Gothamist: FDNY Sued Over Unfair Hiring Practices

gumbynyhc

Sat, 26 May 2007 11:20:40 -0500

meant to say get a few study guides

gumbynyhc

Sat, 26 May 2007 11:19:41 -0500

it's this simple.. if you know you're going to be taking the test get a few and study for it.. they're out there - in every book store. the only people this test is biased against is stupid people and lazy people who decided not to study. in all actuality it seems the people who agree with this lawsuit are the real racists, they obviously assume minorities are too stupid to pick up a book and study for a test.

wally d

Fri, 25 May 2007 09:04:10 -0500

the question that you used is a great example of how wrong the test is; How can you ask a regular lay person-Duty of a Company Commander?? This Person would have to have already be on the job and this would be a Question for a Cheif's Test.

fzparker

Fri, 25 May 2007 03:18:37 -0500

The question is badly constructed. At teaching college we looked at similar questions in IQ test which also discriminated against minorities. Getting the answer right requires you to be familiar with the discourse of the majority class, to which mainstream education is geared. You need to implicitly know what the tester wants you to answer. As previous posters have noted, the preamble does not indicate the cardinal direction in which the fire occurs. Technically speaking, based on the preamble, any of the other answers could also be right. But, to choose option C, you would need to understand (implicitly) that in mainstream education, the *most descriptive* correct answer is usually preferred. This may seem obvious to people in the mainstream, but to people from minority groups or people with a non-English mother tongue, it is actually quite complex because knowledge of what the tester expects from you is never explicitly taught in schools. This is one of the reasons why educationalists today agree that IQ tests are not a true indication of intelligence. They're biased in favour of the ruling class.

marc

Fri, 25 May 2007 02:57:42 -0500

for all you compass folks -- the question states that the answer is being written on return to the firehouse. you think these guys don't have maps or (gasp) know the city?

johnny

Wed, 23 May 2007 15:40:25 -0500

Pay attention to detail, thats what they teach you in probie school, thats what this question is about detail, basement and corner, because when you cant see your hand in front of your face, paying attention to detail may save your life and the person your trying to get out. As for the guy who's says there are no fires in nyc go look up the numbers, and those fireman you claim are drunks are probally in 10 times better cardio shape then your fat ass. remember dont be mad at me 35 bucks and you can take the test to, if you have a set!!

Bob Loblaw

Wed, 23 May 2007 14:38:04 -0500

the question has two key elements in it. Basement and Corner. the right answer (C) also has two key elements in it: base and corner. brush up on your reading comprehension and start focusing on details, i/e key words.

Mike D

Wed, 23 May 2007 10:35:02 -0500

Brightliner-- I think the personal insult was unnecessary. You want to apologize? The rest of your post was very reasonable. I also looked at the practice test. We can both agree it's poorly phrased. I work with computers. Being exactly accurate is important here, and C would be very very wrong in this field.

sdrumm

Wed, 23 May 2007 00:15:46 -0500

Personally I chose D, because the question didn't give any directional indications other than that the fire was in the rear. I'm currently preparing to take my Graduate Entrance exams so I've gotten pretty good at answering questions like that. But I guess I missed the fact that they missed the corner. Anyway I think the racist accusation has more to do with the fact that less minorities have basements and thus would be more likely to choose lower level. So everyone is most likely missing the point in debating answer C vs. D.

sdrumm

Tue, 22 May 2007 23:59:26 -0500

It could be considered racist because minorities are less likely to own a basement. For example a question on the SAT asking about a regatta(boat race) would also be class/and or race discrimanatory because depending on one's race and class one may not culturally be familiar with a regatta. I'm not sure if that's what they are going to argue, but it sounds like it could be. A black or hispanic applicant may be more likely to chooose lower level in the rear, or south east corner of the lower level.

Brightliner

Tue, 22 May 2007 23:09:10 -0500

Mike D, I'd say the Ivy League is vastly overrated if you are any indication. FDNY and likely other fire departments don't want vague answers in their fire reports. They want as much precise detail as possible. Yes, the answers to this question are badly worded, but when push comes to shove, C is the best choice. The most important words in your post are "potentially wrong." That means it's also potentially right, and if it was, it's far more preferable than D. Again, these tests are terrible and really need to a thorough going-over by a good editor (not unlike Gothamist on a typical day). Take a look at the practice test I mentioned earlier. What the hell kind of question is 1? If you're on site, won't you know instantly by looking which label was most prevalent? And as I already noted, there is no right answer for 6, since the "correct" answer violates the regulation about timely replacement of wet hoses on engines, unless they mean that you can replace the wet hose with another dry hose until Thursday afternoon when you can get the hose from the drying locker. Which makes no sense. If you replace the hose by the end of Wednesday as required, then why replace it again Thursday afternoon just because the hose in the locker is finally ready?

