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The U.S. Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against the Fire Department, saying that FDNY exams in 1999 and 2002 discriminated against black and Hispanic candidates. Black and HIspanic candidates fail the exam at much higher rates, and currently, the blacks and Hispanics make up only 7.5% of the FDNY's 11,000 firefighters. The NY Times notes that the fire departments of LA and Philadelphia are more than 40% black or Hispanic.
The lawsuit claims the tests "do not accurately determine whether an applicant will be able to perform the job of firefighter" and that the tests "disproportionately [screen] out large numbers of qualified black and Hispanic applicants." This comes as the FDNY has spent the past few years trying to improve its minority hiring, prompting Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta to said, "The only rational order that could come out of this would be for the judge to order us to do what we have already done." Mayor Bloomberg was unhappy with the lawsuit as well, saying, "The Justice Department is wrong, and we'll see 'em in court."
Metro printed one of the test's questions:
While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:The answer is after the jump. The lawsuit was filed by the Vulcan Society, a group of black firefighters (the Vulcan Society's president, John Coombs, said, "It's time at last for the FDNY to be held accountable and it's time for a real significant change.") and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, with help from the Center for Constitutional Rights. Here's a 2002 article from a Columbia Journalism class about a black firefighter fitting into the FDNY.A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”
Update: Reader edEx offered this link to a City Council briefing about minority and women recruitment.
Photograph of Engine Company 5 by Triborough on Flickr
The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."
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I figured that out. The complaining firepeople aren't very smart.
Um. The test question provided by Metro is obviously not easier for one race of people. I'm wondering if the U.S. Department of Justice is being properly represented in the media? What is THEIR example of an unfair test question?
If this is an example of a test question, the only people being discriminated against are the stupid people. Please FDNY, don't lower the bar on intelligence just to fit some arbitrary ethnic quota!!
I love that Bloomie is standing up to these guys. It sounds totally frivilous. Does anyone know what's really behind all this?
how exactly is this test question discriminatory?
oh that's right, it's not.
I think the DOJ should also go after the organizers of the New York and Boston marathons.
The fact that Kenyans dominate the top placings clearly demonstrates that the race routes are set up to disriminate against non-Kenyans.
Joke if you want people, but the department has stayed overwhelmingly white and male for a reason. Recall the big fight over placing EMT and fire department personnel in the same bunk room and kitchen in a new facility in Queens - the fire union didn't want that, claiming that there were "cultural differences" between the EMTs and the firefighters, but they would never get more specific. The main difference? Firefighters are white, EMTs are more diverse. The Fire Dept is truly the last bastion of white male privilege and it's an embarrassment to all New Yorkers for that reason.
Um.. maybe it's because I'm black, but I got the wrong answer.
One cannot glean from the test question in which rear corner of the basement the fire was located, so how could one say the best way to describe the location includes either "southeast" or "southwest?"
Maybe that's the point -- that the questions make no sense.
And what about the almost complete lack of women in the FDNY? While paid firefighting is a largely male occupation almost everywhere, New York takes it to an extreme. If I recall correctly, the FDNY is less than 1% female, while most big-city fire departments are around 5%. Minneapolis is the leader at almost 20%.
"matukonyc: Um.. maybe it's because I'm black, but I got the wrong answer."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh...you were being serious?
*ahem*
Nevermind...
It is an all (mostly) white force. TRUE.
The test is 'racist'. FALSE.
Being a firefighter in NYC is a sweet gig, as there are hardly ANY fires. TOTALLY TRUE.
There are HUNDREDS of firefighter DUI's each year in NY, as most firemen drink ALL THE TIME as they are bored adolcecents.
TRUE.
I'm white and I got it wrong. It's not discriminatory, but it is poorly constructed. Choice (D) makes a lot more sense since the question doesn't tell you the cardinal direction location of the fire.
The mayor can go eff himself, I love how he hates to be bullied but does it to others indiscriminately.
I'm guessing no one got that test answer right, unless you knew of the exam ahead of time, wink wink. Unless the metro misrepresented the question by not showing a diagram of said building.
The US DOJ is properly represented, the spokesperson was Asian.
wait a second...
how does the test "disproportionately [screen] out large numbers of qualified black and Hispanic applicants"? Does the Vulcan Society provide examples of where this happens in tests? This article should have been researched a bit more. I think we need more information for this debate.
does anyone have more info?
The US DOJ is properly represented, the spokesperson was Asian.
You logic is awesome!
DOJ is properly represented, the Attorney General is Latino.
HAHAHAHAHHAAHHAA
Ummm...which direction does the building face?
Since the question doesn't indicate, I chose answer D.
All this example shows is that the question in question is flawed.
Answer C would be the most precise way to word the description in a report assuming you know things that are not provided in the question. I prefer to be safe, assume nothing, and trust no one.
