August 13, 2007
Red Hook: Dead End?
The NY Post reports on the ever-declining neighborhood of Red Hook today, with the area going through some changes that may make some suckers wonder why they just spent $800K on an apartment there. The Brooklyn Paper reported on the neighborhood last month as well, stating it "is in fact turning cold one year after New York’s gentrification guard branded it as The Next Big Thing." Of course, the "gentrification guard" had its eyes on the area for more than a year, in 2004 The Red Hook Gowanus Chamber of Commerce stated, '"It feels like Red Hook is being dismissed as the viable maritime and industrial community that it is. They've determined that its future is as a luxury waterfront community."
So is Red Hook the victim of an over-hyped market, or is it just continuing to be what it's always been: a pretty isolated and hard to get to area? Growth and change like this seem to happen a bit more quickly when the area in question is only one subway stop away. Nevertheless, it seemed a bright future was on the horizon following Barbara Corcoran's $1-million purchase of a building on Van Brunt Street. Just a year later, however, many of the places that make Red Hook a neighborhood are now shutting down: 360, Old Pioneer, Lido Bar, LeNell’s liquor store and venue The Hook are all closing their doors, and the bookstore Freebird is up for sale on Craigslist. And things don't look so good when mainstay bar Sunny’s is only open three nights a week. Can the ballfield vendors be saved at least?
Van Brunt Street is now left with two bars, two upscale restaurants, a wine shop and a bakery. IKEA will be coming to the 'hood soon, and Fairway has already set up shop there - but will more big name chains move in? The idea has residents "bracing for a traffic nightmare in the subway-less 'hood."
UPDATE: There seems to be some confusion on whether or not Lido bar is closing. From the Brooklyn Paper article linked to above, Ariella Cohen writes, "My favorite bookstore, Freebird on nearby Columbia Street, is for sale on Craig’s List, as is another Columbia Street establishment, Lido bar." Some employees have stated otherwise in the comments on this post, however.
Photo of an old streetcar in Red Hook via Mikey 1994's Flickr.
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Ikea will be the best thing that could happen to RH for awhile...
Anyway, I'll keep going taking the bus to the NJ Ikea...
since I live in Hell's kitchen, I take the free Ikea bus from port authority. gets us out of the house and gives the kids something to do.
Ikea will turn red hook into a traffic-clogged mess.
The reality is Red Hook is a dump. I would go there when IKEA opens (by way of ferry from lower Manhattan) and for nothing else. As the article said, it's "isolated and hard to get to."
it works for destination shopping...fairway, ikea, even the new garden stores should do fine
but too much out-of-the way for residential IMO...goes to show you how housing projects can ruin an area forever
Red Hook is too isolated from mass transit. This will either work in the area's favor over time or continue to plague it from developing or attracting new investment. That's just my initial thought.
I think stories like this may be the saving grace of Red Hook. It's kind of a dump, but at least it's interesting. Maybe it will remain that way.
I thought Sunny's was only open 2-3 days a week for like ten years now, am I right? If so, I'm not sure that's a sign of decline.
I could be wrong, it's been a while...
I lived in Red Hook from 1996-1998. I had a big, cheap apartment across the street from a sketchy chop shop and an even more sketchy chicken processing plant. My roomate and I paid $350 a piece in rent.
Needless to say, it didn't last long. Hearing that Red Hook was the Next Big Thing, my landlord sold the building for a pittance and the new owner made a few extremely superficial "improvements" (a fresh coat of paint and a new lightbulb in the foyer hardly count, dammit!) and jacked our rent up to $1200. Still in my earlier twenties and under-employed, I moved in with friends in Kensington.
I still regret being priced out of the neigborhood, but will revel in my schadenfreude that the asshat that priced me out probably isn't seeing much of a return on his investment. I mean, who wants to pay thousands of dollars to watch chicken blood being hosed off the sidewalk every morning?
red hook doesn't get invaded by drunken twentysomethings every weekend .. you can get great food for cheap .. rents are reasonable .. there is a decent art and music scene (though we need more venues!) ... and it's a pretty friendly place.
by the way: lido bar closing? haven't heard this one yet (then again, i've been out of town for a whole week).