Tex

Tue, 22 May 2007 19:44:12 -0500

Look, you fucking dipshits, the question asks you to choose THE BEST WAY to describe the location. The cardinal direction doesn't matter at all. All you have to do to get the question right is include the two important pieces of information: basement and corner. And I'm Mexican, for Christ's sake! I'd go join the FDNY if I weren't such a fat-ass.

Toby

Tue, 22 May 2007 19:37:13 -0500

I think this is the "Justice" Department trying to deflect attention over the Gonzo scandal.

destination unknown

Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:26 -0500

I thought you used a compass. anyone who's ever taken a civil service exam has seen these type of questions. it's all who you know, and not what you know. as was mentioned on only two posts here.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 18:01:35 -0500

Weird... I'm not an ivy leaguer and it was clear as day for me. Looks like you wasted 200K on your education (I'm kidding). This question has to do with reading comprehension.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 17:41:15 -0500

edEx-- Counting the guy who posted here, and all the people I've strawpolled not a single Ivy Leaguer has gotten this right. Everybody make jokes if you want, but the kind of nuanced answer demanded in that world would not give you answer C. D is ALWAYS right based on the information given. C could potentially be completely wrong -- a more generic answer is better than an incorrect specific answer.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 17:31:13 -0500

you're right it could be any corner. but the question states "a corner" and the A–D answers state "one corner"... if you have any reading comprehension at all you'd see the answer is C. it's not that hard nor does it have anything to do with race. it does however, have everything to do with stupidity which is not racist, just selective.

jd

Tue, 22 May 2007 17:09:57 -0500

What a terrible question (I got this wrong). I still say the most precise answer is "D" given the information that was provided in the question, unless by "precise" the test-makers meant giving possibly incorrect information to sound precise. Saying city X is 3,233 miles south of city Y is precise, I suppose, but rather useless if the person telling you the information has no idea where city Y actually is.

ed pole

Tue, 22 May 2007 16:08:34 -0500

His this turned into FDNY RANT? You mean the FDNY isn't a good ole boy network? thank you for enlightening me, kind sir. down on the corner, playing pick up. oh well, it's down to a test of wills and taxpayer money. The Feds vs. NYC. oh, you can kiss some of that homeland security money and any nomination of your Girlfriend goodbye.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 15:47:48 -0500

From the phrasing of the explanatory paragraph it could be ANY corner. This question is really bad.

leon

Tue, 22 May 2007 15:27:25 -0500

the vulcans are a bunch of liars who get what ever they want. nobody has ever demonstrated that this test is biased. yes the numbers speak for themselves. there a probably many reasons that blacks do not take this test. but the test is basic reading comprehension. the vulcans are saying that blacks are not smart enough to compete with whites on a 5th grade reading level test. the vulcans did not like it when there were rumors of going to a ridiculously easy physical exam, b/c that wouldn't help them. it would help woman though. that had to give the last exam in the afternoon and not in the morning, and have wake up calls for the black candidates. wonder why. the vulcans like to portray the firehouse as a racist group of good ol boys. that is such nonsense. obviously there a some idiots in this job like everywhere else. but it is a place where we get along and work hard. the black ff that said there was a noose on his gear put that there himself and washington knows this. he has bounced all over the city and has been a problem whereever he goes. he is an a-hole and a disgrace.

hello I'm a mak

Tue, 22 May 2007 14:57:17 -0500

touche.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 14:50:45 -0500

regardless, the pole system still works with this equation.

kamping kueen

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:50:52 -0500

So, what do I do with this compass I just bought? darn, I scribbled all the poles on a sheet of paper already.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:44:07 -0500

Vanessa is right. The question states: Q: ...building was two stories in height with a BASEMENT. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one CORNER at the rear of the BASEMENT. The only answer with these two words in it is C) “The fire was located in the southeast CORNER of the BASEMENT.

m keit

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:42:00 -0500

If you listen to firefighters on a scanner, SOP for discriptions is to give compass locations-north, south, etc. Also, a basement is a basement, not a lower level. Also-is this a test AFTER training? If so, they should know basic terminology

iqueen

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:11:25 -0500

you don't want the answer that could mean the most things. then the best description would be: "the fire was somewhere in a building. maybe in a corner." you want the answer that is most exact. and buildings don't change directions, so if you use "southeast," it doesn't matter "what direction the building is facing," which concern, i'm sorry, makes me giggle a bit.

fishtale

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:05:26 -0500

wow, people are breaking this down way too much. just like most questions on the SAT you can ignore everything except the basic prompt- "what is the best way to describe the location of a fire?" FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE. read the 4 answers and pick the one that is most specific...it's C. ok, i just gave the secret of standardized testing away to all minorities. i except national averages to soar

Brightliner

Tue, 22 May 2007 13:03:14 -0500

These exams just aren't well-written. Check a longer practice exam here: www.fireprep.com/25-question_practice_examinati.html There's usually a "good" answer, but often not a "perfect" answer, just like the question quoted in Gothamist. For instance on question 6, you're supposed to wait until Thursday at noon to reuse Monday's hose, but according to regulations, the hose on the truck must be replaced by the beginning of Thursday, so it can't possibly wait until Thursday at noon. Bad choices on the test.