Love each other people! Smile on your brother!!
thank you, you can stay on your knees.
You must be real mature. "HAHAHAHAHAHAH"
how bout adding another explanation point?
is that all you got?
with this particular question, it can be assumed the south east is the rear corner. use a scrap piece of paper and set up a compass (north being at the top/front center)
Odd, I don't see a compass being used as a standard firefighting apparatus.
reaching for the moon.
Odd, I don't see a compass being used as a standard firefighting apparatus.
reaching for the moon.
@edEx
it could just as easily be the southwest, northeast, or northwest corner. it's a bad question.
no, you're right a compass isn't used... however, with the question , it's common sense.
The point of the lawsuit is that there are many questions that would be completely obvious to legacy candidates (those who already have brothers, fathers, uncles etc. in the FDNY) and trickier for folks who have never talked 'shop' with FDNY members. And since, as has already been discussed, the FDNY is overwhelmingly (per the makeup of the city at large) white. The question indeed *seems* to be written badly, since C and D both seem plausible (no ordinal directions were given, and even 'lower floor' and 'basement' seem interchangable). But if you already know something about FDNY procedure, you know the way reports are written and the answer is obvious, on to the next question please. THAT'S the point.
I can't believe that I am doing this...
The question makes perfect sense, you get the answer by process of elmination.
"Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement."
The question asks for a the exact location of the fire.
A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
This answer is incorrect because the rear is not a an exact location and the fire was in the basement, not the lower level.
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
This answer is also incorrect because the fire was in the basement, not the lower level.
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
This answer is correct because it provides a specific, or "exact" location in the basement. It doesn't matter if the corner was located northwest or southeast, we don't need a compass or diagram to choose this answer - the point is that an exact location is provided.
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”
This answer is incorrect because answer C gives a more specific location.
geez,
we have compasses, now the process of elimination.
anything to justify the acts of a racist city.
might as well have a question such as, what day is the Saint Patrick's day parade?
@Vanessa
If you don't know which corner it is and choose (c) you are adding in details that you don't possess, which in a GMAT/LSAT context at least, that would be REALLY, REALLY bad.
really really bad, like my grammar.
On topic: I do think that the problem might not be with the test itself but with the fact that people who have taken the test (i.e. white old boys network) can tell their friends (presumably other white men) how to prepare. If black/latino applicants have fewer connections inside the FDNY they will be less prepared. Of course, this presumes black/latino candidates lack these connections which is not necessarily true.
How typical. Something too hard? Sue everyone to dumb it down.
This isn't about discrimination this is about defending the right to be stupid.
I'm black, have degrees from Harvard (BA) and Yale (MA) and got it wrong. Or at least D seemed to fit all situations while C might be better or worse depending on the orientation of the building.
Mike D,
I see what you are saying but, since the question emphasizes finding the exact location, C fits the bill (as it is the most exact). I think it's the most logical answer but, you're right, there is no way to determine the direction of the building.
In any case, I don't think this question is racist, but I also don't trust the media. I'd like to hear the plantiff's argument for why the test is racist instead of reading a seemingly random question choosen by the Metro. It is quite possible that the test is racist, but we can't come to that conclusion based on one test question choosen by the Metro (perhaps that Metro has its own opinion on the matter and has constructed the story accordingly - see Fox "News").
I think it's important to ask questions and not jump to conclusions based on poor (and possibly skewed) reporting by the media.
Vanessa--
I totally agree. I think we would need to see more questions. The articles don't supply enough information to make a conclusion. And, generally speaking, standardized/civil service tests are not the best determinants of job success.
Mike D,
My spelling and grammar also (obviously) sucks.
Clearly not a racist question... the boss is named Chief Brown (clearly a black guy) and his subordinate is named Captain Green (clearly an Irish guy).
One definition of basement is "the lowest or fundamental part of something." By that definition-- and considering the fact that the building only has one lower level-- "basement" and "lower level" are interchangeable. Answer B could also be correct, unless we're PRESUPPOSING that the fire dept. uses those terms differently.
If it said "lowest level" then we could assume that they were referring to the basement, but the first floor can also be called a loswer level. If I am standing on the second floor, I can very correctly call the first floor "the lower level."
Hallelujah,I'm a man and my real name appears I have the ball's to stand behind my comments. It's about time that the FDNY and the City are sued. You have a poor hiring record and an abysmal history. We will see who is laughing at the end.Also since when do rookies (boots) need to know how to fill out fire reports ?
