Gothamist: A Bigger Brooklyn Building From Bruce Ratner

orange55

Fri, 09 May 2008 12:23:58 -0500

am i the only one in the city who hates the name 'miss brooklyn,' or 'miss jenga' (the new title for the proposed smaller bldg to replace the giant monstrosity)? the name is really 1950s sexist bullsh*t. how about the name 'miss thing' - much more appropriate.

liulide

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0500

@ imaginary, this IS fun...you make good points. allow me to retort to the extent i can: identity: brooklyn may not need a sports team to have an identity, but it's definitely nice to have something that brooklyn can call its own and serve as common ground for all brooklynites. don't think your analogy of the yankees/bron is apt, considering it's the NEW YORK yankees with large fan bases in westchester and nj. the BROOKLYN nets is another story. but maybe i'm too wrapped up in the romanticism of the dodgers. accessibility: whenever two giant thoroughfares cross you're bound to have problems, like when broadway crosses any ave in manhattan. i'm not sure how much it can be attributed to the poor land management of the mall. but you know what else is inaccessible? a giant abandoned railyard. nothing needs to be said of ratner's track record, but AY should also be judged on its own merits and I personally think the site plan serves the area ok, and at least better than what we have now, ie nothing. i'm all for non-corporate, bohemian neighborhoods chockful of artists and still the lament the loss of east village. but developement is just a symptom. the real problem is the amount of money flooding the city. stopping a development won't solve that. and really, i'm not even sure that's a problem. i mean, yes, manhattan was a center for artists in the 80s, and it was great when your friend tells you about this band called the ramones playing at cbgb. but it wasn't so great when your first thought was "isn't the bowery kinda of an iffy neightborhood?" remember the crack addicts that hung around st. marks hotel? i'm also all for mom and pop shops (i never go to starbucks but will go to duane reade because all drug stores look the same to me), but that type of development is unrealistic when a large piece of land have to be brought up at once like AY, because there's a huge swath that's basically uninhabited. say you're a pioneer and open a store at atlantic & 6th surrounded by rusting railcars. don't imagine you'll do too well. ultimately AY strikes me as very similar to WTC when it started: "eminent domain abuse!" "ugly buildings!" "too much space!" but then i could be wrong, it could be another Penn station. i doubt it though.

reynoldswrap

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:36:29 -0500

Liulide: I have nothing against development in Brooklyn. In fact, I was initially in favor of bringing the Nets to Brooklyn. You don't have to be against development to be against the Ratner AY project. I'm all for development that is responsible and responsive to public input. To date, there has been very little opportunity for public input even as the government attempts to use emininent domain to revoke property rights! Many people don't realize that Ratner's AY project is not just the arena itself but 16 towering buildings that will essentially create a wall between the neighborhoods of Fort Greene and Park Slope/Prospect heights. I lived for a few years in the shadow of Ratner's Metro Tech center and the buildings all faced inward- away from the community. In fact, even though I lived a block away, I didn't even know that there was a public space in Metro Tech for an entire year. Ratner's project will also most definitely bring car congestion. Nets fans are from New Jersey! Also, Shea and Yankee stadiums are not car-free, why should this stadium be an exception? Not to mention all the people living in the new condos in those 16 buildings. I can't believe that a percentage of these folks won't have cars. Besides, they may need cars if the subway system doesn't improve to support the thousands of extra riders - especially during the already crowded morning and evening rush. This is not a romantic arguement about what's most fashionable: Brooklyn having a new "identity" with the Nets stadium vs. "the brownstowners", but a realistic arguement about how we as citizens would like to shape our community. We could have a development that interstitches our neighborhoods, creates at least a semblance of affordable housing and embraces all of the thriving small business and industries in our borough or we could have what Ratner is offering. And, if we look at Ratner's previous record in Brooklyn - Metrotech, Atlantic Terminal Mall, it is quite clear that this new project will bring more of the same: inaffordable housing to most who currently live in the existing neighborhoods, more chain and box stores and a sense of discontinuity between the project and the surrounding communities.

imaginary

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:51:23 -0500

If an independent store is already doing well in a specific site, the chances of a chain store coming in are slimmer. Projects like the AY make it near impossible at the outset for independent stores to even get a toehold. It won't stop the progress, but I do think it will slow it down. There's bound to be a fall-out to this chain store saturation. The people that are opening these stores seem to be doing so blindly. How many Chases are there on the same stretch of Court Street? Remember that Gothamist post about 2 CVS stores side by side? I don't mind a chain store if it suits the need of a community.