Lawrence E. Quinn Sr.

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:38:33 -0500

Hallelujah,I'm a man and my real name appears I have the ball's to stand behind my comments. It's about time that the FDNY and the City are sued. You have a poor hiring record and an abysmal history. We will see who is laughing at the end.Also since when do rookies (boots) need to know how to fill out fire reports ?

Vanessa

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:32:00 -0500

If it said "lowest level" then we could assume that they were referring to the basement, but the first floor can also be called a loswer level. If I am standing on the second floor, I can very correctly call the first floor "the lower level."

hungry

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:25:19 -0500

One definition of basement is "the lowest or fundamental part of something." By that definition-- and considering the fact that the building only has one lower level-- "basement" and "lower level" are interchangeable. Answer B could also be correct, unless we're PRESUPPOSING that the fire dept. uses those terms differently.

Michael

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:18:15 -0500

Clearly not a racist question... the boss is named Chief Brown (clearly a black guy) and his subordinate is named Captain Green (clearly an Irish guy).

Vanessa

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:18:09 -0500

Mike D, My spelling and grammar also (obviously) sucks.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:15:41 -0500

Vanessa-- I totally agree. I think we would need to see more questions. The articles don't supply enough information to make a conclusion. And, generally speaking, standardized/civil service tests are not the best determinants of job success.

Vanessa

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:07:44 -0500

Mike D, I see what you are saying but, since the question emphasizes finding the exact location, C fits the bill (as it is the most exact). I think it's the most logical answer but, you're right, there is no way to determine the direction of the building. In any case, I don't think this question is racist, but I also don't trust the media. I'd like to hear the plantiff's argument for why the test is racist instead of reading a seemingly random question choosen by the Metro. It is quite possible that the test is racist, but we can't come to that conclusion based on one test question choosen by the Metro (perhaps that Metro has its own opinion on the matter and has constructed the story accordingly - see Fox "News"). I think it's important to ask questions and not jump to conclusions based on poor (and possibly skewed) reporting by the media.

jt

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:06:11 -0500

I'm black, have degrees from Harvard (BA) and Yale (MA) and got it wrong. Or at least D seemed to fit all situations while C might be better or worse depending on the orientation of the building.

Anonymous

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:01:24 -0500

How typical. Something too hard? Sue everyone to dumb it down. This isn't about discrimination this is about defending the right to be stupid.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 12:01:14 -0500

really really bad, like my grammar. On topic: I do think that the problem might not be with the test itself but with the fact that people who have taken the test (i.e. white old boys network) can tell their friends (presumably other white men) how to prepare. If black/latino applicants have fewer connections inside the FDNY they will be less prepared. Of course, this presumes black/latino candidates lack these connections which is not necessarily true.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:55:02 -0500

@Vanessa If you don't know which corner it is and choose (c) you are adding in details that you don't possess, which in a GMAT/LSAT context at least, that would be REALLY, REALLY bad.

justify my luv

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:54:33 -0500

geez, we have compasses, now the process of elimination. anything to justify the acts of a racist city. might as well have a question such as, what day is the Saint Patrick's day parade?

Vanessa

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:47:07 -0500

I can't believe that I am doing this... The question makes perfect sense, you get the answer by process of elmination. "Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement." The question asks for a the exact location of the fire. A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.” This answer is incorrect because the rear is not a an exact location and the fire was in the basement, not the lower level. B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.” This answer is also incorrect because the fire was in the basement, not the lower level. C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.” This answer is correct because it provides a specific, or "exact" location in the basement. It doesn't matter if the corner was located northwest or southeast, we don't need a compass or diagram to choose this answer - the point is that an exact location is provided. D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.” This answer is incorrect because answer C gives a more specific location.

look deeper

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:35:45 -0500

The point of the lawsuit is that there are many questions that would be completely obvious to legacy candidates (those who already have brothers, fathers, uncles etc. in the FDNY) and trickier for folks who have never talked 'shop' with FDNY members. And since, as has already been discussed, the FDNY is overwhelmingly (per the makeup of the city at large) white. The question indeed *seems* to be written badly, since C and D both seem plausible (no ordinal directions were given, and even 'lower floor' and 'basement' seem interchangable). But if you already know something about FDNY procedure, you know the way reports are written and the answer is obvious, on to the next question please. THAT'S the point.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:33:27 -0500

no, you're right a compass isn't used... however, with the question , it's common sense.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:28:00 -0500