Lots of misleading information in this piece--360 is closing because the crotchety owner would rather be fishing. LeNell's is quite successful and has simply losing their lease, hardly a "sky is falling" indication of local fortunes. Things change and Red Hook is a unique neighborhood. To draw broad conclusions from a couple of anecdotes in a very quirky area is not particularly illuminating.
Are newcomers completely blind to the largest housing projects just two blocks away? They will never go away and will always keep property values down.
I think it's the mass transit that makes Redhook tough. I mean, once it gets snowy and shitty outside you are very isolated. And yes it is a total dump in areas, but funky and interesting. I actually spent a lot of time there this past weekend. The pool is amazing as is the all-weather running track and the piers.
if it wasnt for the projects, the isolation and lack of mass transit would be spun as an advantage by the broker babblists . . .
I like going to Fairway for the harborside coffee break while I shop. They have a busy fresh fish counter too.
But to consider living hemmed in on one side by the water and on the other side by this city's legendarily worst dead-end high-rise projects -- whaddayouthink, I just moved to NYC?
Oh, that's right -- suckers who pay $800k for an apartment there, that exactly what they've done -- just moved to NYC.
Whatever happened to the idea of a trolly from red hook to carrol street train station..?
There's projects all over the five boroughs.
what makes this one different is because of it's isolated location. there's a reason why they used to call the "docks" dangerous.
The trolley idea died long ago. Red Hook was good until Lillie's Bar closed. Anyone who paid 800K for an apartment there is an idiot. Haven' you seen the film, "Straight out of Brooklyn"? It hasn't chanegd much. believe me you. Fairway has turned RH into yuppie no-where ville, with all those high priced cars driving through RH to get to Fairway. I'll save my money and my time and go to the Pathmark by Lowe's, thank you. Ikea will ruin RH more, but whatever, I don't live tehre, Lillie's is long gone and I could give a rat's ass.
East Harlem is booming with new developments, and that whole area is one big project.
Why would kids from the PJs rob artists in Red Hook when they can walk a few blocks down and rob yuppies in Cobble Hill? It's much easier to rob people over there, because it's not isolated and not so close to home. You jack someone's shit and skip out on the bqe. Robbing people in Red Hook would just bring more cops there and fuck up the dough you get from selling crack.
comparing pathmark to fairway is laughable
ha
ha
Anyone who thought Red Hook was the next big thing is an idiot. It is no coincidence that NYC expansion was directly related to subway expansion. I think if they made a nice, ocean parkway style, bike path Red Hook could be an awesome destination/home for the pedal powered.
21 makes a good point..it can be a showcase for the benefits of bike-friendly urban planning
Lido Bar is *not* closing its doors. This is an error -- apparently, no one even bothered to call an owner to fact-check this statement!
Hi folks, I work at Lido and just wanted to say that we are not closing. Molly (the manager) asked me to pass that along. But if you think we are closing, then why not come down and see what you're missing? We can all drink to Lido's future.
See you there,
Justin
Lido Bar
200 Columbia (btw President and Degraw)
Red Hook is amazing: I had a delicious dinner at Alma last night after some drinks at B61 and then strolled home through the peaceful streets. Where did you hear Lido was closing, Jen? I'm friends with a couple of the employees and none of them have heard anything of the sort.
Don't get me wrong: If it keeps irritating people from moving in, by all means spread misinformation.
Bottom Line: We are all happy when "the next big neighborhood" doesn't gentrify as fast as "they" say it's going to. But that doesn't mean that Red Hook is bad. It's actually quite the opposite.
I'm pretty sure Alma isn't in Red Hook...
@26: I'm sorry... is Alma in "The Columbia Waterfront District?" "Bococa?" "Carroll Gardens West?"
It's basically across the street from Lido. If Lido's in Red Hook, so is Alma.
The biggest problem with Red Hook is getting to and from there. It is too far from the subway and that makes it hard to get to.
Access is what makes or breaks someplace.
Williamsburg and Greenpoint actually have some subway service, while Red Hook has none.
Sure the Water Taxi stops there, but it isn't integrated with the MTA.
