Gotbaum Autopsy Inconclusive, 2nd Autopsy Conducted

this is why I carry my little cheap mp3 player/recorder with me all the time.
that's right, I don't have a cell phone camera.
I do carry my digicam with me though.

you never send anyone off to rehab alone for the check in, her family are a bunch of clowns looking to assuage their guilt and blame anyone they can.

if she was obviously distraught do you think maybe the officers had no idea whether or not she presented a danger - of course they handcuffed her behind her back. air travel sucks bad enough as it is, and security may be a joke but it is a real concern given that tsa has no idea what they may be looking for.

Is anyone but me wondering why she was traveling alone to rehab? Isn't that just a recipe for disaster? Couldn't her husband have accompanied her? It's not fair to the airline to basically put an unstable woman in their care, and then blame them when she misses her flight.

getting drunk on the way to rehab? good start.

The police should not have left her alone.

can anyone say straightjacket?

the police lie like a rug.
don't believe the police. listen to what the witnesses said on last night's Anderson cooper.
AZ will soon stand for AZZ as in we're taking them in the.

Now the truth comes out. So very sad no one cared enough to go with her.

As I stated in a previous blog I had a sneaky feeling it had to include her drinking and missing her flight. I guessed right.

Wow! $42 K a month. That's $1,400 a day! I sure hope their cocktail hour and half price drinks aren't limited to the speed rack brands.

And to think two weeks after they are let out they will back to their old ways.

Having suffered from both depression and anxiety, I know how this poor lady felt. She needed a doctor right away, as this disease without medication makes you act exactly as she did. Been there and done that. It is horrible that we don't recognize that when someone has a mental illness, it is like having a physical one. Would you have handcuffed a heart attack victim or diabetic to a post? Or would you have called a doctor? Shame on all of airport personal for not having the brains to do any thing right. There but for the grace of God, go you.

You guys who don't see wrongdoing don't seem to understand -- it's not that the police are likely to have intentionally hurt her, or even hurt her in struggling with her. It's that the police, in arresting her, have a responsibility for her welfare. If's she sick she shouldn't just be treated as a criminal but as a person who needs help. THat might mean observation, it might mean calling EMS. It doens't mean "she's acting up, treat her like a criminal and nothing more."

The police are supposed to help people. And when they deprive someone of their freedom, they have even more responsibility.

When will we hear from the friend who was supposed to meet her at the Tucson airport? What's HER excuse?

When will we hear from the friend who was supposed to meet her at the Tucson airport? What's HER excuse?

Yeah, that's what I want to know. We've all been one one side or another of an "I flaked" story, but most of those can be atoned for by promising to help someone move.

Reading comments on this story, and other articles referencing Carol Gotbaums death in police custody, I'm appalled at the collective ignorance of most of those who post.
I have been reading comments to blogs and news articles throughout the web, and the ignorance is not limited to your posters.
If this is the state of American citzenry, then the police state that most politicos dream about...is going to be met without any resistance.
My dad told me the communists could never suppress us, we would fight to the death. We value our freedom. That was before Nixon and the takeover of our country by the far right. Far Right...is and alway was and always will be conservative, authoritarian, non-democratic.
This woman was manhandled as observed from the bruises on her body. This was police brutality and when police are given absolute power as they have been post 9/11, this is standard in how they escalate law enforcement.

You know who's really feeling like shit now? The friend who was supposed to meet her at the airport and didn't show. That's the person who should be making apologies

I don't understand why George Bush ignores his alcoholism. Betty Ford did a great public service by facing hers and educating the public on this disease. Some moralists still belive addiction is a moral choice, based on willpower, and not a disease that seems to be generational in DNA. Studies on adopted children show that it is organically based, and families have shown an inherited tendency toward addiction,

George Bush has been alcohol free for years.

If this wasn't a fancy UWS Jew this would never even be news. Who.cares.

i dunno, what's easier, a cup of coffee, a meeting in a basement and a sponsor with some God thrown in or 45,000 dollars, a plane flight and being killed.

not sure.

ENOUGH!!!!

Haven't you people got better things to do with your lives? (Unfortunately, I guess not.)

>>>>

pot calling the kettle black here? I guess you don't fly. Some of us who fly wonder what's next?

There's nothing more to see here. Move along, people.

Sometimes you can't protect a person from herself. Look, the reports about her behavior only grow more outrageous -- she was yelling and stomping and running in the concourse even before authorities showed up, she smashed her phone disturbingly in front of passengers, even though the airline rebooked her she still went berserk and couldn't be calmed, she was ripping off her clothes during this fit, and when authorities did finally tackle her she still fought back kicking and resisting and screaming the whole time. Pure rage. Perhaps intoxication at a solo lunch without her friend there leading her to not hear she was missing the last call for boarding, as reporting. Perhaps not taking her meds that day as her husband reportedly said in his phone conversation to the agent. Her own family admitted in earlier statements that she was emotionally disturbed and they understood the need for police to intervene. Oh this is hardly the massive police brutality scenario that all initial reports first suggested when all anyone knew was that this was a wonderful mother who got just a little upset, nothing more, and wound up dead in a holding cell and there's something more than a horrifying about the way it's apparently okay that this is the way the spin is going to be the whole way out. Oh just let's let people berserk and get rid of all public safety officers because clearly they're in it to kill these people left and right, never is anyone but the state responsible.

