Rev. John Carmichael, Church of Scientology

Scientology is NOT a religion and this man has no right to call himself "Reverened". In fact, Scientology only started calling itself "church" when the IRS ruled that there were NOT expempt from taxes as a religious organization back in the early '70's. Scientology is a scam and a sham and they fear modern psychology because modern psychology exposes how this cult mind controls people.

A question for Rev. Carmichael:

How do you explain Scientology's use of copyright and intellectual-property law to protect various aspects of its doctrine? As far as I know, no other religion does the same.

#1, scientology mixes worst apects of zealotry with the worst aspects of capitalism. this is self evident in any cursory glance at the behaviors of leading members of scientology et. al.

6 million interesting people living in NYC, and this is who you pick? Give me a break.

Scientology is not a church, and this man has no right to call himself "Reverend". Scientology only started calling itself a "church" and using religious symbols after United States Supreme court ruled that the group was not exempt from taxes in the early '70's. Scientology is a scam and a cult. As time magazine so famously put it "The Cult of Greed".

#6, you are just throwing big words around. what does your comment even mean? that scientology is the best religion ever???

get over yourself.

#1, i'm happy you were saved by scientology's practical take on living a fulfilling life. i'm not sure its for me though.

I prefer fishing!

Seems like a slow day at Gothamist today.

gothamist and their old web advertising trick#221: when in need of web traffic, post imflammatory hot button topics!

#6, you are just throwing big words around. what does your comment even mean? that scientology is the best religion ever???

If you don't know what "capitalism", "zealotry", or "cursory" mean you should probably shut off your computer and take a class in... something.

Unless this is the first of a series, and you follow up with interviews of local priests, rabbis, pastors, imams, ethical culturists, etc., this is an extremely disturbing post. I'm no expert on Scientology, but it seems to already have outsized influence, despite being, essentially, a money-making enterprise masquerading as religion.

I like Beck and all, but if this is a sign that Gothamist is a Scientologist mouthpiece, I'm taking my eyeballs elsewhere.

why does he need a subway, just have xenu zip zip you uptown and back!

I've been reading Gothamist with gusto for years, and this is the first time I was moved to make a comment. What a worthless topic to explore! I am severely disappointed. Let's just hope it really is a slow day there for you guys.

Wow - even more shocked that when I left comment #17 and scrolled up to see this was an entry by JEN! Come on! I'm totally let down.

what is this cake you speak of

This guy looks completely vacant of any sort of fun or intelligence. Way to give this douche free advertising for his shitty cult full of other morons he's managed to trick.

I had a test a month ago on that wacky device they use and I was told I had a Thetan level of 3, whatever the fuck that means.

They can take that E-Meter and shove it up their ass.

The reason she didn't ask any hard questions (unless she is a Scientologist herself) is because they probably wouldn't have agreed to do it otherwise. Plus, Scientology has been doing some big things in New York latelty. I think it's okay for this interview to be posted.

It's too bad they are not open for criticism like any other religion. Makes me wonder how they are positive it's the truth.

the color pink was invented by Tom Cruise.

Terrible choice of interview subject. Religious leaders are, by definition, totally full of shit.

My theory as to why this is here: Wasn't there some post on the stress tests a week or so ago? (maybe two posts, even?) They saw it, complained to Gothamist, and asked for some form of "equal time." Gothamist thinks this is a scoop that will drive traffic and serves up this man's drivel.

Once, for kicks, I called the Scientologist hotline listed in the back of the Village Voice, and simply asked, "What is Scientology?" The guy puts me on hold for five minutes and then came back with an extremely vague spiel about overcoming past traumas to reach your full potential.

#34,
Yeah, right.. scripted interviews is the way to go!!
I dare you to name just one of the 'big' things that Scientology has done in NY lately... come on, just one....

This is a horrible post. Why is it necessary? Scientology is a cult. It is this sort of an attention that they're looking for to promote their worthless ideology. If you have no one worthy to interview, I rather you give us an interview of yourself.

42, that is a terrible statement. i suggest you look inward to find the true source of your frustrations.

#45 are you a chink or something?

"why does he need a subway, just have xenu zip zip you uptown and back!"

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

L. Ron Hubbard is (was) a stupid poo-poo head.
"Churches" started by Philip K Dick or Isaac Asimov would probably have been more interesting. He was a shitty SF writer...

In any case, I find their permitted presence in the subways an annoying offense. What a bunch of pie eyed liars!

Oh...
I forgot to say:
Pseudo-scientific snake-oil clap trap.
But hey, if you want to buy yourself a brainwashing, go right ahead.

Is Jen Carlson the same Jenny that runs all of these pro Scientology blogs? Link:(User Profile:Jenny)If so, I'm not surprised.

"43, i think you are a criminal. and many other scientologists agree with me.

Scientology is a criminal organization, is it not? It's certainly been involved in it's fair share or illegal acitivities, including harrasment, abuse, blackmail and some would even say murder.

Scientology and all its engrams and space aliens make about as much sense as some religion with talking serpents and some carpenter dude risen from the dead.

Seems to me Scientology is the kind of scam the Mafia would come up with if it needed a good cover.

While there certain are many (er, not as many as claimed) Scientologists who are sincere, it is clear that the nutty system L. Ron Hubbard came up should have stayed on the science FICTION side of things.

To the scientologist answering the commentors, I read Gothamist because I trust their point of view to a certain extent. I am not going to pro-Sceintology websites to get "answers" aka propoganda. In fact the propogandist tone of the interview is what most people here are objecting to!

Guest commenter #60,

said "#2, #10 -- Re: Scientology being a religion/church. The IRS did a painstaking and no holds barred investigation into Scientology's financials, leadership and activities in the early 1990s. The IRS's conclusion? Scientology is a bona fide religious and charitable organization that does not inure to the benefit of any one individual or group of individuals." What a bunch of crap.

The Co$ sued the IRS for $128m, filed 2,500 lawsuits against the IRS, and hired P.Is to find out what "crimes" IRS officials were guilty of in their private lives. It's kind of hard to run an investigation when you're forced to also defend yourself. It's just like what your charlatan guru said "always attack, never defend." In the 70s L Ron Hubbard sent his own wife and ten other highly-placed Church executives to infiltrate the IRS and other government office to steal documents that made the "church" look bad. They all were arrested and sent to prison. On July 8, 1977, however, the FBI raided Scientology offices in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., seizing over 48,000 documents. They revealed the extent to which the Church had committed "criminal campaigns of vilification, burglaries and thefts ... against private and public individuals and organizations," Sound like your average nice charitable religious organization? I don't think so.

The IRS was blackmailed into submission. They were forced to give $cientology the same treatment extended to non-profit charitable organizations. Scientology has been granted the same tax exempt status as the Red Cross, does that make the Red Cross a religion?

#66 wrote: "The IRS was blackmailed into submission."

Wow, and not a peep from these allegedly victimized IRS agents since then.

That's quite a stretch.

The fact is, the IRS agents who did the final investigation into Scientology in the 1990s, were given full and unfettered access to everything Scientology. And they concluded what they concluded based on the facts -- not conspiracy theories or pre-conceived notions.

Since the IRS decision in 1993, the Church of Scientology has gotten the support of the U.S. State Department in their Annual Human Rights report ... pointing to the injustice that Scientologists continually experience in Germany when artists and individuals are discriminated against, simply because of their religion.

With regard to your comment on the Red Cross ... it's non-sequitur. If the IRS decision doesn't convince you that Scientology is a bona fide religious and charitable organization, then I suppose very little would.

#66 -- Re: some Church officials going to prison in 1980 for taking illegal actions to try to prove their case.

This is true.

Fortunately, the Church was re-organized in the early 1980s and the Church employees who knew about these illegal actions were dismissed from Church employment. And the reasons for how and why this happened were investigated by the new Church leadership, and steps were taken to ensure that it wouldn't happen again.

It was also recognized by the prosecution, that Hubbard didn't have knowledge or involvement in these illegal activities.

However, as poster #66 shows, some individuals are incapable of letting go of mistakes from now-removed individuals of twenty years ago and try to use this as evidence for wrong-doing today.

- 25-year Scientologist

To: 25-year Scientologist

The same characters appear to slam Scientology whenever there's an article posted on the internet.

"Jerald R" uses various names to make it appear that there are more people writing. Others to do the same.

The American Psychiatric Association has its shills troll the net to spread their attempt to discredit Scientology. Their sole interest is to create discord.

Their message is old, tired and losing credibility as more people are using L Rono Hubbard's technologies, including an increasing number of other religions to provide effective help to their own congregations.

We just bought two additional buildings in Harlem ($10.3 million) and will build a community center where Hubbard's study tech (www.appliedscholastics.org)as well as other ABLE programs (www.ABLE.programs) will be made available to the community.

They whine and complain and it has absoutely no effect. Scientology is everywhere.

James Lightfield

“If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion.” L. Ron Hubbard

I'm sad that Gothamist chose to give space to this cult of jokers. :-(

Scientology is just a scam based on bad science fiction. It would be better to base a religion on Star Trek.
As for taking the word of the Federal Government on something, all I have to say is look at all of the WMDs they found in Iraq and how they told us that the air was safe after 9/11.

#73 -- in order for scientology to work for the individual, that person must accept this premise [that each person is a spiritual being] as fact.

Yes and no. No, because there are many aspects of Scientology that a person can use and find workable, and markedly improve their life -- without having to jump on the Scientology Religion bandwagon. In fact, Scientology's whole effort to package some of these things (Applied Scholastics, Sauna Detox, Narconon, Criminon, et al), are just that -- removing the religious/spiritual aspect of Scientology, and making these tools available for use outside of the formal Church.

And they should be subject to the same level of scientific scrutiny as any other approach. And they are.

But you're right, if someone actually has an interest in looking into Scientology -- the religion -- then that premise that you are a spiritual being will be smack in front of you to evaluate and chew on. And then trying to determine "immortality" -- that really takes a closer look and some study.

But I say, be willing to reject it. Be agnostic about it. Don't take it on anyone's opinion or whim.

With regard to "faith" ... is it "faith" that scientists use when they rely on the "applied philosophy" known as the scientific method to uncover truth in the objective world? It is actually. They have faith that the scientific method works. And this is validly based on years of observation ... both by the individual scientist ... and the results that the scientific method has given us.

And so I say, yes Scientologists do use "faith" in that they are invited to observe whether Scientology works ... in a self-controlled and observable way. Not by simply believing Hubbard or other Scientologists ... but by their own careful observation.

Determining whether "immortality" exists ... yes, you are right. Immortality is a tricky one. But then again, if the very essence of time itself is built into the woof-and-warp of what the "human spirit" is ... as Scientology proposes ... then perhaps it is a subjective question that can in fact be answered by the individual, to his or her own satisfaction.

But I'd say, don't worry about "immortality" just yet ... concentrate on whether "human spirit" even exists in fact.

My suggestion to those studying Scientology -- be "agnostic" in your approach to Scientology. Determine its usefulness and correctness on your own time, in the comfort of your own home.