Ideally, some sort of light rail line as found in New Jersey would be a great option for transit underserved areas of the city, like Red Hook. It is way better than the oxymoronic bus rapid transit and also means less tailpipes polluting the air.
anything east of the BQE/BBT is NOT red hook
Alma is "Carroll Gardens West." Lido is btw Sackett and Degraw Streets and also Carroll Gardens West. But Mike D is right that Red Hook proper isn't so bad. With time and money (from the City for more transit options), Red Hook could become a nice nabe. The presence of projects will not be the problem since there are projects in many other gentrified nabes (ie. Boerum Hill).
@29: Alma is west of the BQE, but North/East of the BBT.
22: I know right! I should so be an urban planner.
31: i was referring to the line made by the
BQE(Gowanus)/BBT on a map...
I don't think Red Hook will ever be the "it" neighborhood (could be wrong), but I think that it's based on the location -- not what Red Hook has to offer. There are some great places in Red Hook and I think there is a lot of opportunity for growth and improvement.
Having a car is a good thing in Red Hook.
33: There is a little delta west of the BQE and east of the BBT. There is a lot of contention about what to call this area. I like to call it "home," but you can call it what you'd like.
36: fair enough..i'm just thankful for singa'a pizza
one day it might be called brooklyn bridge park south
red hook also floods like crazy
As commenter 11 pointed out, this piece is full of mistakes, made worse by the fact that Jen Carlson couldn't even regurgitate the Post's story properly. (At least they reported correctly that LeNell's is losing its lease, not closing for good - big difference, Jen.) And as commenter 8 suggests, Sunny's has only been open on those three nights a week for ages.
With a little bit of your own reporting, you might have included a reference to Tini, the (newish) wine bar next door to LeNell's, the fact that the ballfields have been swamped by huge crowds this summer (crowds of people for whom Red Hook is obviously not that hard to get to), and the news that Neil Ganic of Petite Crevette is said to be opening a restaurant in the old Lillie's space.
LeNell should head back to whatever Podunk town she came from. Can't stand her!
There are more vacant lots in Red Hook than people and more mosquitos than vacant lots....
The rumors of our death are greatly exagerated. Lido is NOT closed, nor are we closing. Except at 4AM every morning. Help a small business out and give us a call before you report we are dead. Better yet, come roll on in for Buckhunter Tuesdays, Friday night karaoke, Prog nights, Make your own Bloody Sundays and some good old fashioned booze during 2-4-1 5-8PM 7 days a week. We love The Gothamist, throw some back!!!
Yours
Molly Franklin
General Manager
Lido Bar
200 Columbia St.
718-858-9322
Red Hook is one of those neighborhoods in this city that will never become much more than it is today.
Unless two things happen, 1) the projects will have to be torn down and 2) The 2nd Ave. subway line will have to be extended to Red Hook with a stop at Atlantic Avenue to get people to the Brooklyn Bridge Park, without tons of tourists/city residents disturbing the quiet streets of Brooklyn Heights. I'm a long-time resident if you were wondering.
South Street Seaport station > Atlantic Ave./BBP station > Red Hook station
Forget light rail, people in this city want the subway nearby. It makes living in this city what it should be, convenient to get around as fast as possible.
No.
You aren't supposed to spend a million dollars for an apartment in Red Hook, Brooklyn or Bushwick or even Williamsburg.
Next time you'll know better.
This may shock you but Brooklyn is a an outer borough,a second choice to living in Manhattan.
People choose to move to the outer boroughs for less expensive housing and larger spaces.
You guys are fucking up the program.
"Hamilton Avenue and the Gowanus Expressway separate the Red Hook peninsula from the rest of Brooklyn"
newer transplants (10 years or less) have been calling Columbia street "Red Hook", cause it sounds cooler than Carroll Gardens, its Carroll Gardens
the real estate speculating in this town is getting ridiculous. I remember the whole Red Hook is "it" talk last year around Memorial day. People were going ga ga over it, saying Brooklyn is the place, BABY!
I for one, am glad this bit those in the ass.
Oh, how much is the water Taxi fare? $10 one way, during peak?