"All within the state, nothing outside of the state, nothing against the state."

very difficult for any rational person to associate this with movement towards a police state. really. while there are questions about the information that was made available to the tsa (i.e., were they made aware of her medical condition through conversations with the agents, and if so, did they take the required steps to address the real issue?), leaping to the conclusion that this is the necessary result of a police state is simply silly. there are plenty of other egregious examples that one can cite.

She was arrested. Was she read her Miranda rights? Was she told she could have a lawyer?
It is a police state in every airport, get your head out of the sand.

All of you blaming the victim..do you really think she choked herself to death?

Typical rich folks, looking to blame everyone else but themselves.

Whatever

if she choked herself and got out of them cuffs,
she should tour the country, she'd make more money than houdini.
AZ get ready to take it up the AZZ.
I can't wait. this story is everywhere.
and I'm exercising my legs for my lord of the dance jig. I do that whenever a cop dies or has karma handed to them bitchslap style.

How did you know she was flailing in the jail cell?
even the cops didn't know that.
yeah, and I'm still dancing my michael flatley at radio city jig.....
yep, you got it, my friend. my legs are gonna get all tired, them dogs are barking, woof woof.

No one should ever die in the NY subway system by throwing themselves in front of a train, accidentally or otherwise, either, but that doesn't make the subway system responsible -- though you could argue the system should have protected that person from him/her self from the moment they walked in, or that there should be rails or gates making it impossible for anyone ever to do so, or that trains should be able to stop on a dime to keep from hitting them. And you know what? Though you think such people are monsters it can be traumatic to be the subway driver who killed the person or the person on the scene working for the outfit in question trying to revive someone who's done something tragic, fatal to them.

Who knows what really happened?

NO ONE SHOULD EVER DIE IN POLICE CUSTODY. HEAR HEAR.

And if anyone wants to try to control an outta control EDP without a few bruises, go right ahead. How about the safety of the other travellers? When you lose it, become physically out of control, and need to be controlled, if you do not cooperate, you will be bruised. Also alcoholics tend to be kinda generally bruised anyway.

Dadoc

And, as I believe, the post-mortem was not "inconclusive". The prelim post was witheld pending tox and Wecht's post. The ME's job is to determine the cause (the physical or chemical mechanism) and manner (homicide, suicide, therapeautic misadventure, natural, accidental) of death. There is not (that I've seen) any official post report. I would advise either revising the first line of this article, clarifying or providing a link to the official "inconclusive" report.
On such a touchy issue, with such strong feelins amongst the many, I would advise accuracy and close attention to detail rather than vague uncited statements.

Dadoc

According to some reports, the initial autopsy was inconclusive and it could takes weeks before more details are known.

Phoenix police department claim they have a video of the arrest. I don't know why it is not being released, unless they are editing it.

It was probably an unintentional death. I have seen it once during an arrest of a person high on pcp, it took numerous officers to subdue and handcuff him. However immediately after handcuffing the person it was realized that something was wrong and this person was transported to the emergency room where he died shortly thereafter. In this case however, witnesses say that the 105 pound woman was brutally tackled to the floor and that she was arrested while one of the officers placed a knee into her back. Carol was then taken into the holding cell where she was either further accosted or simply died of the injuries of her arrest. It would seem that officers then panicked and came up with the story that she then strangled herself, which I think they will come to regret. I question all comments of she was late, unruly, and deserved to die. I frankly think the posters are self-serving. Police officers are paid your money to think clearly and act rationally. Arresting a screaming, possibly intoxicated female is an everyday occurrence, and one that does not require excessive force or zeal.

THE FOLLOWING UPDATED INFORMATON WAS PROVIDED BY PHOENIX POLICE INVESTIGATORS AS DETERMINED FROM AT LEAST 15 WITNESS STATEMENTS, 5 OFFICER STATEMENTS, AND OTHER INVESTIGATIVE INFORMATION:

On Friday September 29, 2007 Ms. Gotbaum flew unescorted and alone to Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix Arizona. She was supposed to then fly to Tucson Arizona. Per the airline, Ms. Gotbaum was denied access to that flight in Terminal 4. There was a subsequent verbal altercation at the gate in Concourse B between Ms. Gotbaum and the gate attendant. Ms. Gotbaum became agitated and loud and at some point threw her hand held PDA, just missing a citizen, which broke into pieces. Ms. Gotbaum left the gate area.

At approximately 2:49 P.M. Phoenix Police officers working at the airport received a radio call of a woman being loud and disturbing at Concourse B of Terminal 4. The officers responded and located Ms. Gotbaum on the Concourse area. This was a secure area of the airport, an area where everyone had already cleared the TSA security checkpoint. There were a number of witnesses there. Before the officers contacted Ms. Gotbaum, they heard her yelling and observed her actions. They then contacted Ms. Gotbaum and did try to calm her down, but she continued to yell and scream. Within approximately 15 seconds of contacting her, they were joined by a third officer and attempted to arrest her for disorderly conduct by disturbing the peace, a misdemeanor offense. The arrest time was approximately 2:53 P.M.