These exams just aren't well-written. Check a longer practice exam here:
www.fireprep.com/25-question_practice_examinati.html
There's usually a "good" answer, but often not a "perfect" answer, just like the question quoted in Gothamist. For instance on question 6, you're supposed to wait until Thursday at noon to reuse Monday's hose, but according to regulations, the hose on the truck must be replaced by the beginning of Thursday, so it can't possibly wait until Thursday at noon. Bad choices on the test.
wow, people are breaking this down way too much. just like most questions on the SAT you can ignore everything except the basic prompt-
"what is the best way to describe the location of a fire?" FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE. read the 4 answers and pick the one that is most specific...it's C. ok, i just gave the secret of standardized testing away to all minorities. i except national averages to soar
you don't want the answer that could mean the most things. then the best description would be: "the fire was somewhere in a building. maybe in a corner."
you want the answer that is most exact. and buildings don't change directions, so if you use "southeast," it doesn't matter "what direction the building is facing," which concern, i'm sorry, makes me giggle a bit.
If you listen to firefighters on a scanner, SOP for discriptions is to give compass locations-north, south, etc. Also, a basement is a basement, not a lower level.
Also-is this a test AFTER training? If so, they should know basic terminology
Vanessa is right.
The question states:
Q: ...building was two stories in height with a BASEMENT. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one CORNER at the rear of the BASEMENT.
The only answer with these two words in it is C) “The fire was located in the southeast CORNER of the BASEMENT.
So, what do I do with this compass I just bought?
darn, I scribbled all the poles on a sheet of paper already.
regardless, the pole system still works with this equation.
touche.
the vulcans are a bunch of liars who get what ever they want.
nobody has ever demonstrated that this test is biased. yes the numbers speak for themselves. there a probably many reasons that blacks do not take this test. but the test is basic reading comprehension. the vulcans are saying that blacks are not smart enough to compete with whites on a 5th grade reading level test.
the vulcans did not like it when there were rumors of going to a ridiculously easy physical exam, b/c that wouldn't help them. it would help woman though.
that had to give the last exam in the afternoon and not in the morning, and have wake up calls for the black candidates. wonder why.
the vulcans like to portray the firehouse as a racist group of good ol boys. that is such nonsense. obviously there a some idiots in this job like everywhere else. but it is a place where we get along and work hard.
the black ff that said there was a noose on his gear put that there himself and washington knows this. he has bounced all over the city and has been a problem whereever he goes. he is an a-hole and a disgrace.
From the phrasing of the explanatory paragraph it could be ANY corner. This question is really bad.
His this turned into FDNY RANT?
You mean the FDNY isn't a good ole boy network?
thank you for enlightening me, kind sir.
down on the corner, playing pick up.
oh well, it's down to a test of wills and taxpayer money. The Feds vs. NYC.
oh, you can kiss some of that homeland security money and any nomination of your Girlfriend goodbye.
What a terrible question (I got this wrong). I still say the most precise answer is "D" given the information that was provided in the question, unless by "precise" the test-makers meant giving possibly incorrect information to sound precise.
Saying city X is 3,233 miles south of city Y is precise, I suppose, but rather useless if the person telling you the information has no idea where city Y actually is.
you're right it could be any corner.
but the question states "a corner" and the A–D answers state "one corner"... if you have any reading comprehension at all you'd see the answer is C.
it's not that hard nor does it have anything to do with race. it does however, have everything to do with stupidity which is not racist, just selective.
edEx--
Counting the guy who posted here, and all the people I've strawpolled not a single Ivy Leaguer has gotten this right. Everybody make jokes if you want, but the kind of nuanced answer demanded in that world would not give you answer C. D is ALWAYS right based on the information given. C could potentially be completely wrong -- a more generic answer is better than an incorrect specific answer.
Weird... I'm not an ivy leaguer and it was clear as day for me. Looks like you wasted 200K on your education (I'm kidding).
This question has to do with reading comprehension.
I thought you used a compass.
anyone who's ever taken a civil service exam has seen these type of questions.
it's all who you know, and not what you know.
as was mentioned on only two posts here.
I think this is the "Justice" Department trying to deflect attention over the Gonzo scandal.
Look, you fucking dipshits, the question asks you to choose THE BEST WAY to describe the location. The cardinal direction doesn't matter at all. All you have to do to get the question right is include the two important pieces of information: basement and corner. And I'm Mexican, for Christ's sake! I'd go join the FDNY if I weren't such a fat-ass.
Mike D,
I'd say the Ivy League is vastly overrated if you are any indication. FDNY and likely other fire departments don't want vague answers in their fire reports. They want as much precise detail as possible. Yes, the answers to this question are badly worded, but when push comes to shove, C is the best choice. The most important words in your post are "potentially wrong." That means it's also potentially right, and if it was, it's far more preferable than D.