- 25-year Scientologist

#67: my thoughts exactly. who does this guy talk to?

but my favorite was his comment that "obviously" they do the stress tests because they're "popular." what? you mean they use them to promote their not-particularly-cheap classes? well surely that couldn't be the reason they give the stress tests for free! it's a PUBLIC SERVICE goddamit. they're a religion (as recognized by that great body of theological expertise, the IRS) for god sakes! they would never do anything for any reason other than to help people. i mean come ON who would stoop so low as to scam people in the name of religion.

the 'start a religion to make a million' quote is examined (and fairly conclusively attributed) here:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/scientology/start.a.religion.html

In private, Vonnegut frequently described a trivial bet he made with Hubbard about the latters plan to start a religion.

Why do the stress testers always look like the freaky kids that always got picked on in school?

These scam cults always suck in the sad saps.

Still, if they hadnt found scientology they'd probably be in tall buildings, picking off innocent pedestrians with high-powered rifles..

In response to #81's list of websites, if there are any myths/questions/criticisms that the website:

http://scientologymyths.info

... does not address, feel free to ask them here, and I'll do my best to address them.

- 25-year Scientologist

86 - if you think I'm giving your OSA A$$ my IP address your nuts. Fair Game is still in use. Everyone should google Keith Henson's name. For that matter maybe should google OSA.

Puff piece, underhand lobbed questions, predictable responses.
C'mon guys, are you not educated consumers?
Pandering to the troll interest at best.
#81/83, exactly.
Whole piece obviously tossed out there in its troll simplicity, waiting for the non-religionists, religionists (I prefer the term credophile), invenerate COS responder, angry Jew,
etc. to jump in.
I, myself, prefer Pastafarianism:

www.venganza.org

Dadoc

Re: Googling Keith Henson

Everytime I google "keith henson", I laugh my ass off. The guy harassed Scientologists at their churches (including making bomb threats on-line) a couple years ago; his harassment became so severe that the police issued an arrest warrant on him; instead of facing the charges, he fled the US to Canada; he was eventually caught and now sits in jail.

And of course, it's all Scientology's fault because there's a vast conspiracy between Scientology, the AZ police, the FBI, the Canadian authorities, George Bush and everyone whose first name is John.

Or more likely, Keith sits in jail because of his own foolish actions.

Hubbard was an un-indicted co-conspirator in something called Operation Snow White.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

FBI raids on Scientology properties in 1977 not only turned up documentation of the group's illegal activities against the United States government, but also illegal activities carried out against other perceived enemies of Scientology, such as "Operation Freakout", a conspiracy to frame author Paulette Cooper on false bomb-threat charges, and conspiracies to frame Gabe Cazares, mayor of Clearwater, Florida, on false hit-and-run charges.

The scientology spin doctors are out in force. The truth hurts. To many sworn affidavits and well research biographies about the fraud that was LRH....

#94 -- FBI raids on Scientology properties in 1977 not only turned up documentation ...

And the Nixon-era IRS also had Hubbard and the Church of Scientology on its Enemy's List ... along with John Lennon et al.

What's your point? Shall we accuse all post-1975 US administrations of criminal activity, because of Nixon's wrongdoings in the early 70s?

The Church of Scientology has taken responsibility for it's mistakes from the 1970s and moved on. It's re-organized and is under new leadership. And it openly addresses questions about the Church's mistakes from this period:

http://faq.scientology.org/page31.htm

#96 -- To many sworn affidavits and well research biographies

More like mangled affidavits -- the Aznaran one comes to mind, in which she later went after her lawyer for literally making up whole sections of the affidavit without her permission. And more like horribly researched "biographies" -- Miller's book on Hubbard, for example, had large sections based on Armstrong who famously said "just f*cking allege wrongdoing" when no actual wrong-doing by the Church could be found.

#100- "just f*cking allege wrongdoing"?????

can you site this for me and the others? was it while Armstrong was still in scientology and following the "holy" scriptures of Ron?

One day Jen may get a gig doing interviews for Parade magazine. For now, she should not quit her day job at Highlights for Children. For some raw, unfiltered Scientology truths, check out Ebner's site - http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com

Dude consulted on South Park's Trapped In The Closet episode!

Good news!

Scientology - and its non-Scientology allies -- are cleaning up the psych industry!

For details:
http://www.psychcrime.org

****
Psychotherapists Lawsuits Are On The Rise
A recent issue of The National Law Journal contained an article addressing the rise in psychotherapist’s fear of lawsuits against them.

The article states, “Legal and health care experts say therapists today face a greater risk of being sued than ever before.”

The basis for the rise in civil actions against psychotherapists is the observable fact that so many of them are either plain incompetent or are outright criminals who harm their patients instead of helping them.

Additionally, the number of administrative complaints against therapists has increased significantly in recent years. For instance, the California Board of Behavioral Sciences—which licenses marriage and family therapists and counselors—averages between 600 and 700 complaints a year.

More than 800 corrupt psychiatrists, psychologists and their associates have been found guilty.

****
There are psychiatrists and psychologists who try to help and an increasing number of books by them condemning psychiatric drugs and other damaging "treatments."

"This is going to sound totally different from the status quo here, but I kinda like the Charmichael fellow. What he says sounds interesting and he seems to believe in what he does. I'm actually going to buy Dianetics and read it. My atheist friend says that of anything he has ever read, he thought that that book made the most sense than anything. And the dude is a Molecular Biologist.

I too have talked some smack about these guys in the past, but you know, they actually seem pretty cool. I'm going to at least see what they got!

[99] Posted by: RatherRep411 | August 15, 2007 1:01 AM"

Wow, a fake poster! The guy actually registers to say this?

How does Mr. Hubbard's words translate into the real world?

Read what non-Scientologists (politicians, military, emergency care givers, religious leaders and others) report about the help Scientology has provided:

http://www.volunteerministers.org/results/index.html

A letter[79] Hubbard wrote to his third wife, Mary Sue, when he was in Las Palmas around 1967: "I’m drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys...". The author of an unauthorized Hubbard biography also says that "John McMasters told me that on the flagship Apollo in the late sixties he witnessed Hubbard's drug supply. 'It was the largest drug chest I had ever seen. He had everything!'". This was confirmed by Gerald Armstrong through Virginia Downsborough who said in 1967 he returned to Las Palmas totally debilitated from drugs

L Ron Hubbard=Jim Jones

Thanks Jen. Hope OT2 works out for you.

Lisa McPherson Memorial (died while under care of CoS)
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

Re: Hubbard and drugs ...

#112 says The author of an unauthorized Hubbard biography also says...

This was the poorly researched "biography" by Miller, mentioned earlier in #100 and #103.

#112 goes on ... that "John McMasters told me that on the flagship Apollo in the late sixties he witnessed Hubbard's drug supply. 'It was the largest drug chest I had ever seen. He had everything!'". This was confirmed by Gerald Armstrong ...

And Armstrong was the guy that was caught on video tape saying "just f*cking allege wrongdoing" with regard to accusations made against Scientology. His own actions destroyed his crediblity.

Sadly, Miller based much of his so-called "biography" on statements made by Armstrong and others like him -- even in light of the clear evidence against them. The Aznaran affidavit at http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/Aznaran.htm accurately describes the tactics employed by these folks, when she said in 1994:

"The abusive device most consistently utilized by litigants and counsel adverse to the Church occurs in connection with the filing of declarations or affidavits. It is common knowledge among the stable of disaffected ex-Scientologists who supply such sworn statements that the attorneys dictate the desired content of such testimony with the primary, often sole, purpose of presenting inflammatory accusations that prejudice the Church in the eyes of the court. In such declarations or affidavits, context, the truth, and relevance to the issues in the case are disregarded altogether. As time has passed and this technique has evolved, anti-Church litigants and their counsel have become more and more emboldened in making such declarations and affidavits because the tactic has proven to be so effective in poisoning courts and juries against the Church."

She goes on to even bring up Armstrong:

"The fundamental premise upon which the Church's adversaries and their lawyers operate is the likelihood that courts and juries are willing to believe any allegation made against the Church by a former member, without regard to plausibility, contrary evidence or the true facts. That concept was most succinctly expressed, on videotape, by anti-Scientology litigant, Gerald Armstrong, when he stated that a lack of documents or evidence was no impediment to litigating against the Church when the litigant can 'just allege it'."

And this speaks directly to the ill-quoted statement of Judge Breckenridge (as seen in #113), where he broadly chastised Hubbard and the Church in 1984, based on statements made by these same folks (including Armstrong) who were "emboldened" to "just allege it".

Sadly, there are still those today ... as we can see here in these comments ... who simply ignore these facts. They are apparently steeped in ignorance and/or bitterness, irrationally fuming as they watch Scientology go mainstream -- despite all their efforts to malign it.

Scientologists are criminals, Scientology is cult criminal organization, and the leaders of Scientology deserve to be in jail.

L. Ron. Hubbard was flim flam scam artist and scum bag. In addition. Scientologists are crazy wackos who believe in "thetans" alien spirits and an alien named "Xenu". They are all freaks and Scientology is NOT, I REPEAT NOT a religion, no matter how much they want to claim to be one.

To: #120

You're entitled to your opinion that has absolute no effect on Scientology, Scientologists or the millions who are non-Scientologists now improving their lives by using L Ron Hubbard's workable solutions.

These solutions are availale for anyone to learn and use. See
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org

Update: Philadelphia

The Church of Scientology Philadelphia recently purchased a 15-story office building to meet the growing demands for Scientology as well as to provide needed space for the various social improvement programs: http://www.ABLE.org

Re: Scientology's sauna detox (aka "Purification")

Typical of the over-the-top criticisms of the Scientology-inspired "sauna detox" treatment in use at the NYC Rescue Workers Detox Project, #122 leaves out important details and otherwise seems incapable of separating the efficacy/science of the treatment and the group that inspired it. Let's take up each of #122's points:

#122 -- When sauna treatments are endorsed, they are not referring to FIVE HOUR SESSIONS! Ordinarily, one is strongly advised not to stay in a sauna for longer than about 15-30 minutes. Narconon's clients stay in the sauna for up to five hours ...

The protocol in use by the NY Rescue Worker's Detox Project (and Narconon and Churches of Scientology for that matter) specifically requires participants to take breaks when needed (often every 15-20 mins) over a 2-4 hour period, including the use of cooling showers during those breaks. The programs are done with partners, and the participants' progress are carefully monitored and supervised -- in the NY Rescue Workers Detox Project case, by a medical doctor.

#122 -- ... at temperatures of up to 80C (170F), ten times longer than the recommended maximum.

Temperatures start lower (140F) and, over a period of 30 or so days, are increased, but only if and when the participant is comfortable with it. This, again, is true of the NY Rescue Worker's Detox Project, as well as Narconon and Churches of Scientology.

#122 -- The side effects of such huge overdoses [of niacin] range from liver damage, hair loss, brain swelling and nausea up to fatal heart and respiratory failure.
Sauna and vitamin bombs are two components which make up the Purification Rundown. Both are dangerous on their own. Combine them, along with insistance that rescue workers quit taking medically prescribed drugs, and you have a fine recipe for disaster. Nice way to "treat" your heros, New York!

