A Bigger Brooklyn Building From Bruce Ratner

"An" bigger building?

Speaking of fantasy projects, does anyone know what's going on with Calatrava's 80 South Street? When I drive past on the FDR it looks like there is some demolition going on there. Anyone have any idea if it's related? I would love to see that building be built. It's just gorgeous.

what's with all this hand-wringing over a building taller than the w'burg savings bank? why should anyone care? last time i checked, the savings bank isn't the vatican and this isn't rome.

- brooklynite in favor of AY project.

Eminent domain: the government is acting in your best interests. Or are they acting in their own interests and in the interests of developers and those power brokers who have the government in their pockets? When we hand over freedoms like property ownership to the government, under the pretense that the government knows best, this is what we get.

A recent piece on Atlantic Yards and eminant domain in the Manhattan Libertarian newspaper Serf City:
http://manhattanlp.org/SerfCity/serfcity_vol3_iss2.pdf

Brooklyn never wants to become Manhattan, nor should it. The Williamsburgh Savings building is as fair a gauge as any as to what should be an acceptable height in anti-Manhattan. Its age makes it as 'sacred' as anything in Brooklyn.

"like Atlanta, where blind submission to careless real estate development has left unreal traffic jams, ugly buildings, and soul-deadening neighborhoods."

kind of like new york?

@ imaginary,

thanks for the no-flame reply. the eminent domain issue is confusing to me at best, though i'm sure there were plenty shadiness going on between the developers and the politicians. but, that's the way things are done around here, ex. WTC vs. radio row in the 70s. Is there anyone today who can claim that was a bad thing for ny?

ultimately, I think AY is a benefits-outweighing-harms situation. The Nets will give brooklyn an identity it has not had since '57, and the fashionable gehry-bashing notwithstanding, i think it's a pretty cool to not have a stadium be an island in a sea of parking spaces. other arguments:

preservation of the grid: i don't think affects this much, considering how it's inaccessible to foot traffic right now anyway. it's certainly not like the lower manhattan expressway, so people against AY should stop pretending they're jane jacobs.

traffic congestion: meh, what are you doing with a car in nyc anyway?

brooklyn isn't like manhattan and shouldn't be: logically fallacious, just because something is doesn't mean it should be. and since when is culture in nyc set in stone? are we still mourning that there're no germans left in lower east side, or more recently no italians in little italy? the brownstoners had a good run.

starbucks, duane reade, chase bank: right, cuz preventing this development will stop the march of the chain stores.

my friend said it best, to be against development in ny is like to be against immigration in the US. you're basically saying "well, i know it's the way it's always been and it's what made this place so great. but let's stop it now." and did you know o'malley wanted a new dodger stadium at AY but moses shot him down? don't think of this as a development. think of it as a restoration.

@ polite new yorker: sigh.

@ liulide....

OK, this is fun...my counterpoints:

Identity: Does Brooklyn need a stadium or a sports team to have an idenitiy? Really? How about having the identity of a melting pot of cultures that actually get along harmoniously side by side. Does Yankee Stadium give the Bronx an identity? Yes....but what has it really done for the South Bronx? Are those residents any better off? Is their neighborhood clean and safe? Where are all the tourists and visitors to the area in the off-season?

Accessibility: Do you know why that area is already such an inacessable mess? The Atlantic Center. Do you know who built that? Forest City Ratner. So...we're going to give him carte-blanch because he's already blighted the area? How about Metro-Tech...what a lovely place once you get behind the walls insulating it from the neigborhood its supposed to serve. Thanks again, Bruce!

Brooklyn vs Manhattan: True, there's nothing saying Brooklyn shouldnt be like Manhattan. But there's been a mass exodus from Manhattan to Brooklyn because Manhattan is basically unlivable anymore....unless you make $1M a year. Manhattan was once known as the creative arts center of this country...now, many would say that title belongs to Brooklyn. Do we want to lose that honor? We want millionaires, not artists?

Traffic: Who needs cars? Well, where are the bus lanes, what about deliviries to local businesses, what about families with 3 kids that need to have a car in the city. You can raise a family in Brooklyn, you can have a car and drive your kids to school. You can't do that in Manhattan...and thats why the families are in Brooklyn now. Do we want to chase them away as well as the artists?

Chain stores: YES! Stopping developments like these will send a message and stop the over-development of chain stores. Does an independently owned operation stand a chance within the new Atlantic Yards center? Of course not, but if we allow that area to develop more organically, these small business can afford to come in and bring some character to the neighborhood. Maybe not the best example, but look at Smith Street or 5th Avenue...there's so many small businesses doing very well in those areas, and its only blocks away from the AY site. What if the Atlantic Yards went up in those areas 5 years ago. What a tragedy that would have been.

I'm not anti-development. I just want the development to be done with a conscience and have some real community involvement. Having a basketball stadium is great, I understand that positivity of that...but if thats what the community really wants, lets make sure it fits in with the community, and doesn't overcomes it. Do the people of Brooklyn really want 16 skyscrapers in their backyard? Do they want luxury housing? I don't know....but I'd venture to guess the answer is no.

If an independent store is already doing well in a specific site, the chances of a chain store coming in are slimmer. Projects like the AY make it near impossible at the outset for independent stores to even get a toehold. It won't stop the progress, but I do think it will slow it down. There's bound to be a fall-out to this chain store saturation. The people that are opening these stores seem to be doing so blindly. How many Chases are there on the same stretch of Court Street? Remember that Gothamist post about 2 CVS stores side by side? I don't mind a chain store if it suits the need of a community.

@ imaginary,

this IS fun...you make good points. allow me to retort to the extent i can:

identity: brooklyn may not need a sports team to have an identity, but it's definitely nice to have something that brooklyn can call its own and serve as common ground for all brooklynites. don't think your analogy of the yankees/bron is apt, considering it's the NEW YORK yankees with large fan bases in westchester and nj. the BROOKLYN nets is another story. but maybe i'm too wrapped up in the romanticism of the dodgers.

accessibility: whenever two giant thoroughfares cross you're bound to have problems, like when broadway crosses any ave in manhattan. i'm not sure how much it can be attributed to the poor land management of the mall. but you know what else is inaccessible? a giant abandoned railyard. nothing needs to be said of ratner's track record, but AY should also be judged on its own merits and I personally think the site plan serves the area ok, and at least better than what we have now, ie nothing.

i'm all for non-corporate, bohemian neighborhoods chockful of artists and still the lament the loss of east village. but developement is just a symptom. the real problem is the amount of money flooding the city. stopping a development won't solve that. and really, i'm not even sure that's a problem. i mean, yes, manhattan was a center for artists in the 80s, and it was great when your friend tells you about this band called the ramones playing at cbgb. but it wasn't so great when your first thought was "isn't the bowery kinda of an iffy neightborhood?" remember the crack addicts that hung around st. marks hotel?

i'm also all for mom and pop shops (i never go to starbucks but will go to duane reade because all drug stores look the same to me), but that type of development is unrealistic when a large piece of land have to be brought up at once like AY, because there's a huge swath that's basically uninhabited. say you're a pioneer and open a store at atlantic & 6th surrounded by rusting railcars. don't imagine you'll do too well.

ultimately AY strikes me as very similar to WTC when it started: "eminent domain abuse!" "ugly buildings!" "too much space!" but then i could be wrong, it could be another Penn station. i doubt it though.