Again, these tests are terrible and really need to a thorough going-over by a good editor (not unlike Gothamist on a typical day). Take a look at the practice test I mentioned earlier. What the hell kind of question is 1? If you're on site, won't you know instantly by looking which label was most prevalent? And as I already noted, there is no right answer for 6, since the "correct" answer violates the regulation about timely replacement of wet hoses on engines, unless they mean that you can replace the wet hose with another dry hose until Thursday afternoon when you can get the hose from the drying locker. Which makes no sense. If you replace the hose by the end of Wednesday as required, then why replace it again Thursday afternoon just because the hose in the locker is finally ready?
It could be considered racist because minorities are less likely to own a basement. For example a question on the SAT asking about a regatta(boat race) would also be class/and or race discrimanatory because depending on one's race and class one may not culturally be familiar with a regatta. I'm not sure if that's what they are going to argue, but it sounds like it could be. A black or hispanic applicant may be more likely to chooose lower level in the rear, or south east corner of the lower level.
Personally I chose D, because the question didn't give any directional indications other than that the fire was in the rear. I'm currently preparing to take my Graduate Entrance exams so I've gotten pretty good at answering questions like that. But I guess I missed the fact that they missed the corner. Anyway I think the racist accusation has more to do with the fact that less minorities have basements and thus would be more likely to choose lower level. So everyone is most likely missing the point in debating answer C vs. D.
Brightliner--
I think the personal insult was unnecessary. You want to apologize? The rest of your post was very reasonable. I also looked at the practice test. We can both agree it's poorly phrased.
I work with computers. Being exactly accurate is important here, and C would be very very wrong in this field.
the question has two key elements in it. Basement and Corner.
the right answer (C) also has two key elements in it: base and corner.
brush up on your reading comprehension and start focusing on details, i/e key words.
Pay attention to detail, thats what they teach you in probie school, thats what this question is about detail, basement and corner, because when you cant see your hand in front of your face, paying attention to detail may save your life and the person your trying to get out. As for the guy who's says there are no fires in nyc go look up the numbers, and those fireman you claim are drunks are probally in 10 times better cardio shape then your fat ass. remember dont be mad at me 35 bucks and you can take the test to, if you have a set!!
for all you compass folks --
the question states that the answer is being written on return to the firehouse. you think these guys don't have maps or (gasp) know the city?
The question is badly constructed. At teaching college we looked at similar questions in IQ test which also discriminated against minorities. Getting the answer right requires you to be familiar with the discourse of the majority class, to which mainstream education is geared. You need to implicitly know what the tester wants you to answer. As previous posters have noted, the preamble does not indicate the cardinal direction in which the fire occurs. Technically speaking, based on the preamble, any of the other answers could also be right. But, to choose option C, you would need to understand (implicitly) that in mainstream education, the *most descriptive* correct answer is usually preferred. This may seem obvious to people in the mainstream, but to people from minority groups or people with a non-English mother tongue, it is actually quite complex because knowledge of what the tester expects from you is never explicitly taught in schools. This is one of the reasons why educationalists today agree that IQ tests are not a true indication of intelligence. They're biased in favour of the ruling class.
the question that you used is a great example of how wrong the test is; How can you ask a regular lay person-Duty of a Company Commander?? This Person would have to have already be on the job and this would be a Question for a Cheif's Test.
it's this simple.. if you know you're going to be taking the test get a few and study for it.. they're out there - in every book store. the only people this test is biased against is stupid people and lazy people who decided not to study. in all actuality it seems the people who agree with this lawsuit are the real racists, they obviously assume minorities are too stupid to pick up a book and study for a test.
meant to say get a few study guides
Does anyone ever stop and think about this: maybe the reason there aren't more black and hispanic firefighters is that maybe more blacks and hispanics just don't want the job? Being a firefighter is a traditionally Irish profession. That isnt based on racism, it is just a fact. Throwing around erroneous and unfounded accusations of racism and bias is irresponsible, and in this case, dangerous. The law suit filed by the government opens the door for the FDNY, and fire departments across the nation, to be accused of being racially biased. What happens when a white firefighter can't make it to a minority person in time in a fire and they die? With racism being thrown around so much and without just cause, people will begin to focus on race in every situation. In what way, shape, or form was that test question racist? Since when did directions on a compass and the word "basement" involve race? You have to be a white Irish Catholic to know where the basement is? Grow up. The only statistics offered were how many minorities, what percentage, end up passing the exam and being hired compared to whites. Where are the statistics showing how many minorities even take the test in the first place? Fewer minorities take the test! Of course few minorities will be hired! That's the definition of "minority", there are fewer of them! If someone wants to be a firefighter, they go out, buy the test prep book, get in shape, and go take the written/physical exams. Everyone takes the same damn test. Enough of this nonsense. I wonder if the staff from the DOL that filed this lawsuit would be so quick to be hateful and accusing if their house was on fire and they were trapped inside....I bet they'd have a different outlook and opinion then.