Whether the NY Rescue Workers Detox Project, Narconon or Scientology, all individuals undergoing the sauna detox treatment are given a thorough physical exam by a qualified medical doctor, who is familiar with the details of the detox program. Any withdrawal from psycho-active medical drugs is only done if the individual is comfortable doing so, and under the careful supervision of a medical doctor. It is done prior to the individual commencing the detox program. All vitamins and nutrients are gradually increased over the 30 day period of the program, and the person is expected to maintain his/her customary diet.

#122 -- Official Scientology documents were recently leaked to the web

Nothing was "leaked". This is just a typical critic's attempt to make it look like the Church was hiding something. This is simply not true. The Church's spiritual use and approach of sauna detox -- what they call the Purification Rundown or Purification Program -- has been broadly stated from its inception in both the book "Clear Body, Clear Mind" and in the various technical references which the Church uses, on which the book is based. Both the book and these references have been publicly available (and in the book's case, broadly disseminated) by the Church for the past 25 years.

More details on the NY Rescue Workers Project can be found at:

http://www.nydetox.org/

More details on the benefits of "sauna detox" and "sauna therapy" can be found by searching on these terms at the National Institute of Health's website:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/

#122 Scientologist will say and DO ANYTHING To denfend their cult, including blackmail and murder so they can keep the money coming in.

Scientologists are pathetic whackos and scam artists into brainwashing and abuse. AND YOU KNOW IT.

#126 and 127

Kinda bothers you, huh? (Laughing)

gothamist readers hates scientology more than al sharpton. who knew?
God bless you al sharpton.

John Carmichael, the only thing that has changed at the Church of Scientology in NYC is that you've gotten older.

"How many Scientologists would you estimate there are in NYC?", you are asked.
Your reply to that question was:
"Difficult to know, as we don't have the same kind of rolls as other Churches -- perhaps 40,000 people have taken services at the Church."

That would come out to approximately 104 new members a month average over a 32 year period. That is a conservative time period estimate, According to the NY State Dept incorporated records, the NYC "Org" on 46th St was only recorded as incorporated in 1997 (after it was forced into recievership) and and the oldest recorded center is the Celebrity Center Mission in 1975.

It's no wonder to me that recently the CoS of NY is now and been sued by for non payment by such conmpanies as Lexis Nexus, of all companies!

"LexisNexis® is a leading provider of comprehensive information and business solutions to professionals in a variety of areas—legal, risk management, corporate, government, law enforcement, accounting and academic.
We provide customers access to 5 billion searchable documents from more than 32,000 legal, news and business sources. Corporations and legal professionals can also manage, organize and integrate their work processes using our unique set of solutions."
http://www.lexisnexis.com/about/

I am curious to know what John Carmichael thinks of David Miscavige's decision to alter Hubbard's written works. I am sure glad I left that group.
We were all so duped.

#132

Typical of data manipulators by those hostile to Scientology.

In an attempt to discredit the number of those who have taken services at the Church of Scientology - New York, 132 wrote: "According to the NY State Dept incorporated records, the NYC "Org" on 46th St was only recorded as incorporated in 1997"

I took my first Scientology course in Feb 1968 when the Church of Scientology was renting space in the Hotel Martinque (1260 Broadway) that is across the street and very close to Macy's /34th Street.

It had previously occupied a smaller space near the West Village, which I had not visited.

wow scientologist haters got pwned

Y'all do realise, don't you, that all the Scientology defense team here has to offer are lies that "sound good."

Like the "medical" exams given prior to the purif.
Narconon often claims to have medical personnel on staff. Strangely enough, they're really hard to find when you add the word "qualified" before medical.

Physical exam or not, that doesn't change the reality that excessive sauna use and toxic doses of vitamins are bad for you.

If you do any research at all on the stuff the cultists throw out that actually IS researchable, you will find that what they're saying isn't necessarily true.

The Internet is Scientology's Vietnam, as Robert Vaughn Young so succinctly put it.

#134, the NY org was first incorporated in 1997. Search here: http://www.dos.state.ny.us/
That was the year it went into receivership to avoid a forced sale of the building.NY org should have been incorporated before that as a separate corp but wasn't. Former missions like the Geltman Mission, were not incorporated either but when Carmichael stated that only 40,000 people have done services in NYC, it would be inclusive of NY org before the incorporation and after, as well as all unincorporated misssions. Stop making yourself look like a fool and do your research before you spout baloney like that. ~ 132

#139 -- Dr. Koop had this to say ...

I don't know what value there is in doing a "battle of the MDs". Koop is certainly entitled to his opinion. It should be noted that Koop's quote pre-dates the broad acceptance and practice of integrative medicine by many MDs and hospitals by a decade, and also pre-dates many of the most telling scientific studies that have been conducted on sauna detox and sauna therapy over the past fifteen years.

By and large, the only folks that vehemently reject and criticize sauna detox are the extremist Scientology critics on the net -- not based on any rational arguments, but simply because of their personal agenda to malign Scientology.

#134

The subject was number of people taking Scientology courses. Scientology in New York has provided services for more than 40 years.

You're just backpeddling as do all your psychiatric industry shills who troll the internet.

#143

850+ firemen, police and emergency responders have completed the Hubbard Sauna Detox program.

When you write "the people I've talked to..."

Let's face it, your hostile so you're as trustworthy a source of information as the liars who are paid by psychiatric front groups to create "affidavits" to discredit Scientology.

Aznaran's affidavit details how people like you are paid to write discrediting "affidavits" against Scientology:

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/Aznaran.htm

UPDATE ... UPDATE ... ISRAEL

We just recently bought a landmark building in Tel Aviv to service the quickly increasing Israeli Scientology community.

#143 -- FDNY Hierarchy Furious With Tom Cruise Over Scientology Detox ... FoxNews

You leave out the author of the article: Roger Friedman. Friedman is the Perez Hilton of FoxNews ... their in-house Hollywood gossip "journalist". Getting an unembellished, gossip-less article from Friedman, by definition, is impossible.

A much more level-headed, and closer to home, independent layman's appraisal of the program by veteran journalist Steve Dunleavy can be found at:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06122007/news/columnists/cruisess_clinic_ok_columnists_steve_dunleavy.htm

Here's a clip.

CRUISES'S CLINIC OK -- DETOX ABOUT HEALING, NOT RELIGION

...
The project is run by Jim Woodworth, reared as a Catholic, the seventh of 14 children born in Northern California and nephew of a monsignor. He is a Scientologist.

No, I haven't converted and haven't got the slightest desire to do so. And I'm not shilling, but considering the amount of flak that the program has taken, a few things have to be said.

I went on a two-hour tour of the project, which looks more like a gym than anything else. Frankly, I was knocked out.

I spoke to firefighters, ironworkers, EMT workers, a lady who works for the Red Cross, a city building inspector, all who were on the pile for too long.

To listen to their stories is to believe, not in Scientology, but the detoxification program, which, yes, was designed by the late Scientology founder, L. Ron Hubbard.

But the word Scientology is never mentioned there, no lobbying.

There is not a single propaganda pamphlet, and those I spoke to say they have never heard the word Scientology mentioned at the project.

...
Said Joe Higgins [a drill instructor at the NY Fire Academy, who worked on the 9/11 pile and completed the program], "Whether it's run by the Scientologists or Mo in the moon, I don't care. I just know I care about my brother firefighters and all those down on the pile, and I'm convinced the programs works."
-------------------

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A00EFD6153CF937A35753C1A9659C8B63

The official in Los Angeles, Linda Simmons Hight, said many Scientologists had donated to the clinic, but ''as far as it being part of the church, it isn't.'' Joseph Higgins, a retired firefighter who is now a paid member of the clinic's advisory board, said Tom Cruise, the actor, had paid for ''quite a bit'' of the treatments for rescue workers, estimated by Mr. Higgins to cost $5,000 to $6,000 apiece.

#147

It goes to show that Scientologists care about the brave men and women who put their lives on the line to help others.

More than 850 firemen, police and other emergency responders have completed the Hubbard Sauna Detox program with life-improving results.

This program is free for these brave and wonderful people.

Another example of Scientolgy's commitment to helping others -- and one that is on a massive international scale:

Scientology has the largest private disaster relief organization in the world, and L Ron Hubbard's methods are now being learned by people of every race and religion from Church of Scientology handbooks. They aren't changing their religious beliefs. What they are doing is learning methods to help others.

Details:
http://www.VolunteerMinisters.org

Scientology handbooks are posted on that site as well as at:

http://www.ScientologyHandbook.org

#149
It goes to show that scientology had to pay one of those firemen to say that they are doing good work.

Is charging someone, I know that scientology tried to get public funds to pay for this too, 5
to 6 thousand dollars for sitting in a sauna and talking some vitamins really helping them?

Scientology front groups both contributed money
to the campaigns of Queen’s councilman Hiram Monserrate and city council President Margarita Lopez, who both tried to get public funding for
this Purification Rundown. Why does scientology
have to bribe people if this program is really so helpful?

#152 -- Wow, then I guess NYC and America are led by a government of bribed leaders!

What does that have to do with scientology buying the influence of Margarita Lopez and Hiram Monserrate?

Bottom line is, the NYC Councilmen and women who continue to support this program, went out of their way to follow the rules that every other government official is required to follow.

I don't understand the relevance of this statement either, it's meaningless.

http://www.nypress.com/20/22/news&columns/feature.cfm
During her 2005 run for Manhattan borough president, it was revealed that Lopez helped steer $630,000 in city funding to Downtown Medical. Following that, she received over $100,000 in campaign contributions from Scientology associates and the scorn of Mayor Bloomberg. The mayor openly chastised Lopez, who appears in a promotional video touting the program, for her connection to Downtown Medical.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/queens/index.html?page=2
Over in a race that I should have been paying more attention to, the State Senate primary between John Sabini and Hiram Monserrate, a reader turned up a rather odd, late contribution to Hiram's campaign:

$2,000 from Citizens for Social Reform, out of Sacramento, CA.

The group, according to its website, "was founded in 2001 by a group of Scientologists and other like-minded individuals concerned with the escalating social ills in society."

They found a program that works, independent science supports it, and the extremist Scientology detractors -- incapable of separating a workable program from their personal emotional attachment to this group -- are the only ones who oppose it

It's funny how they found a program that works that also just happened to donate money to their political campaigns, a coincidence? We're all still waiting for some independant science that
supports scientology's methods, some support from
someone other than scientologists. C Everett Koop
and many other physicians oppose it or call it worthless quackery, are they extremist scientology
detrractors? Shall I repost Koop's comments and add a few more?

Scientologist posters #124, and #141 want use to go look at National Institute of Health website (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/) and research "sauna therapy" and "sauna detox". So I went there and did just that.

All it show is that there have been studies on the health risks and benefits of sauna therapy, however there was not one study that supports Scientology's claims for their purification rundown.

