating our surviving our first year of parenthood, but it was wonderful to have a place to sit and have friends drop by, see us, and have a drink and some comestibles."
Fuck you. It is the kid's birthday...not a chance for you to pat yourselves on the back for doing something that millions upon millions of people do in this country every year. Let the kid have his day and wait until he's old enough to appreciate your hard work on Mother's and Father's day. Until then, suck it up and quit bringing your kid to a bar to "run around." Give the kid some fresh air!
I'm sure these same whining parents would be the first to complain to the barkeep about the "excessive cursing" or if some drunk accidentally bumps their wailing toddler.
There's a simple rule for this, which is already in effect. You need to be 21 and over to get into a bar, not "21 unless accompanied by an adult." Enforce it.
These folks who have kids but want to seem like they're still "hip and with it" by heading out the local beer hall make me want to pour my Stella on their brat's noggin.
My link didn't work.
ranting about brooklyn parents and bars.
I don't bring my son to bars as defined above, so, you are correct, all my points (if there even were any) are moot. I have brought him to restaurants that serve alcohol, which happen to be the places I used to go to before I had a son. I guess I just didn't frequent bars as defined above. (Well, that's not true. Before I had a baby, I used to visit bars like Daddy's, Union Pool, as well as Barcade and I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing my son to those places. If anything it's too loud for a baby.)
Summation: No, I do not bring my son to bars.
I will back out of this conversation at this point because I had another idea of what we were referring to here. Sorry to intrude. :]
Not every infant on a plane is there because his/her parents are dragging them on a selfish vacation. Sometimes that infant's relatives live a thousand miles away, and a 3-hour plane trip is a lot faster than a 3-day car trip. Not every parent bringing a baby on a plane is the same selfish parent ruining your Saturday night at Union Hall.
I think i addressed that not everyone is going on vacation. Can you read? Maybe the grandparents should be the ones to travel to the newborn. And I don't go to Union Hall so you just look like petty parent that decided to make a personal attack. Great debate skills you have.
That said, I do believe that EastRiver should just shut the fuck up. An eight-week-old baby doesn't belong on a plane? So people with babies should just stay indoors until their kids are fifteen? Good luck banning chatty kathies, alcoholics and overweight men who are taking up half your seat on planes too. Buy some fucking ear plugs or take the boat.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Way to take one comment and wildly extrapolate in an attempt to counter my argument. MC and Buzz Buzzard are the lowest form of internet posters.
I've been to that bar a few times and didn't see a stroller in there once. I can't believe this is the topic of discussion today. ;)
thank god. i was at union hall last week, mid day and there were quite a few kids there. one stood at our sofa and stared at us, while his parents drank next to us. it was beyond annoying. union hall is a bar, an adult place and i'd rather not have to watch both my language and topic of conversation.
thank god. i was at union hall last week, mid day and there were quite a few kids there. one stood at our sofa and stared at us, while his parents drank next to us. it was beyond annoying. union hall is a bar, an adult place and i'd rather not have to watch both my language and topic of conversation.
Jeez, We went through this like two years ago.
It's the PARENTS (just like the owners of dogs) who are responsible for their charges.
My little guys (10 yo twins) peruse menus, order politely, say please and thank you, converse quietly, and BEHAVE. They've been doing it for years. Including Paris, Rome, Naples, Brooklyn, Coney Island, Croatia, Mexico, Florence, etc.
I'M in charge of my kids. If they can't comport themselves properly, THEY ARE OUTTA THERE! Never hadda do it. Why? CAUSE I'M their parent and not some entitled d-ck who thinks their kid can inconvenience the world so the're not "stifled".
I'd rather play Buckhunter with my daughter or discuss the primaries with my son than interact with most of the people I meet in our travels.
For those of you advocating "banning" of all children from establishments, please attach your certificate of neutering (same as I have to do on my dog's license) before making blanket statements.
And making such blanket statements, I believe, also reflects your upbringing and your parents' parenting.
Dadoc
Aren't there family-friendly restaurants where you can take the kids and still get a drink?
Why do you need to drink alcohol so badly when you have your children with you?
Aren't there family-friendly restaurants where you can take the kids and still get a drink?
Why do you need to drink alcohol so badly when you have your children with you?
Dadoc is right, my 2 year old sat thgough a 3 hour dinner saturday night. And he can do it all the time. No yelling etc.. You gotta teach them to behave and that can happen very early.
As for Bars, in NY kids under 21 are not allowed at the bar, but are allowed in the bar. That goes for bars everywhere, hotels etc..
Now I take my kids (7 and 2) to a bar all the time and sit and eat a meal, in this case it is an Irish Pub and it is usually brunch. But going out and getting a drink on? I have two kids and taking them to a bar is the last thing I want to do. They get bored and that ruins it for you and maybe others. Get a sitter or call Bill. One exception is when on vacation, but again I can't get my drink on and then get up at 7am. Little monsters are morning people. UGH!