The ball fields will be saved, that appears to be a neighborhood park and then you have your Softball league play.
well don't forget that caroll gardens was merely a relators marketing ploy, as red hook once extended to smith street.
personally i am pleased with the post's hilarious death throes story, maybe now i can afford to stay in the neighborhood and stop wondering where all those new faces at the bait & tackle are coming from.
viva la isolation.
long live the lido, sunnys and the bait and tackle -- if you want to drink where the best bartenders from the old pioneer and sunnys drink (and now work, in the case of the old pioneer) they can be found at the b + t, though the lido and sunnys are all stil worth the trip.
b-burg was not 'reinvented' in one year, having lived there in the 80s when it was a one gallery town, and i am sure red hook will be a big box store-"waterfront living" horror in due time. enjoy it while it still has a few kinks, then whine about the 'back in the day' later. ohnooo, a long commute on the bus, i might have to learn how to read.
A light rail line is way cheaper to build than a subway line and could be built much sooner than a subway line could. Plus it could get into places that subway lines can't and has less of an environmental impact when it is built.
You're right Toby, light rail would be cheaper, have less of an environmental impact and could open sooner. However, it won't take residents of the new luxury condos directly to Manhattan. At least the water taxi gets people across the East River. Easy access to Manhattan is the key here.
I can imagine how bad the traffic down there will be once IKEA opens.
Red Hook Never spread to Smith street, the "hook" refers to the penninsula, that whole area (boccoca as the tourists call it) was simply called "South Brooklyn"...Carroll Gardens was named after Charles Carroll, the only Italian to sign the Deaclaration of Independence. Its been called that easily since the late 60's early 70's.Not sure if a realtor was smart enough to do their research like that, but its been called CG for 30 years at least.
The main problem with Red Hook is that it's way too easy to stay out all night drinking there. You get used to how much the B61 sucks surprisingly quickly, but going to work on a Tuesday morning with a hangover on four hours of sleep is another matter.
The biggest recent loss as far as most of the current residents I know are concerned are is Pioneer. 360 having shuttered is certainly a shame, but Pioneer was for many a cornerstone of the community: It was a fun place to hang out, presented a decent and reasonably priced mid-week food option, and the garden and pool table are sorely missed. What I believe pisses people off most of all though was that the folks who worked hard to make Pioneer what it was deserved better treatment from the ownership.
As was pointed out in the Brooklyn Paper article, it seems that certain Red Hook landlords and investors have bought into the hype about its being the Next Big Neighborhood to such an extent that they're falling over themselves to push out the tenants and businesses that made it hyped in the first place in the hopes of getting something better...
That's a gud thing in my mind ! This is one neighborhood that won't be easy to gentrify ! Which means that the poor folk currently living there will have the chance to say there a little longer . With no direct Subway Routes Red Hook is cut off from the Gentrifying Affect that's occurring all over the Borough ! They can add as many buses as they want to both the B[61], & B[77] routes it's not going to matter . Red Hook is a dead end with no real market for Retail space . The Phrase "Build it & they will come " Doesn't apply here ! Posted by; "Still Not Amused"
I just took a long drive through the streets of Red Hook this afternoon. I hadnt been back there in a very very long time. The overall sense you get is that the area is not even close to changing. I dont know what it is about Red Hook, but you always get the feeling of being isolated out in the middle of nowhere. Its like your in the middle of some surreal dream. I personally love that feeling,as I just love the feeling of getting lost in nowheresville but Im sure some people dont. The housing stock remains very run down with virtually no serious new construction. The streets look exactly the same as they did in the 1970's 80's 90's. The piers and parks are cool and the new businesses are needed. The housing project still remains a problem from what I understand.
I dont know if crime is an issue, I felt totally safe. You dont feel like your in the middle of a ghetto like you do in Bushwick. I dont know what the future hold for Red Hook, but for now, I just dont see the kind of changes we are seeing in North Williamsburg/Greenpoint, not even close.
Needless to say, I am looking forward to the hype finally being over - I am sick of living in fear of my rent being jacked up, or huge condos filled with yuppies going up across the street from my building -