JMH

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:43:38 -0500

Chain stores: YES! Stopping developments like these will send a message and stop the over-development of chain stores.Sorry, I don't buy it. The oversaturation of chain stores is already ongoing, and it's going to continue unfortunately. Starbucks and Duane Reade and Chase have the money to push out small businesses, Atlantic Yards or no.

imaginary

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:24:03 -0500

@ liulide.... OK, this is fun...my counterpoints: Identity: Does Brooklyn need a stadium or a sports team to have an idenitiy? Really? How about having the identity of a melting pot of cultures that actually get along harmoniously side by side. Does Yankee Stadium give the Bronx an identity? Yes....but what has it really done for the South Bronx? Are those residents any better off? Is their neighborhood clean and safe? Where are all the tourists and visitors to the area in the off-season? Accessibility: Do you know why that area is already such an inacessable mess? The Atlantic Center. Do you know who built that? Forest City Ratner. So...we're going to give him carte-blanch because he's already blighted the area? How about Metro-Tech...what a lovely place once you get behind the walls insulating it from the neigborhood its supposed to serve. Thanks again, Bruce! Brooklyn vs Manhattan: True, there's nothing saying Brooklyn shouldnt be like Manhattan. But there's been a mass exodus from Manhattan to Brooklyn because Manhattan is basically unlivable anymore....unless you make $1M a year. Manhattan was once known as the creative arts center of this country...now, many would say that title belongs to Brooklyn. Do we want to lose that honor? We want millionaires, not artists? Traffic: Who needs cars? Well, where are the bus lanes, what about deliviries to local businesses, what about families with 3 kids that need to have a car in the city. You can raise a family in Brooklyn, you can have a car and drive your kids to school. You can't do that in Manhattan...and thats why the families are in Brooklyn now. Do we want to chase them away as well as the artists? Chain stores: YES! Stopping developments like these will send a message and stop the over-development of chain stores. Does an independently owned operation stand a chance within the new Atlantic Yards center? Of course not, but if we allow that area to develop more organically, these small business can afford to come in and bring some character to the neighborhood. Maybe not the best example, but look at Smith Street or 5th Avenue...there's so many small businesses doing very well in those areas, and its only blocks away from the AY site. What if the Atlantic Yards went up in those areas 5 years ago. What a tragedy that would have been. I'm not anti-development. I just want the development to be done with a conscience and have some real community involvement. Having a basketball stadium is great, I understand that positivity of that...but if thats what the community really wants, lets make sure it fits in with the community, and doesn't overcomes it. Do the people of Brooklyn really want 16 skyscrapers in their backyard? Do they want luxury housing? I don't know....but I'd venture to guess the answer is no.

Toby von Meistersinger

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:32:40 -0500

The Ratner Atlantic Yards and this garbage are aimed at killing the soul of Brooklyn while these obscenely rich real estate scammers get even more rich. You have to give credit to Ratner for using the smokescreen of an arena for his Atlantic Yards scheme. It was a stroke of evil genius. There is no reason for the Nets to play in Brooklyn, especially when there is a brand spanking new arena in Newark - one that may actually do some good for that city providing needed jobs, unlike the Ratner scheme which is designed to provide Ratner with more money. Can he please be sent back to Cleveland forever?