Is this really that big a deal on brooklyn. And Kim77 I love it. you should have started yelling, "You lookin at me?" and "why you all up in my grill." like some crazy drunk.
Bravo!
"Hey look, mister - we serve hard drinks in here for men who want to get drunk fast, and we don't need any characters around to give the joint "atmosphere"."
- Nick, Its A Wonderful Life'
If you take your kid to a bar..any bar, you're a fucking degenerate and you deserve to be called on it.
Do what all the socially well adjusted degenerates do and drink at home while lamenting the fact that you're not numero uno in your own life anymore.
This never would have been an issue pre-smoking ban.
It's actually quite common for parents to take their kids to pubs in the UK. However, if you just want to get your drink on, isn't is more economical to drink at home?
whatever, bring your babies. but i'm getting them drunk when you're not looking! muahahahaha
This is a debate? Parents: Bars are for grownups. Go have a drink at your favorite family friendly restaurant if you really have the urge for a swig of alcohol...in the middle of the day...while being in charge of your children's safety...
You chose fruit, you live with fruit.
While I'm all for banning kids from bars, and strollers from the subway (especially during rush hour), and hate kids and their overdoting parents as much as anyone, I don't have a problem with kids on planes or at restaurants as long as they are well-behaved.
When your kid acts like a monster, don't ignore it. Deal with it. If you can't bring things under control immediately, leave the movie/restaurant, whatever. If you are flying with a kid and it acts up, at least show everyone else you are making an effort. Don't ignore it or act like it's cute.
I don't understand why anyone would bring a child into a bar. Or why anyone would think it's ok to bring a child into a bar. What's next for you, bringing a toddler to a club on a Friday night? Hey, if you can't get a sitter, it's everyone else's problem, right?
Fuck off.
If you need to have a drink when your kids are around...and after observing how many kids are today, I can see why you would...go to TGI Fridays.
That's exactly the kind of trashy place you belong.
Hell, you can even get a free dessert for your kid by saying it's his birthday.
and dadoc,
good for you for understanding what discipline means.
you and my parents would get along.
parents would think twice if there was still SMOKING allowed in these bars...i hope...this babies in bars seems to be a nyc phenomenon...only for the regulars
Of course children should be in bars. What are airplane bottles for? Duh, people.
This whole "kids don't belong in bars" is part of the weird mentality in this country that says children should be shielded from alcohol until they're 21. With the no smoking laws, I don't see any safety reason to exclude kids from a bar. Drinking happens. People like to drink. Why act like it doesn't exist? If most of the patrons don't want children there, and the proprietors agree, that's fine. And obviously if the kid is being a disturbance, the parents should (quickly!) finish up and leave, and they shouldn't be asking anyone to watch their language.
In the interest of full disclosure, it wasn't uncommon for my dad to bring me to the bar. And I don't have kids.
Politburo, I agree, america needs to demystify booze. I was born in the UK and then moved here. Drinks were always part of family meals at home and out. I would get a shandy, (beer and 7-up) from like 13-14 on. When I got to cellege all these kids from uptight boarding schools or homes just went crazy, while I went almost crazy.
I am not joking when I say of 32 people in my fraternity pledge class only 8 graduated in 4 years. Booze and drugs took the rest. So next time you see a kid in a bar buy him a drink. See how the parents feel then. And if some shit filled diaper is checking out you girl you should call out his dad. "Is your boy trying to pick up on my girl?"
it's not about shielding kids from alcohol. it's about sheilding ubar patrons from your stupid brats.
Some of you say reasonable things, even if a subset play to an extreme for effect. Most babies get taken outside when they cry. Most toddlers do behave in public or get removed. As they should. Bars are social places, and you don't stop wanting to be social in a comfortable setting just because you have children. Likewise, social places shouldn't have their vibe broken by sustained outbursts. There are definitely assholes out there who also happen to be parents. Just like, clearly, there are assholes who happen not to be parents. If you emotionally feel the issue is about children, you're misdirecting your attentions.
The rest of you - grab a hold of some perspective, use two hands and pucker up. This topic should not rule your lives. The vitriol spewed speaks volumes. Talk about a book whose NYT review you haven't read yet. Go out and earn some self-respect, and the respect of others. Then maybe someone will care that you need another prescription antidepressant because yet one more crying child has had the gall to remind you of mortality or an unhappy childhood.
Oh right...you're still children yourselves. It makes sense now. No worries, you can still get into the bar. You just can't sit at it.
Jesus. Your mother would be embarrassed for how you behave when you think it doesn't matter.
I wouldn't take my well-behaved two-year-old to any bar. In fact, I used to hang out at Detour on 13th street back when they had free live jazz every night, but I stopped doing that when the owner brought his kid to the place. It just ruined the whole vibe.