It is also interesting to note, I also ran a search for "Scientology" and on the right hand section of the web page in the "related links" section they offered links to medical quackery. There were also a few interesting search results one about a family who's two year old baby girl contracted scurvy, that's right scurvy, by following Hubbard's recommended baby formula of whole milk, barley, and corn syrup.

So go ahead and go to the National Institute of Health's website (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/) and do a search for "Scientology", and "scientology medical quackery" and see what you find.

Just like poster #141 said, and I agree "You can't get any more "researchable" than the National Institute of Health at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/" The National Institute of Health says that Scientology is quackery and you can't have more definitive proof than that.

#155 Re: Scientology, Hubbard and homosexuality ...

Your quote is from a book from 1950. Thank you for your walk down memory lane.

Independent research into this exact issue was summarized here at a page titled: "The Church of Scientology & homosexuality". http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_scie.htm

And here are a couple of pertinent excerpts from the website:

"It is important to realize that L.R. Hubbard's beliefs matched those of mainstream psychiatry and psychology at the time -- that homosexuals were suffering from a mental illness."

and

"L. Ron Hubbard Alters Position on Gays and Lesbians:

In 1967, perhaps in response to the groundbreaking work of Evelyn Hooker and subsequent researchers into human sexuality, Hubbard wrote:

'It has never been any part of my plans to regulate or to attempt to regulate the private lives of individuals. Whenever this has occurred, it has not resulted in any improved condition....Therefore all former rules, regulations and policies relating to the sexual activities of Scientologists are cancelled.' "

The article also mentions the http://scientologymyths.info website, which takes up this issue.

Amusing. As is typical of the psychiatric industry's mouth pieces who troll the internet, they ALWAYS side step the fact that -- as with the NY Detox Center -- Hubbard's detox program works.

More than 850 NY fireman, police and emergency responders have completed the program -- their lives improved.

Psychiatric revolving door drug rehab programs are known failures and have cost countless billions (taxes and insurance premium).

THAT'S the fact that these people try to mask.

As regards some mouthpieces for the psych and American Medial Association's front groups opposed to Hubbard's breakthough... who cares?

The AMA tried to destroy the chiropractic rofession and totally failed.

The AMA periodically tries (through their front groups and lobbyists) to pass legislation to require prescriptions for vitamins.

Only about 35 percent of all doctors are members of the AMA, which controls the entire profession. The AMA has ALWAYS attacked alternatives.

L Ron Hubbard's breakthroughs are being utilized by an increasing number of people.

... and THAT's what really upsets these detractors.

Sorry (not at all) -- you will never stop Scientology from making available these remarkable effective and workable methods.

With the fast growing support of non-Scientologists who are telling their friends "Hey, you don't have be a Scientologist to benefit from it." Scientology is everywhere and stronger then ever.

#159-What's extremist about disagreeing...

Nothing, except when you finish with ...

they're Scientologist just lying as usual.

It's pretty clear how extreme you are, when you end your argument with an extremist statement.

Anti-Scientology believers appear to exhibit delusional disorder. The Anti-Scientology belief system, penned by irrational opponents of L. Ron Hubbard, has clever constructs to protect and reinforce an Anti-Scientolgist's delusional thinking

Scientology intervention may be useful in challenging an individual Anti-Scientolgist's delusions and might lead to an abandonment of Anti-Scientology. Opponents of Hubbard countered this threat by writing opposition to Scientology into Anti-Scientology's credo.

Anti-Scientology doesn't allow an Anti-Scientologists to use the services of those who might help them. Anti-Scientology is a real case of the lunatics running the asylum.

clarification:

... to help Muslims who have drug / alcohol dependency problems.

When one looks at its magazine, as I did the other day, one sees that the charges are extremely high. An extraordinary array of books and cassettes on the teaching of the new deceased guru Mr L Ron Hubbard is advertised. They range from what is called "the way to happiness extension course" for a mere £25 to "the Philadelphia doctorate course lectures" for no less than £2,500.

Last summer some members of this Assembly were privileged to receive a foretaste of the "way to happiness" teachings of the said Mr Hubbard. They were sent an expensively bound de luxe edition of what was described as

"a very popular non-religious common sense guide".

Unfortunately, one did not come to me, but I have managed to obtain a copy. The sayings of Mr Hubbard are certainly basic. I have extracted just three gems for the debate. The first reads:

"Happiness. True joy and happiness are valuable. If one does not survive, no joy and no happiness are obtainable."

The second reads:

"Eat properly. People who do not eat properly are not of much help to you or themselves. They tend to have a low energy level."

That one really touched my heart. The third one states:

"Preserve your teeth. If one brushed one's teeth after every meal, it has been said that one would not suffer tooth decay."

That is hilarious but, incredibly, people are apparently drawn into that organisation by trite and puerile quotes of that kind. Some will say that if people are naive and foolish enough to be persuaded by that kind of juvenile rubbish, that is their own business. To some extent I go along with that, but at the same time one has always to watch for the motives of these people. Why are they trying to attract young people and others into their ranks? We have a duty to watch and monitor these groups and where necessary - it is not always necessary - to warn parents and young people about the groups' methods and motives.

SOURCE: Council of Europe debate on
Scientology and other cults
Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, 5 Feb 1992

168
Out of date for sure. 1992 -- 15 years old. Well, that's psychiatry and their spokespeople.

They are too blind to realize that in attempting to denegrate a common sense moral guide, they are saying that they have no morals.

Well, that's the psychiatric industry. (Fortunately an increasing number of psychs are getting fed up with the APA's drug pushing agenda.)

Good news! There are fewer people studying to become psychiatrists and more psychs getting convicted of crimes! All thanks to CCHR and its non-Scientology allies. http://www.CCHR.org

We seem to have been side tracked by all bulls*** of the sauna treatment. Can you of the scientologist please comment on how you drove Ms. Duncan to suicide?

Handling truth is a touchy business also. You don't have to tell everything you know - that would jam the comm[unication] line too. Tell an acceptable truth.

Agreement with one's message is what [Public Relations] is seeking to achieve. Thus the message must compare to the personal experience of the audience.

So PR becomes the technique of communicating an acceptable truth - and which will attain the desirable result.

If there's no chance of obtaining a desirable result and the truth would injure then talk about something else.
[Hubbard, HCO Policy Letter of 13 August 1970, "The Missing Ingredient"]

From "The Enemies of Scientology: Recent Press Releases by L. Ron Hubbard", Freedom magazine, issue 1, 1968
"This furore over the world against Scientology is stirred up by small psychiatric controlled groups. It cannot help but result in world-wide demands to investigate the inhuman brutality they use in their institutions. Their 19th century methods must end. They act like the mad scientists in a bad old-time movie. The true medical doctor is ashamed to be associated with them. The psychiatric idea of man is a Godless, soulless piece of meat. They demand their rights to butcher at will. They mock every Christian sentiment. According to them, everyone is helplessly mad and anyone who opposes them is especially so. Yet where are their cures? They only have victims. They torture and kill out of sight in their institutions."

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/purif.htm

Scientology's Risky 'Purification Rundown'As part of the cleansing process, Hubbard also recommended the drinking of large volumes of water and the ingestion of vitamin and mineral supplements. Hubbard called niacin the "educated vitamin" and claimed that "taken in sufficient quantities, niacin appears to break up and unleash LSD, marijuana and other drugs and poisons from the tissues and cells . . .

"I have seen a full-blown case of skin cancer turn on and run out on niacin dosages . . . Other lesser manifestations that may turn on with niacin are hives, flu symptoms, gastroenteritis, aching bones, upset stomach or a fearful or terrified condition." The "purification rundown" recommends niacin dosages starting at 100 milligrams and rising to 5,000 milligrams.

But critics contend that the recommended high dosages were potentially toxic themselves and actually cause some of the ailments that Hubbard claimed were being driven from the body. "By the time you get up to 3,000 milligrams, you have a high incidence of very severe facial flushing," said Michael Glade of the American College of Nutrition. "A lot of people think that means they're purging themselves of some bad stuff. [But it is] an adverse reaction, not a desirable response."

Glade expressed concern, too, about recommended high dosages of other vitamins, particularly the levels of vitamins A and D. The Scientology program recommends a top level of vitamin A at 50,000 IU a day. Yet, according to Glade, vitamin A is toxic starting at 20,000 IU. "People who have been somewhat abusive of drugs or alcohol have enough liver function compromise that 20,000 IU a day for a couple of weeks could be fatal," Glade said.

High dosages of vitamin D also could hurt people over 40, Glade said. "That level of vitamin D [2,000 IU a day] for a couple of weeks will actually accelerate the person's next heart attack or stroke. It will interact with the average wear and tear of the aorta and the cardiac valves to form crystals and create hardening of the arteries."

Another questionable aspect of the rundown is the intake of oils or what the "Church" calls the "Have-Waste Theory." By consuming clean oils or fats, the theory goes, people could replace older fatty tissues, which Hubbard believed contained toxins from drugs. To this end, the "Church" recommends consuming a combination of safflower, soy, walnut and peanut oils.

But medical experts again question the validity of the theory. "If you're intaking the oils while you're doing the exercise regimen, then the oils that you intake will be burned first and the other, older oils will stay in your body," said Glade. "And if you're consuming them while not exercising, that oil will be stored, and it won't make any difference what fat burns when." Science Fiction

The "Church" of Scientology does include some cautionary advice to participants. On its copyright page, Clear Body Clear Mind includes the disclaimer: "The Purification program cannot be construed as a recommendation of medical treatment or medication and it is not professed as a physical handling for bodies nor is any claim made to that effect. There are no medical recommendations or claims for the Purification program or for any of the vitamin or mineral regimens described in this book."

Yet we see all the scientologist(s) posting here
claiming it does have medicinal benefits. Don't you guys think that obfuscation like this tends to raise the general public's eyebrow a little bit?

#178--Yet we see all the scientologist(s) posting here
claiming it does have medicinal benefits. Don't you guys think that obfuscation like this tends to raise the general public's eyebrow a little bit?

No, because it's not obfuscation. As has been noted, prior to each individual's participation in the program, they are required to get a complete physical by a medical doctor who is himself familiar with the details of the program. And based on the results, the doctor decides if a less strenuous version of the protocol is needed or not.

Further, as has been earlier noted, many non-Scientology MDs and NDs (particularly those in the Environmental Health field) use this program in their practices.

They get results with it. Many of these results have been studied and published. The Crinnion paper (and Sherry Roger's book) -- both mentioned earlier -- provide some of the better meta-analyses of these.

By and large, the loudest (if not the most irrelavant) criticism one will come across is not a rational, scientific one -- but simply a personal, emotional response to the originator(s) of the protocol.

#172 -- Can you of the scientologist please comment on how you drove Ms. Duncan to suicide?

I didn't know Theresa or Blake personally, #172, and all I know are the various news articles (and some of the blogosphere) that you've probably read yourself. They sound like an incredibly gifted and intelligent couple, who should never have taken their lives, and who I wish could somehow have been helped before they did.