Ms. Gotbaum did not want to be arrested, and the officers and Ms. Gotbaum ended up on the floor as they tried to handcuff her. No one got hurt and the officers did not use pepper spray or a taser. The officers then picked Ms. Gotbaum up on her feet and two officers then began to escort her to a holding area. Ms. Gotbaum was handcuffed with her hands behind her back, per Phoenix Police Department policy. Ms. Gotbaum was still uncooperative and the officers had to periodically slide her forward with one officer holding each arm in order to get her to the holding area.

At the holding area office in Terminal 4 Ms. Gotbaum was placed in a holding room which is a small room with a solid door and a small window. There were approximately 7 police employees in the holding area office at the time. A female officer came over to do the search. (Incidentally, just the day before, this officer had saved a life at the airport with an AED.) While being searched, Ms. Gotbaum continued to be uncooperative and did not allow herself to be searched. Ms. Gotbaum was then additionally restrained as follows: In the holding room there is a bench with an “eyehook” attached to it. The officers took a “shackle”, which is described as a metal chain, approximately 16” long, with a large “handcuff” on each side. The total length of the chain with handcuffs is approximately 24’’. One of the handcuffs on the “shackle” was attached to the “eyehook” on the bench. The other handcuff of the shackle was attached to the chain of the handcuffs that were already on Ms. Gotbaum’s hands. So Ms. Gotbaum was handcuffed with her hands behind her back, and additionally those handcuffs were attached to a shackle that kept her attached to the bench. At this time, officers felt due to their experience and the actions that had taken place Ms. Gotbaum was not a threat to others or to herself. (Had Ms. Gotbaum been deemed to be a threat to herself, per Phoenix Police policy, she would have been monitored by an officer. As it was, Phoenix Police policy states that prisoners can be alone in holding rooms and checked on once every 15 minutes.) Ms. Gotbaum was simply being loud and uncooperative.

Officers had no information at this time that Ms. Gotbaum had traveled unescorted and alone from New York City to Phoenix, Arizona in order to seek treatment for a substance abuse issue as was later released by others. Again, officers were totally unaware of this information. At that point officers left the holding room and went to the holding office just outside the holding room. Ms. Gotbaum continued to yell and scream. Investigators told me that they have determined definitively that Ms. Gotbaum was alone for 6 to 8 minutes. She continued to be loud. When she stopped the officers went to check on her. Again, this took place in the 6 to 8 minute time frame that Ms. Gotbaum was alone in the holding room.

The officers found Ms. Gotbaum unconscious. Initial information as reported previously indicated that Ms. Gotbaum had somehow worked the handcuffs to the front of her body, probably from under her legs, and had pulled the chain from the shackle across her neck area. Again, the medical examiner will determine the manner and cause of death.

The officers immediately called for the fire department, removed the handcuffs and shackle, and began life saving measures to try to save Ms. Gotbaum. The officers began mouth to mouth resuscitation and CPR. While doing mouth to mouth resuscitation Ms. Gotbaum vomited into one officer’s mouth. The officer spit up himself but continued to do mouth to mouth resuscitation while CPR continued. The officers also attempted to use an AED. Several minutes later the fire department arrived and took over the life saving attempts. These continuous attempts did not work and Ms. Gotbaum was pronounced dead by the fire department personnel at approximately 3:29 P.M.

#78: I guess it's nice to hear what the defendents have to say about why the woman they manhandled died. interesting that they managed to include the bit about her substance abuse problem. No intention to smear the victim in anticipation of criminal proceedings, I'm sure...

The story is more complicated:

GOTBAUM TWIST
WITNESS: SHE MAY HAVE DIED BEFORE CELL
By LORENA MONGELLI and DAVID SCHWARTZ Post Correspondents
October 4, 2007 -- A witness saw cops carrying a "noncombative, not resisting" Carole Anne Gotbaum into a Phoenix airport holding cell and "wondered if she was dead," her family's lawyer said yesterday.
The new account suggests that the daughter-in-law of Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum already was dying, possibly of asphyxia, before she was placed, handcuffed and shackled, in the cell Friday, said the lawyer, Michael Manning.
That version of the events was flatly contradicted by Phoenix cops, who claimed last night in their first detailed narrative of what they say happened that Gotbaum had fought with officers but was not hurt.

(excerpt)
--------

Sometimes the cops overreact and kill someone --sometimes with 41 bullets, sometimes with a stranglehold, sometimes with a knee placed on the back that crushes the ribcage. It happens too frequently and when it happens the people who've done the killing must be held accountable.

They say Carol "Ended up" on the floor. "Ended up" would not be accepted in a police report.

Police brutality at airports is out of control. Especially when the police beat up/kill young women and mothers. This is similar to the police beating of the young woman at Reagan National Airport in DC except she suffered brain damage and is still alive. My thoughts and prayers go out to Carol Ann Gotbaum's family. http://youtube.com/watch?v=XPNmxZwhMag