When I lived in small towns in the 70s and 80s, it was actually normal for kids to be in bars (until a reasonable hour). However, everyones' parents didn't expect other patrons to clean up any behavior, but they all knew one another anyway and probably had brought their own children in as well.
In theory this doesn't bother me, but it doesn't work in NYC. First and foremost you DO have to be considerate to the target demographic at the bars, those without kids. Second, parents these days (for the most part) are way more uptight about exposing their kids to "unsavory" elements, and you really CAN'T care if we're at the next table talking about, for instance, blow job techniques.
If a small local bar wants to allow kids, I don't really care as long as I'm not expected to act in a G-rated manner. I can also avoid it.
jaja007 blahblahblah.
your pathetic psychobabble prattle adds nothing. This topic doesn't rule anyone's life, and there is no vitriol being spewed.
Talk about a book whose NYT review you haven't read yet? Go out and earn some self-respect, and the respect of others?
Save the lecture for your offspring, of which, thankfully, I am not one.
I am childless by choice, but certainly not heartless.
As soon as I see a child in a bar, in any any context - running around, sitting down, I do immediately wonder about the parents. I look @ them to see if they looked tipsy and hope that are simply having a drink or two.
If the child IS running around in my vicinity, I get paranoid. I MYSELF start keeping an eye out for it, because I worry that it will hit its head. And you know what, half the time it does! Or it runs smack into someone.
Then the parent suddenly awakens from its' I'm-cool-and-laid-back-and-I-bring-my-kids-to bars persona. The parent will start yelling @ the kid for offending a patron, or running around. I usually find that the parent blows up and says something like: "I asked you three times to stop running around!" Well guess what, that's what kids do - they run around. And when you are sitting w/your friends talking over beer, the kid is just gonna start doing it again as soon as you turn back towards the conversation.
We are not your baby sitters. We're out @ a bar, get it? I don't want kids. And I don't want to feel like I should have to watch YOURS -and for free- when I'm out at a BAR.
Kids love to run around - @ the playground with other kids. Taking them to YOUR grown-up playground and talking w/your friends bores them to tears, get it?
I do baby sit on occasion for friends. If I were to kick back and have a beer or two while babysitting - they would look @ me funny. They would wonder why I felt the need to drink @ that moment. They would search my face to see if I was drunk. They would look @ me the way I look @ all you of totting your tots to bars - suspiciously.
Most of these commenters know nothing about the issue here. Most of the mothers who take their children here are taking babies, during the day, when the place is empty. These women have a glass of wine/beer or two and chat. If you think that everyone who goes to a bar is an alcoholic or only goes to get drunk, then you either need to find some nicer bars, or find some counseling.
But it is all moot anyway, most of the young/childless aren't crazy about kids, and most parents can't see past them. But because many of these complainers will eventually have children of their own and there will be a whole new group of "young folks" who will hate their kids, and they will be writing this comment.
i'm the first to admit, i have quite the potty mouth. things get competitive during bocce league play on weekend afternoons and my teammates and i have been known to let loose with an expletive or two. in the last few weeks i’m sure we have permanently traumatized some little ones with our language, not noticing them standing nearby.
i’ve noticed not only more and more parents bringing their infants/toddlers to union hall on weekends, but also throwing children’s parties and baby showers there! by no means do i think parents should be confined to their homes for choosing to have children, they deserve to go out and have fun too. but its not like i’m going to chuck e. cheese to play skee-ball, I’m going to a bar to play bocce and drink alcoholic beverages. when i'm out having fun at a bar i shouldn’t feel like i need to be on my best behavior, lest i be scolded by one of the parents for swearing in front of their child.
Hey, Any parent who thinks the only "potty-mouth" talk comes from the outside world has never listened to themselves @ home and/or watched "A Christmas Story". They have also never listened (like my kids) when I watch a State of the Union Address or CNN covering the cands (both parties). My kids know "words are words". Words are part of the real world. If They can't take the language, have them live their lives wearing Bose noise-cancelling headphones. There is NO WAY any f'ing parent should crit an adult in a ETOH-serving place-of-business for language. Besides, where else are the kids gonna learn it? I strongly suggest to parents Youtubing G Carlin's seven words, let them get over it, let 'em know the appropriate sits (FOR ADULTS), teach them alternate vocab, & GET ON WITH IT! It's not like the guy blasting "Oh, F-ck" is going to ruin your kids lives. My kids would say, "Bad toss!".
Dadoc
A daycare is a place where you leave your kids, not a place where you hang out with your kids. A place where you hang out with your kids is called a drop-in center, and the only one I know of is at Beth Elohim.
More drop-in centers, please! Obviously, they are needed. No one should be exiled to Chuck E. Cheese, it's a nightmare both expensive and commercial. Mothers and their children need a place to go in winter besides Teas Lounge and Barnes and Noble. Someone bring back Landmark.