As a Scientologist for many years, and one who has also looked thoroughly at both sides of the overall Scientology debate, I can tell you with some certainty that Theresa (in particular) appeared to be caught up in the same kind of unfounded conspiracy theories and paranoia that a handful of others on are, to this day, with regard to Scientology. Their fears are based on half-true, false and/or out-of-context information that can be found on the web.

Without knowing them myself, I cannot really say too much more about why and how they became so afraid of Scientology. Theresa seemed to be the most affected. Perhaps, with Blake working with Beck (a Scientologist), Theresa bought into some Scientology conspiracy theory on the net and began imagining things. And while Scientology and Scientologists have done their best to dispell the myths (e.g. http://scientologymyths.info and the "Misconceptions" section of http://faq.scientology.org), there obviously is not much the Church can do when vigilante Scientology detractors are "just alleging wrongdoing" (see #100 and #118 above specifically, and #59 and #70 generally).

While I doubt that these fears/paranoias of Theresa's were the sole cause of their taking their own lives, they do appear to have been part of an overall mental state that she was dealing with. And her loss was just too much for Blake.

And so my answer to your request for comment, is that they died unnecessarily. They died out of ignorance. And they died, in some part, at the hands of those extremists whose goal is to instill further paranoia in those that are already prone to such. In Theresa's and Blake's case, the extremists succeeded.

#182 said:
"I can tell you with some certainty that Theresa (in particular) appeared to be caught up in the same kind of unfounded conspiracy theories and paranoia that a handful of others on are, to this day, with regard to Scientology. Their fears are based on half-true, false and/or out-of-context information that can be found on the web."

So was the conspiracy against Paulette Cooper "unfounded" or "taken out of context"? Scientologist call people who believe this extremist. But is a matter of public record. This isn't speculation - scientology has, does and will harass anyone that does not agree with them. To the point of actually planning to make a person appear insane or framing them for false crimes or driving them to suicide. Scientology's own internal directives and memo back up the facts.

Fair Game and Black PR are "church" doctrine.

http://www.lermanet.com/paulette-cooper/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulette_Cooper
http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/frk1.html (links in page to actually documents written by CoS)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29

#184--So was the conspiracy against Paulette Cooper "unfounded" or "taken out of context"? Scientologist call people who believe this extremist.

I call people who buy into this hook.line.sinker, gullible. Here's why.

Your first source, lermanet.com, is a website from one of the most egregious "just allege it" folks out there. He is so entrenched against Scientology, that I have no doubt that he'd say just about anything in an effort to make Scientology look bad.

All the rest of the websites you list are largely based on lerma and the small handful of others like him. (See http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/Aznaran.htm for background.)

But let's put all of that aside for a second. The whole "Paulette Cooper Scandal" took place in the early and mid-70s. Scientology, in fact, had been on the Nixon-era IRS Enemy's List (along with John Lennon, black leaders and all the rest). In far too many cases, people could just about allege or do anything to an "IRS Enemy", and get away with it.

So how reliable can we consider the details of those oppositional statements about Scientology from the early 1970s? Probably not very reliable.

Further, we already know that Scientology made their share of mistakes in the 70s in attempts to prove their case against the IRS. And some even ultimately went to jail. This was mentioned in #70 above by a Scientologist, and the Scientology website itself discusses this. And so, when you have a handful of bad apples in a group, how difficult would it be to make further unsubstantiated allegations about the whole group -- or even just how bad the handful were? Not difficult at all.

And so separating the truth from the lies in this whole thing is nearly impossible. Just as many things were in the Nixon era.

And in all likelihood, it's probably impossible for the new leaders in Scientology to figure out all the details of what actually happened as well.

And so using a questionable activity based on information from unreliable people from a very murky period (30-35 years ago) as evidence against Scientology today, seems a tad far-fetched to me. And if you espouse it as fact, then yes I call you extremist. And if you believe it hook.line.sinker, I call you gullible.

#185-- Re: BBC, Scientology and YouTube

ABC News' assessment was:

"It's tough to say who comes off worse in this battle. In public relations terms, it's probably a draw. That in itself is extraordinary. In this modern age, when the BBC takes on the Church of Scientology, it's YouTube that has leveled the playing field."
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3184003

#185

With the intervening time between the Panorama show and today -- it's not tough to know who won.

Scientology.

It won because it accomplished the two-part strategy it set. I am guessing at it, but as a Scientologist for nearly 40 years, I believe this to be accurate.

The first part: a lying, muck raker with no journalistic ethics.

The second part: Get the BBC investigated by those who grant it the license to operate because BBC executives were unwilling to lean up its own act.

How did this Scientology achievement come to pass and in such a short time?

1. 100,000 copies of the DVD exposing Sweeny was sent to every key person in the UK.

See it at:
http://www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org/watch-the-video-documentary.php

This primed those who care about honesty and fair reporting to start carefully looking at the BBC.

2. Shortly after the show on Scientology, another BBC "documentary" distorted facts about (of all people) the Queen of England!

The investigation of the BBC is now in full throttle, and heads are starting to roll.

AND the book Sweeney wrote to discredit soccer player Wayne Rooney has now been stopped by the publisher, Random House.

Sweeney's reputation as a liar is now well established.

The BBC is being investigated by those who issue it its license.

Scientology 1
BBC 0

Cheers!

#190 wrote: AND the book Sweeney wrote to discredit soccer player Wayne Rooney has now been stopped by the publisher, Random House.

Funny, I hadn't seen that one. I'm sure Sweeney is out there ranting how it's all Scientology's fault. The guy does these blatantly idiotic things (and as you say, to the Queen, no less), and then blames everyone else for the fallout.

#171 - Can you site a source other than a scientology site? The fact you even try to justify this shows people how idiotic you are.

Thanks.

Love this video.

http://www.glumbert.com/media/scientology

#193--What do you think of these statements made by L. Ron Hubbard?

I think its possible to take short quotes from any prolific author out of context all day long. They can be taken out-of-context of the overall situation that was going on at that time, out-of-context of the essay/book/lecture, or by simply leaving out important elements that fully explain their meaning.

The two classic ones you've used are:

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. ..."

"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE ..."

These are directly taken out of context from each of their respective essays. Here, LRH is in fact not directing anyone internally to do this, but simply pointing out how suits and lying are often misused and used in society.

And then the classic one about "making a million" ... well, this was pretty well-covered in message #91 above.

The "Science of Survival" quotes are clearly out of context from their chapters and the overall message of the book (not unlike taking Jesus' quote I'm-here-with-a-sword-to-tear- families-apart out of context, in an attempt to make Jesus look bad).

The rest of the quotes largely fall in the category of being out of place of the times and situations that were occurring when these things were written and, in some cases, with the rest of the policy or essay.

LRH's dominant message in Scientology was most clearly stated when he penned the essay "What is Greatness?" in 1965 where he said:

"The hardest task one can have is to continue to love his fellows despite all reasons he should not.

"And the true sign of sanity and greatness is to so continue.

"For the one who can achieve this, there is abundant hope.

"For those who cannot, there is only sorrow, hatred and despair. And these are not the things of which greatness or sanity or happiness are made."

This, among the many more writings by Hubbard, can be found at: http://liveandgrow.org

#194--Can you site a source other than a scientology site?

No, 194, I cannot. However, if you can cite a source from the EPA which indicates that the Proceedings are not as indicated -- or a source from any of the individual organizations or scientists whose names are on those studies, which state that some aspect is untrue, I'd be happy to look into it for you.

#198

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
- L. Ron Hubbard, A MANUAL ON THE DISSEMINATION OF MATERIAL, 1955

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow."
- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 170

"This is the correct procedure: Spot who is attacking us. Start investigating them promptly for felonies or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies. Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them. Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press. Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 25 February 1966

You pretty much shrugged these off. What's interesting is that this shows the pattern of Scientology dealing with people they don't like. Huh. I wonder what Ms. Duncan and Mr. Blake would say about this.....

His son? This guy was trying to get his hands on Hubbard's estate. He'd have said anything.

Kinda like what the shills for the psych industry are famous for.

#202--You pretty much shrugged these off. What's interesting is that this shows the pattern of Scientology dealing with people they don't like.

I didn't shrug these off. The first one is blatantly out of context from what Hubbard was saying, such that it actually reverses his point. I mentioned this in my response.

In your second one, the statement is out-of-context from the whole book which proposes a method of helping anyone. The quote "dispose of them quietly and without sorrow" simply means that if they're being overly obnoxious simply don't give them auditing anymore.

The third one was made in a desperate time for Scientology, when it was being attacked by the FDA, the IRS, and a number of countries. The Church did ultimately make its case to the courts surrounding the allegations. And it took investigating the motives and the reasons for these attacks. It's done all the time in courts of law, by lawyers and heck, its done by political opponents. And it was worse -- for everyone -- in the 50s/60s during the McCarthy/Johnson/Nixon era where everyone was accused of being either commies, homos or hippies/druggies.

202

Errr... knock-knock ... hmmm ... knock...anyone awake? A 1982 interview by a "son" who wants to steal his father's money. Real credible. (Laughing)

Classic example of document an attackers unethical activities and make them broadly known.

Sweeney is exposed for his blatant disregard for journalistic ethics, lies and manufacturing "facts."

Scientologists documented these. Captured for all time. Distributed 100,000 copies and let those who are in authority take action.

This pathetic shmuck now is known throughout the world as a liar. The "exploding tomato" has just nose dived into an empty pool.

Random House just pulled the plug on his book.

You don't like Scientology Fine. Who cares?

Dianetics is the brainchild of the science fiction writer, Lafayette Ronald (Ron) Hubbard, who founded Scientology in 1952. Its first mention was in a 1950 article in Astounding Science Fiction. Hubbard claimed that dianetics was 'a milestone for Man comparable to his discovery of fire and superior to his invention of the wheel and the arch.'

Dianetics is so convoluted that it is difficult to summarise. The theory is that we each have two minds. One is like a computer and is perfect, the other is the source of all the elements which make that computer malfunction. This reactive mind, it seems, remembers everything which happens to us and, as some of the things are not nice, we remember these 'engrams' and become unhappy. Where the dianetic therapy is used is in ridding the patient of these engrams by making him re-live them until they are erased from his memory. Once you are 'clear' of all your engrams, Dianetics teaches that your IQ knows no limit. As Hubbard put it: 'The Dianetic Clear is to the current normal individual as the current normal individual is to the severely insane.'

Like a number of other pseudo sciences, dianetics had its box of tricks to aid the auditing process. This one was called an electropsychometer. Even when the patient said that nothing was bothering him, if the needle on the box moved, this indicated that an engram was lurking somewhere to be cleared.

Later, other concepts were added; one of which was the 'thetan'. The thetan, it seems, is an immortal being which is such a fine mind that 'a raving mad thetan is far more sane than a normal human being'. At the moment it is 'you' but it can remember past lives going back trillions of years (according to Hubbard), and its memory includes all the engrams that entails. Clearing you of these engrams frees the immortal thetan. It didn't matter to Hubbard that we haven't been around for trillions of years. He frequently used even more ridiculously large numbers. He talks, for example, of 'creation implants' which happened seventy trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years ago. To put that in context, it is generally accepted that the Universe began only a mere 15 billion years ago.