liulide

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:26:38 -0500

@ imaginary, thanks for the no-flame reply. the eminent domain issue is confusing to me at best, though i'm sure there were plenty shadiness going on between the developers and the politicians. but, that's the way things are done around here, ex. WTC vs. radio row in the 70s. Is there anyone today who can claim that was a bad thing for ny? ultimately, I think AY is a benefits-outweighing-harms situation. The Nets will give brooklyn an identity it has not had since '57, and the fashionable gehry-bashing notwithstanding, i think it's a pretty cool to not have a stadium be an island in a sea of parking spaces. other arguments: preservation of the grid: i don't think affects this much, considering how it's inaccessible to foot traffic right now anyway. it's certainly not like the lower manhattan expressway, so people against AY should stop pretending they're jane jacobs. traffic congestion: meh, what are you doing with a car in nyc anyway? brooklyn isn't like manhattan and shouldn't be: logically fallacious, just because something is doesn't mean it should be. and since when is culture in nyc set in stone? are we still mourning that there're no germans left in lower east side, or more recently no italians in little italy? the brownstoners had a good run. starbucks, duane reade, chase bank: right, cuz preventing this development will stop the march of the chain stores. my friend said it best, to be against development in ny is like to be against immigration in the US. you're basically saying "well, i know it's the way it's always been and it's what made this place so great. but let's stop it now." and did you know o'malley wanted a new dodger stadium at AY but moses shot him down? don't think of this as a development. think of it as a restoration. @ polite new yorker: sigh.

liulide

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:26:17 -0500

matty

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:41:26 -0500

"like Atlanta, where blind submission to careless real estate development has left unreal traffic jams, ugly buildings, and soul-deadening neighborhoods." kind of like new york?

Polite New Yorker

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:22:51 -0500

No one who favors the Atlantic Yards project has the right to call themselves a Brooklynite, or a New Yorker. Anyone who favors this travesty is an ignorant Philistine who should travel to cities like Atlanta, where blind submission to careless real estate development has left unreal traffic jams, ugly buildings, and soul-deadening neighborhoods.

Gregoire

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:50:10 -0500

Brooklyn never wants to become Manhattan, nor should it. The Williamsburgh Savings building is as fair a gauge as any as to what should be an acceptable height in anti-Manhattan. Its age makes it as 'sacred' as anything in Brooklyn.

HughGass

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:14:17 -0500

I'd be more in favor or AY if there wasn't such an abuse of eminent domain.

drewo

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:07:55 -0500

Eminent domain: the government is acting in your best interests. Or are they acting in their own interests and in the interests of developers and those power brokers who have the government in their pockets? When we hand over freedoms like property ownership to the government, under the pretense that the government knows best, this is what we get. A recent piece on Atlantic Yards and eminant domain in the Manhattan Libertarian newspaper Serf City: http://manhattanlp.org/SerfCity/serfcity_vol3_iss2.pdf

imaginary

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:50:52 -0500

liulide.....not challenging, just curious....why are you in favor of the AY project, and what are your thoughts on the political process that got us to this point, specifically eminent domain usage, the selection of Forest City Ratner as the developer, and the level of community involvement in the decision making process.

liulide

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:32:30 -0500

what's with all this hand-wringing over a building taller than the w'burg savings bank? why should anyone care? last time i checked, the savings bank isn't the vatican and this isn't rome. - brooklynite in favor of AY project.

imaginary

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:31:28 -0500

Why aren't more people crying foul over this Atlantic Yards scam? Seriously....Brooklyn is being used by Ratner and a bunch of politicos (I'm looking at you Marty) who are hoping to rake in profits from the apathy of the people they're supposed to represent. Anyone who feels the same way that I do should look into Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn or one of the other community organizatons that are working to prevent this underhanded immoral project from being completed. ...or, if you like skyscrapers, traffic congestion, commercial banks and duane reades on every corner....maybe you should move to midtown instead. I hear its nice there.

MT

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:29:01 -0500

Speaking of fantasy projects, does anyone know what's going on with Calatrava's 80 South Street? When I drive past on the FDR it looks like there is some demolition going on there. Anyone have any idea if it's related? I would love to see that building be built. It's just gorgeous.

Ph

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:24:57 -0500

Yeah, that's really gonna get built.

Chasmlasher

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:17:30 -0500

"An" bigger building?