@edEx it could just as easily be the southwest, northeast, or northwest corner. it's a bad question.

scott pack

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:24:13 -0500

Odd, I don't see a compass being used as a standard firefighting apparatus. reaching for the moon.

scott pack

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:22:14 -0500

Odd, I don't see a compass being used as a standard firefighting apparatus. reaching for the moon.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:15:04 -0500

with this particular question, it can be assumed the south east is the rear corner. use a scrap piece of paper and set up a compass (north being at the top/front center)

me fuk u long tyme

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:04:00 -0500

thank you, you can stay on your knees. You must be real mature. "HAHAHAHAHAHAH" how bout adding another explanation point? is that all you got?

question righters suck

Tue, 22 May 2007 11:01:13 -0500

Ummm...which direction does the building face? Since the question doesn't indicate, I chose answer D. All this example shows is that the question in question is flawed. Answer C would be the most precise way to word the description in a report assuming you know things that are not provided in the question. I prefer to be safe, assume nothing, and trust no one. Love each other people! Smile on your brother!!

suk mi cup

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:55:10 -0500

The US DOJ is properly represented, the spokesperson was Asian. You logic is awesome! DOJ is properly represented, the Attorney General is Latino. HAHAHAHAHHAAHHAA

bim

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:54:22 -0500

wait a second... how does the test "disproportionately [screen] out large numbers of qualified black and Hispanic applicants"? Does the Vulcan Society provide examples of where this happens in tests? This article should have been researched a bit more. I think we need more information for this debate. does anyone have more info?

suk mi jok strap

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:46:59 -0500

The mayor can go eff himself, I love how he hates to be bullied but does it to others indiscriminately. I'm guessing no one got that test answer right, unless you knew of the exam ahead of time, wink wink. Unless the metro misrepresented the question by not showing a diagram of said building. The US DOJ is properly represented, the spokesperson was Asian.

Mike D

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:44:52 -0500

I'm white and I got it wrong. It's not discriminatory, but it is poorly constructed. Choice (D) makes a lot more sense since the question doesn't tell you the cardinal direction location of the fire.

Big Jim Slade

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:36:40 -0500

It is an all (mostly) white force. TRUE. The test is 'racist'. FALSE. Being a firefighter in NYC is a sweet gig, as there are hardly ANY fires. TOTALLY TRUE. There are HUNDREDS of firefighter DUI's each year in NY, as most firemen drink ALL THE TIME as they are bored adolcecents. TRUE.

Irritated

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:33:16 -0500

"matukonyc: Um.. maybe it's because I'm black, but I got the wrong answer." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh...you were being serious? *ahem* Nevermind...

Peter

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:30:39 -0500

And what about the almost complete lack of women in the FDNY? While paid firefighting is a largely male occupation almost everywhere, New York takes it to an extreme. If I recall correctly, the FDNY is less than 1% female, while most big-city fire departments are around 5%. Minneapolis is the leader at almost 20%.

matukonyc

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:16:02 -0500

Um.. maybe it's because I'm black, but I got the wrong answer. One cannot glean from the test question in which rear corner of the basement the fire was located, so how could one say the best way to describe the location includes either "southeast" or "southwest?" Maybe that's the point -- that the questions make no sense.

timbnyc

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:15:28 -0500

Joke if you want people, but the department has stayed overwhelmingly white and male for a reason. Recall the big fight over placing EMT and fire department personnel in the same bunk room and kitchen in a new facility in Queens - the fire union didn't want that, claiming that there were "cultural differences" between the EMTs and the firefighters, but they would never get more specific. The main difference? Firefighters are white, EMTs are more diverse. The Fire Dept is truly the last bastion of white male privilege and it's an embarrassment to all New Yorkers for that reason.

mb

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:06:16 -0500

I think the DOJ should also go after the organizers of the New York and Boston marathons. The fact that Kenyans dominate the top placings clearly demonstrates that the race routes are set up to disriminate against non-Kenyans.

edEx

Tue, 22 May 2007 10:01:31 -0500

how exactly is this test question discriminatory? oh that's right, it's not.

MT

Tue, 22 May 2007 09:53:01 -0500

I love that Bloomie is standing up to these guys. It sounds totally frivilous. Does anyone know what's really behind all this?

no!

Tue, 22 May 2007 09:43:10 -0500

If this is an example of a test question, the only people being discriminated against are the stupid people. Please FDNY, don't lower the bar on intelligence just to fit some arbitrary ethnic quota!!

Vanessa

Tue, 22 May 2007 08:43:48 -0500

Um. The test question provided by Metro is obviously not easier for one race of people. I'm wondering if the U.S. Department of Justice is being properly represented in the media? What is THEIR example of an unfair test question?

anon

Tue, 22 May 2007 08:36:13 -0500

I figured that out. The complaining firepeople aren't very smart.