There is a story that Hubbard invented Scientology as a bet that he could invent a new religion and become rich on it. People's gullibility won him that one; and, it seems, they continue to fall for it.

#212--There is a story that Hubbard invented Scientology as a bet that he could invent a new religion and become rich on it.

Yes, we've already covered that. See #91 above. I'm guessing you were just too lazy to actually read any of the above conversation? Actually, scratch that question. The answer is obvious.

People's gullibility won him that one; and, it seems, they continue to fall for it.

Coupled with your laziness, your own gullibility and ignorance seem to be the only winners here.

#213--Read the award-winning Time Magazine ...

Oh yawn, that whole story has been so debunked its ridiculous. Practically the entire cast of witnesses used by Behar lost the suits brought against them, and the only reason that Time and Behar got off was because Behar is the master at telling a lie without actually lying.

As just one example, opening paragraph starts out with Noah Lottick. Unreported by Behar is the fact that Noah was "outed" by his father to the Dean of Noah's school, shortly before Noah's suicide. But guess what WAS reported by Behar? You guessed it -- that Noah had been taking a Scientology course.

Great setup for the rest of the faulty, half-true, hatchet-job article.

#215--That interview was before he got into a dispute with the Church over his father's estate.

The guy is completely non-credible. He changed his views of his father and Scientology endlessly, admitted to just making things up, and ultimately -- in concert with his money-hungry lawyers -- tried to convince the world that his father (who never considered him a "son" in the true sense of the word) was dead so that he could grab his estate.

Why not contemplate the roots of scientology and
L Ron Hubbard's relationship with Jack Parsons and his admiration of Alesiter Crowley (aka The Beast 666).

Here is some food for thought.

Jack Parsons was was chosen by Aleister Crowley to lead the Agape Lodge, the Thelemic Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.) in California.

L Ron Hubbard praciticed magick with old Jack Parsons. They attempted to summon up a living goddess to change the course of history using the
occult ritual the Babalon Working. Trustworthy Hubbard later ran off with Jack's girlfriend and with Jacks money!

Crowley's Law of Thelema which was fundamental to the O.T.O was "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", "Love is the law, love under will".

It seems scientologists get a raw deal as they only get "love under will", under the will of Hubbard and now under the will of his less imposing scientology successor.

Crowley used the Theta symbol Θ as shorthand for Thelema. Hubbard used Theta and the symbol Theta Θ as defining life force.

It is interesting to note that in classical times the symbol Theta Θ was used as a shorthand for Thanatos - the personification of death.

Crowley used a form of crossed cross symbol on the back of his famous Tarot cards. Scientology uses a crossed out cross symbol.

Funnily enough I don't think these crossed out cross symbols are meant to show respect to a brother religion. Perhaps the Christian churches have a potential case here for trademark infringement?

Who said scientolgy wasn't weird, Hubbard thought he was the light-bearer!

There is more weird stuff but you will have to look for yourselves. It is good to get an historical perspective.

Enjoy researching on the internet!

Jen/Gothamist, how many Scientologist defenders are posting on this? My guess is one or two at most. My, aren't they prolific and quick with responses. Almost like a PR/damage control job or something...

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/Articles/buffalo-news-2005-01-30.html

The Buffalo News
January 30, 2005
By MARK SOMMER
News Staff Reporter
Englightenment's Dark Side

Elli Perkins sought help by contacting Dr. Conrad Maulfair Jr. of the holistic Maulfair Medical Center in Topton, Pa.

Maulfair, a Scientologist, requested a sample of Jeremy's hair to diagnose his condition.

After a family visit, Maulfair said Perkins had a high level of arsenic and toxic metals, including titanium, in his system, and he recommended an expensive intravenous therapy, said Nuchereno.

Scientology presents an unwaveringly shiny, upbeat public image, reinforced through its literature, videos and public presentations.
Corrections
2/1/2005
Sunday's article on the Church of Scientology stated Elli Perkins' killing occurred after the opening of its new building in Buffalo. The killing occurred before.

Elli Perkins' killing - coming just five months after the opening of the church's new building in Buffalo - threatened to puncture that image at a critical time.

After Jeremy stabbed his mother, the church began covering trails that could link Jeremy Perkins to Scientology, according to Dunning and her husband.

"This was a black eye they were afraid of," said Rich Dunning, Anne-Marie's husband and the deputy executive director before the couple left Scientology in May 2003.

There were other concerns. Elli Perkins was classified in the church as an "Operating Thetan," meaning she was an upper-level Scientologist.

Bad things, let alone grisly murders, aren't supposed to happen to them, Anne-Marie Dunning said.

"They're afraid it will show OTs are not any different than anyone else, and that's what they're selling," she said. "If she has her salvation, why would she be brutally murdered by her son?"

According to the Dunnings, this is what happened immediately after Elli Perkins was killed:

A handful of the church's national leaders arrived at Buffalo Niagara International Airport from New York City and Clearwater, Fla., within 24 to 36 hours of Elli Perkins' death.

Also flying in from New York was a member of the Office of Special Affairs, the church's legal bureau.

The out-of-town officers gathered Buffalo's church management and instructed them not to discuss Perkins' death with anybody, especially reporters.

"They told us, "Don't say anything, we will handle this. It's a job for the higher-ups,' " Rich Dunning recalled.

That included leaving out any reference to Scientology in Elli Perkins' obituary, although memorial donations were solicited for the Church of Scientology in a paid death notice.

R.P. Singh, a forensic psychiatrist in Rochester, later examined Perkins on behalf of the court.

"There is no science that supports any treatment that is based on hair samples," Singh said.

Maulfair, through his wife, declined requests for an interview.

Elli Perkins decided to prepare her own vitamin supplements, Nuchereno said, but they appeared to have little effect on Jeremy's decline.

Ron Epstein, a next-door neighbor and close friend, Epstein, the neighbor, said the Perkins family made "hundreds" of phone calls in an effort to help their son.

"They pursued every avenue open to them through their belief system," Epstein said. "Although they, as Scientologists, didn't agree with psychiatry, I think they had reached a point that alternative medicine wasn't working and were willing to go beyond that."

Two days before Jeremy's attack, Elli Perkins called the church seeking help for him, said Anne-Marie Dunning, then the church's "ethics officer." She said Carlson, Jeremy's brother-in-law and the executive director, told her to tell Elli to keep him busy.

Jeremy had been classified by the Buffalo church as a Potential Trouble Source Type III, Dunning said. Hubbard had stated that was a person who is "entirely psychotic" and for whom there was "no treatment of a mental nature."

Reger at first denied to The Buffalo News that Perkins had ever been a Scientologist or taken Scientology classes. Later, she admitted he had been a member.

In fact, Perkins had taken Scientology courses in Buffalo as late as 2002, according to Dunning.

He signed a "billion-year contract" (the church believes in reincarnation and the contract is for future lives) to work for an elite branch of Scientology in Los Angeles in the late-1990s, Dunning said, although he appears not to have done so.

Scientology's Source Magazine revealed he took a course in 1999 aboard the church's 500-passenger ship in the Caribbean Sea.

And he, along with others of his immediate family, was also a lifetime member of the International Association of Scientologists, Dunning said.

#224---
"Elli Perkins sought help by contacting Dr. Conrad Maulfair Jr. of the holistic Maulfair Medical Center in Topton, Pa."

Oh lordie, now we're going to get into the battle of alternative vs orthodox mental health treatment.

Sorry to tell you 224, but scientologists are not alone in looking for alternatives to some of the orthodox "treatments" that are out there. Heres a link that might give a clue why.

http://ssristories.com

and no the link is not connected to scientology.

#227--THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM

Now the scientology haters are just repeating themselves, instead of addressing the scientology supporter's response.

This quote was already addressed by someone in 198, saying it was out of context.

If someone wants to address the context of the quote directly, then fine. Otherwise 227, you just sound like a broken record.

#229--Granted, the above quote IS part of a bigger piece in which LRH reflects on "That person who is trying to control you is lying to you." ..etc.

Thank you, #229, for owning up to posting something out of context, and effectively making it look like LRH was saying something when he wasn't.

It takes guts to make such an admission.

Although we have seen in post 155 & 158 that LRH is far from infallible

Not only was LRH infallible but so was/is Scientology. The only claim that LRH (and most Scientologists) ever made/make for Scientology is that it is workable, not perfect.

The references you provide, if they ever were part of Scientology, were almost certainly not authored by LRH. And of course, they are not part of Scientology today. It was a transitional period for Scientology (and society) -- plenty of mistakes were made. With regard to non-LRH BTBs, they could have been introduced and/or written by just about anyone.

"This is the correct procedure: Spot who is attacking us. Start investigating them promptly for felonies or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies. Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them. Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press. Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 25 February 1966

"Scientology ... is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion."
LRH Creation of Human Ability (1954) page 251

"[scientology] Ethics is not concerned with 'acceptable social behavior'"
- HCOPL 23 Feb 70 "Ethics, Quality of Service".

"...Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her
crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes
exist...."
* L. Ron Hubbard, "Critics of Scientology", November 5, 1967

Is LRH talking about the current crop of scientology leadership in this quote from 1950?

"Dianetics is not in any way covered by legislation anywhere, for no law can prevent one man sitting down and telling another man his troubles, and if anyone wants a monopoly on dianetics, be assured that he wants it for reasons which have to do not with dianetics but with profit."
-L. Ron Hubbard, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
Ch.1. (1950)

a more thorough discussion of the "start a religion to make a million dollars" is here: http://www.bible.ca/scientology-1million-start-a-religion.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_v._Church_of_Scientology_of_Toronto

On 17 September 1984 Morris Manning, a lawyer working for the Church, and representatives of the Church of Scientology held a press conference on the courthouse steps in Toronto. Manning, wearing his barrister's gown, read from and commented upon allegations in a notice of motion by Scientology intending to commence criminal contempt proceedings against a Crown attorney, Casey Hill. The motion alleged that Hill had misled a judge and had breached orders sealing certain documents belonging to Scientology in the case R. v. Church of Scientology of Toronto.

At the contempt proceeding where the appellants were seeking a fine or imprisonment against the defendant, the allegations against Hill were found to be completely untrue and without foundation. Thus Hill launched a lawsuit for damages in libel against the appellants. Both appellants were found jointly liable for general damages of $300,000 CAD and Scientology alone was liable for aggravated damages of $500,000 CAD and punitive damages of $800,000 CAD. The judgement was affirmed in a 1993 decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal. The major issues raised in this appeal are: Is the common law of defamation valid in light of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and whether the jury's award of damages can stand.

The jury award that was upheld in this appeal was the largest libel award in Canadian history. Barrister Manning and the Church of Scientology were found jointly liable for general damages of $300,000 CAD. Scientology alone was liable for aggravated damages of $500,000 CAD and punitive damages of $800,000 CAD, making Scientology's total liability $1,600,000 CAD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_A._Wollersheim

In 1986, a jury awarded Wollersheim $5 million in compensatory damages and $25 million to punish the church for what jurors called intentional and negligent "infliction of emotional distress." On appeal, however, this was reduced to $2.5 million. Scientology officials vowed never to pay, and the phrase "not one thin dime for Wollersheim," was chanted by Scientologists at court hearings. [1]

After over 20 years of legal battling, the Church finally agreed to settle the case and pay out an $8.7 million settlement on May 9, 2002. [1]

The money that the Church of Scientology deposited with the court clerk was divided among the various attorneys of Wollersheim who made claims against the funds. According to Larry Wollersheim, as of May, 2005, there was less than $2.3 million left in the account and there was still an ongoing claim by attorney Leta Schlosser for $2.7 million against the fund. Wollersheim claims he had not received any of the funds from the case.[6] On October 28, 2005 it was reported in the Los Angeles daily legal publication, the Metropolitan News-Enterprise, that the Wollersheim case was still ongoing and a trial was forthcoming regarding the Leta Schlosser matter. It reported that Schlosser had already received $100,000, but she was suing for much more.[7] On December 8, 2006, it reported that Wollersheim had won the case on appeal, because Schlosser lacks an enforceable lien because she did not comply with the Rules of Professional Conduct. [8]

Re: #236, #237 and #238

And you know what, Scientology is still here ... bigger than ever, better known than ever and the only "winners" in these skirmishes were the lawyers.

Every criticism in this entire litany of comments has been thoroughly answered and/or debunked by the Scientology supporters above.

Fitting that Followers of LRH are as thoroughly dissillusioned and detached from reality as he was.
Perhaps a shot of Vistaril® is in order?

"According to what Hubbard's doctor told the coroner, and what the labs from the autopsy found, Hubbard had been injected with Vistaril® and only Vistaril® in a non-hospital setting. That's what you do with a psychiatrically disturbed or drug withdrawal patient."
"L Ron Hubbard was given Vistaril® by Dr. Gene Denk in his final days, by intramuscular injection in the right buttocks. Vistaril® is a psychiatric drug, used to calm frantic or overly anxious patients.
-These are public documents, available from the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office. Coroner's file #8936"

Sadly, The Emperor[Commodore] Has no Clothes.

#242--Vistaril® is a psychiatric drug, used to calm frantic or overly anxious patients.

Oh good lord. No it's not. Vistaril (aka hydroxyzine) is an antihistamine used to treat allergies or as a sedative.
http://www.medicinenet.com/hydroxyzine/article.htm

And according to the coroner's report, Hubbard had a "trace amount" at autopsy.

You are just too much "Lisa McPherson". First the blatant out-of-context quote in #227 (that someone had to debunk, before you admitted it), and now this ridiculous claim that Hubbard was injected with a "psychiatric drug" prior to his death.

You are too much. You lose more and more credibility, with each message you write.

#245--Cazares suspicions about the group was confirmed by a number of newspapers. ...
The church decided against a public trial and instead opted to settle with Cazares in 1986.

Which fits perfectly in line with the Scientologists' arguments made in #70, #98, #118 and #186 above. In brief, the Church went through some tumultous times in the 1970s and emerged in the 1980s with new leadership, a re-organized structure and the desire to move on.

And of course since then, Scientology has received full recognition as a religious and charitable organization from the US Internal Revenue Service, and enjoys the support from the US State Department. And its relationship with the city of Clearwater, Florida and surrounding areas has never been better.

"Scientology + Celeb = Cool"
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/19/Hillsborough/Scientology__celeb___.shtml

#247--"BUT attackers are simply an anti-Scientology propaganda agency so far as we are concerned. They have proven they want no facts and will only lie no matter what they discover. -- LRH"

Boy, we've certainly learned the truth of that one here a couple times, haven't we? Our very own attack-dog "Lisa McPherson" has shown a complete disregard for facts -- blatantly taking an LRH quote out of context so as to reverse its meaning (see #227/228), and then recklessly calling an antihistimine a "psychiatric drug" (see #242/244) so as to create further false impressions.

#249--http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/Articles/buffalo-news-2005-01-31.html ...

[clipped the entire article]

I really wish the Scientology detractors would make some attempt at engaging in conversation or debate, or respond to some of the pro-Scientology responses above, if they are able.

Just posting an article on Scientology -- pro or con -- without any commentary, seems sort of ... well, mindless.

#249

Yeah, but people are posting critical links for
the general public to see and read, they know
that nothing they say will ever change a scientologists mind, especially if the scientologist has been detailed to "handle" this blog.

If you guy can't even concede a small fact like
Hubbard saying " Writing words for pennies is stupid, if a man really wants to get rich he starts a religion", which has been attested to by many people who knew Hubbard and has been printed in numerous newspapers, then there's not much hope
that you'll ever admit to anything that might make scientology look bad. Scientology tried to sue newspapers who have printed that quote and they've always lost, I think that might mean that
there's a good chance that he actually said it.

We know that standard scientology line, "people who are against scientology are liars or criminals
or they're just trying to make money, or they are
suppresive bigots who are against human rights
and scientology "helping" people". That's all your ever going to say so there's not much of a debate.

#253

You are lucky you can comment on Gotahamist anonymously and unmoderated.

I have not found one scientology blog that allows such freedom. No contradictory views are tolerated by scientologists.

The party line must be followed. The voice of dissent must be quashed.

#254--You are lucky you can comment on Gotahamist anonymously

The only reason I remain anonymous on here is because of the extremism the Scientology haters resort to in their crusade to attack Scientology.

All one has to do is look at Keith Henson and others like him, to see how extremist the Scientology haters can become (see #92). And there's plenty of evidence for this all over the net, with Scientologists being harassed, spammed, censored and threatened, on an ongoing basis by the haters.

Information for Scientologists and those contemplating Scientology or Dianetics.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/index.html
The Secrets of Scientology

http://www.scientology-lies.com/
Scientology Lies

http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html
Rick A. Ross Institute - Scientology

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/scientology/
The Rotten Library – Scientology

http://www.lermanet.com/frontgroups.html
Lermanet – Scientology Front Groups

http://www.xenu.net/
Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology

http://alley.ethercat.com/door/index.html
Scientology - Through the Door - with survey interviews of over 200 former Scientologists

http://web.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/journal/mjr/kent.html
Scientology—is this a Religion?
Stephen A Kent (1999)
University of Alberta, Edmonton/Alberta, Canada
Department of Sociology

http://www.xenutv.com/
XENU TV - Exposing Scientology Through Streaming Video

http://www.lermanet.com/paulette-cooper/
Looking over my shoulder, The Inside Account of the Story That Almost Killed Me
Paulette Cooper
Saturday, June 23, 2007

Nice little piece on DM's rise to power in Scientology.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/bs6-3.htm

Still on a tangent though. We should really be discussing whether or not Scientology was involved with Ms. Duncan and Mr. Blake's "suicides". Doesn't anyone else find it convienent that it was an anonymous woman that reported Blake walking into the ocean????

Scientologist can't move their lips without lying. This is evident by their continued defamation of Keith Henson. A man who sits in jail right now for speaking out against the Co$. Keith Henson is a victim of Scientology's "fair game" policy. As usual there is a mountain of evidence against the claims made by the Co$, one only has to search. All the Scientologist can do is lie to cover up.

Here are some sources you should read if you're interested in knowing the truth:

1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson (Wiki)
2)http://www.eff.org/effector/HTML/effect14.13.html#II (EFF)
3)http://www.operatingthetan.com/
4)http://www.holysmoke.org/kh/kh.htm
5)http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/04/scientology-fugitive-arrested/

#257--"Even if the Vistaril® was for allergies, the fact remains, LRH was on a psychoactive medication when he died. LRH was on a psychoactive* medication when he died."

Oh please. That's like saying aspirin is "psychoactive". The only fact, "Lisa McPherson", is how far you are willing to go to misrepresent anything related to Scientology.

#265 - I assign you a condition of Confusion....

#265 - That is a flat out, bald face lie you're telling.

#268 - If you didn't have your Scientology provide software that blocks any and all references on the web that the church doesn't like you would be able to look it up in multiple places. You can read more about it here - but I doubt that you will be able to open the page.....

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/fairgame.htm

Keith Henson was just protesting scientology
outside of "Gold Base", the scientology compound near Gilman Hot Springs California. Scientology.
He got arrested for " interfering with a religion" which seems ridiculous for it's free speech implications and for the fact that he was just standing with a sign in front of the place.

He also made a joke in the usenet newsgroup
alt.religion.scientology about sending a "cruise
missile" there. Scientology seized on that and tried to construe it as making a terroristic threat. Keith does'nt have any history as a violent person though and I believe it would cost
at least a million dollars for a cruise missile, if you could even get one, so it's hard to see how
this supposed threat could be anything else but a joke.

#271--Full listing of sites Scientologist are not allowed to visit

Sorry 271, I'm a Scientologist and I visit whatever sites I want, whenever I want. And I don't work for Scientology or OSA.

You've been misinformed.

Here's a nice little affidavit of Dennis Erlich being sued for posting the above policy. The curch lost.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/c82a4431f56f6424

It's real.

The Bridge - Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVyZJYXd46Q&mode=related&search=

The Bridge - Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uquISfKXvi0&mode=related&search=

The Bridge - Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU86PkPhyP0&mode=related&search=

The Bridge - Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_tOolULQ1Q

#273--Please cite the Church reference where the supposed policy can be found (i.e. book, volume, lecture, etc).
#276--Here's a nice little affidavit...

I'll take that as your admission, #276, that you agree that there is no such Church reference. Otherwise, please produce it and stop your silly hand waving.

#287--He was sued for copyright infringement. Can't sue for that unless you own the copyright.

More hand-waving. He was sued for copyright infringement of other documents, not that one.

Further, Ehrlich was part of the Gerald "just allege it" Armstrong Show. The accuracy and authenticity of documents on his computer is far from certain (along with any resultant affidavits).

Finally, being that he worked in the mid-level of the Church in the 1970s, he may have even thought they were authentic (and/or written by LRH), unaware that they weren't.

So we are back to the original question: what is the Church reference where one can find that supposed policy?

Nowhere.

It doesn't exist.

Deranged Person Alert

Excerpt from an LA Times article:
"What is Scientology?"
By Joel Sappell and Robert W. Welkos
Times Staff Writers
June 24, 1990

--->>

Shrouded in mystery and kept in locked cabinets at select church locations, the course is called Operating Thetan III, billed by the church as "the final secret of the catastrophe which laid waste to this sector of the galaxy." It is taught only to the most advanced church members, at fees ranging to $6,000.

Hubbard told his followers that while unlocking the secret, he "became very ill, almost lost this body and somehow or another brought it off and obtained the material and was able to live through it."

Here's what he said he learned:

Seventy-five million years ago a tyrant named Xenu (pronounced Zee-new) ruled the Galactic Confederation, an alliance of 76 planets, including Earth, then called Teegeeack.

To control overpopulation and solidify his power, Xenu instructed his loyal officers to capture beings of all shapes and sizes from the various planets, freeze them in a compound of alcohol and glycol and fly them by the billions to Earth in planes resembling DC-8s. Some of the beings were captured after they were duped into showing up for a phony tax investigation.

The beings were deposited or chained near 10 volcanoes scattered around the planet. After hydrogen bombs were dropped on them, their thetans were captured by Xenu's forces and implanted with sexual perversion, religion and other notions to obscure their memory of what Xenu had done.

Soon after, a revolt erupted. Xenu was imprisoned in a wire cage within a mountain, where he remains today.

But the damage was done.

During the last 75 million years, these implanted thetans have affixed themselves by the thousands to people on Earth. Called "body thetans," they overwhelm the main thetan who resides within a person, causing confusion and internal conflict.

In the Operating Thetan III course, Scientologists are taught to scan their bodies for "pressure points," indicating the presence of these bad thetans. Using techniques prescribed by Hubbard, church members make telepathic contact with these thetans and remind them of Xenu's treachery. With that, Hubbard said, the thetans detach themselves.

Hubbard first unveiled his Scientology theories during a series of often breathless lectures he delivered in Wichita, Kan., Phoenix and Philadelphia in 1952.

His talks were sprinkled with tales of interplanetary adventures he said he had experienced during earlier lives.

There was the time, for instance, that Hubbard said he was resting in a peaceful valley on a barren planet in some remote galaxy, and decided to spruce up the place. He said he "fixed up a lake" and "managed to coax into existence a few vines."

Then, "all of a sudden -- zoop boom -- and there was a spaceship," Hubbard recalled, saying "I got pretty mad about the whole thing."

"I remember bringing a thunderstorm," Hubbard said. "Moved it over the ship. ... And then (I) let them have it."

Hubbard told associates that he had been many people before being born as Lafayette Ronald Hubbard on March 13, 1911, in Tilden, Neb. One of them was Cecil Rhodes, the British-born diamond king of southern Africa. Another, according to a former aide, was a marshal to Joan of Arc.

After Hubbard's death in 1986, a Scientology publication described him as "the original musician," who 3 million years ago invented music while going by the name "Arpen Polo." The publication noted that "he wrote his first song a bit after the first tick of time."

Hubbard realized that his accounts of past lives, implants and extraterrestrial creatures might sound suspect to outsiders. So he counseled his disciples to keep mum.

"Don't start walking around and telling people about space opera because they're not going to believe you," he said, "and they're going to say, 'Well, that's just Hubbard.' "

Link to original article
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-scientologysidea062490,0,6116838.story

Bernie cncfamily is'nt really the most credible website. Did scientology have to pay or coerce for
that final Aznaran affidavit since it totally contradicts her earlier ones?

22. Cult Apologists FAQ Entry on James Richardson
http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/faq-you/cult.apologists.txt

James Richardson
http://www.unr.edu/arts-n-science/soc/jtr.htm

Minor cult apologist who is Professor of Sociology and Judicial Studies
at the University of Nevada in Reno (!). He is the President of the
American Association of University Professors.

Says that Leo Ryan is ''not a hero'', but a ''tragic figure like Jim
Jones'', and that he was co-responsible for what happened, and that he
was ''as mad as Jones''. http://bernie.cncfamily.com/ryan1.htm

In the article ''Print Media Coverage of New Religious Movements: A
Longitudinal Study'' (Journal of Communication 38(3), 1998, pp. 37-61) he
says on p.45:

The People's temple was not included in our sample because it is
an atypical NRM in term of its origins, the characteristics of
its members, its organisational structure, the amount of social
contact between the group and the ''outside world,'' the
recruitment and resocialization techniques it uses, and its
theology and ideology.

As evidence for amazing allegation (Jonestown is a very typical example
of a destructive cult!), he quotes himself: ''People's Temple and
Jonestown: A Corrective Comparison and Critique'', Journal for the
Scientific Study of Religion 19(3), 1980, pp. 239-255.

This is not the only scurrilous allegation. He also starts the same
article by claiming that the media functions as an institution of social
control that marginalizes and discredits oppositional movements. (Funny,
my experience with media is that they primarly *report* on them)

He participated in the filing of an amicus brief in the Molko case ''for''
the APA/ASA (American Psychological Association / American Sociological
Association). Both the APA and the ASA later withdrew their names.

Testified against legislation in Nevada that would have brought
''consumer protection'' for potential cult members. (Review of Religious
Research, 28(2), December 1986)

Claimed under oath in the Moscow trial against Prof. Alexander Dvorkin
that a person can belong simultaneously to scientology, the Moon
organisation, Krishna, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, CoG, the Local
church (Witness Lee), Mother of God center, and the Vissarionites.
(Dvorkin had made a booklet partly based on Steve Hassan's ''Questions
for the Educated Consumer'', and was sued by an inter-cult group. Dvorkin
won the lawsuit and it was upheld on appeal).

James Richardson is on the referral list of the scientology-run Cult
Awareness Network
http://www.cultawarenessnetwork.org/referral/

and of ''The Family''
http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/referrals/experts.htm
[...more...] [Need the full story? Read this]

* The Cult Apologist FAQ, produced by Tilman Hausherr, includes
additional material on James Richardson's views.

Amusing little music video. Sampled elron's own taped lectures. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJ7f1JUvMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksDoVUTy1go

#297--that whole pesky truth again....

The only "pesky truth" is that the Scientology detractors here are ignoring the fact that every criticism of Scientology has been thoroughly debunked by the Scientology supporters above.

A video showing how humane LRH is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmziDR3f4PA&mode=related&search=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing_Manual

Brain-Washing (subtitle: A Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics), sometimes referred to as "The Brainwashing Manual", is a book published by the Church of Scientology in 1955.

It says that it is a transcript of a speech on the use of psychiatry as a means of social control, given by Lavrenty Beria in the Soviet Union in 1950. However L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., son of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, stated:

"Dad wrote every word of it. Barbara Bryan and my wife typed the manuscript off his dictation." [1]

Hubbard's former editor, John Sanborn, confirmed Hubbard Jr.'s testimony.

Hubbard tried to present the Federal Bureau of Investigation with a copy, but the Bureau expressed skepticism about the document's authenticity. [2] The book has Beria using obvious Hubbardisms such as "thinkingness" or "pain-drug-hypnosis", and making an unlikely mention of Dianetics side by side with Christian Science and Catholicism as major world wide "healing groups".

In 1963 the Australian Board of Inquiry regarded the book as written by Hubbard, something that neither Hubbard nor the Church of Scientology's HASI {Hubbard Association of Scientologists International) refuted at the time.

[edit] The Anderson Report

The final results of the Anderson Report in 1965 declared:

"The Board is not concerned to find that the scientology techniques are brainwashing techniques as practised, so it is understood, in some communist-controlled countries. Scientology techniques are, nevertheless, a kind of brainwashing... The astonishing feature of Scientology is that its techniques and propagation resemble very closely those set out in a book entitled Brain-washing, advertised and sold by the HASI." [3]

Here's a little extract from a new Cult Awareness
Organziation(now owned by Scientology) website.

http://www.cultawarenessnetwork.org/AUM/SECTION_2/06.html

So what was brainwashing? As early as 1955 the author and philosopher, L. Ron Hubbard spoke of it when he had been dropped off some manuals on brainwashing. Apparently they were sent by a professor "Charles Stickly" from Columbia University in New York City. The manuals appeared to be a German translation of a 1947 Russian instruction book, a synthesis on brainwashing. n

Brainwashing is a term given to the methods employed to have a person alter his basic beliefs about a subject. Those methods should not be confused with those methods which use psychiatric drugs and hypnosis to control a person. Both methods are examined in this article, but only brainwashing specifically refers to non-drug or nonhypnotic means.

In researching the materials sent to an organization which in turn sent them on to Mr. L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard found that brainwashing was just a new term for an older term called "psychopolitiks. ",z L. Ron Hubbard wrote, "in the original text of this book there was a warning to psychopolitical operatives that they must stamp out Dianetics, Christian Science, and practical psychology, as these alone represented a menace to the brainwashing programs. This reference in the text to Dianetics (which has been known to the Russians since 1938) makes the matter very much our business, quite aside from research."

Nice little page of Hubbard quotes directly from his taped lectures. I'm sure they are all out of context. Because his religion is compatible with all religions, right?

http://www.ami.com.au/~bradw/cos/Sounds/index.html

This just in.....

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDbHIiu78StkRGSY4VEMRVqtlfXA

Scientology Faces Criminal Charges

By CONSTANT BRAND – 4 hours ago

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) — A Belgian prosecutor on Tuesday recommended that the U.S.-based Church of Scientology stand trial for fraud and extortion, following a 10-year investigation that concluded the group should be labeled a criminal organization.

Scientology said it would fight the criminal charges recommended by investigating prosecutor Jean-Claude Van Espen, who said that up to 12 unidentified people should face charges.

Van Espen's probe also concluded that Scientology's Brussels-based Europe office and its Belgian missions conducted unlawful practices in medicine, violated privacy laws and used illegal business contracts, said Lieve Pellens, a spokeswoman at the Federal Prosecutors Office.

"They also face charges of being ... a criminal organization," Pellens said in a telephone interview.

An administrative court will decide whether to press charges against the Scientologists.

In a statement, Scientology's Europe office accused the prosecutor of hounding the organization and said it would contest the charges.

"For the last 10 years, the prosecutor has been using the media, trying to damage the reputation of the Church of Scientology and not being able to put a case in court," Scientology said. "As a consequence, this created a climate of intolerance and discrimination" in Belgium.

It added that the prosecutor's recommendations suggested Scientology was guilty even before a court could hear the charges, making it "difficult for the Church of Scientology to recover and properly defend (itself) before the court."

Scientology has been active in Belgium for nearly three decades. In 2003, it opened an international office near the headquarters of the European Union to lobby for its right to be recognized as an official religious group, a status it does not enjoy in Belgium.

A Belgian parliamentary committee report in 1997 labeled Scientology a sect and investigations were launched into the group's finances and practices, such as the personality tests conducted on new members.

Investigators have spent the past decade trying to determine how far Scientology went in recruiting converts after numerous complaints were filed with police by ex-members alleging they'd been the victims of intimidation and extortion.

Justice officials seized financial records, correspondence, bank statements and other papers in their decade-long probe to track the flow of money to Scientology. Police also raided the offices of several consultancy firms linked to the Church of Scientology.

Pellens said that prosecutors expect Scientology to mount a strong legal challenge to the charges at a court hearing, which could come in the next two to three months. She acknowledged that could delay the case for years.

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

The German government considers Scientology a commercial enterprise that takes advantage of vulnerable people.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, which is seeking to expand in Europe and be recognized as a legitimate religion, teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. The church, founded in 1954, counts actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta among its 10 million members.

Hey Jack ass - Rev. John Carmichael - please comment.