Gothamist: NYC's Top High Schools Racial Makeup Dissected

f.d.

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:18:23 -0500

THe argument that the shsat discriminates against black culture is total BS. Well maybe not total bs but I'm very sorry if your culture focuses on gangsterness and bling bling, and turns a blind eye to studying there's nothing we can do about it. Blacks scream about how they don't have access to test prep material, but those test prep books are right in the public libraries. Maybe instead of spendin 500$ on a nice ipod or a pair of sneakers that money could be spent on a tutor. And that whole shebang about ebonics being part of black culture, and therefore relevant to being taught in school is bullshit. Well why don't immigrants ask to be taught in their own languages, or in english with their accents? It's part of their culture isn't it? Because the national language of america is english, plain normal english, and ebonics and redneck english are supposed to be spoken on the street and dropped in school.

EIAb

Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:58:42 -0500

There are 3 common arguments that are repeated over and over about why the specialized high schools are actually institutional racism. And all of them are total piles BS and I will prove it with my inside knowledge of Stuyvesant. 1. somewhere along the lines of "blacks and hispanics are not told about the entrance test" I'd estimate that 30% of the kids at stuy come from "prestigious" schools like mark twain where according to all these "activists" everyone is rich and privileged and has access to test taking materials. So what about the other 70%? Are you telling me that the administrators at these schools are informing the asians and whites when the blacks and hispanics aren't looking? I personally found out about the test a week after i moved to NYC and my mother did some quick research about the education system. Anyone who is willing can do it, not knowing about the test is not a valid excuse. 2. blacks and hispanics dont have access to test prep All these prep courses are really overhyped, all they do is spit out the stuff thats in the prep book, which you can find in the library. A private one on one tutor might make a difference, but i'd say less than 5% of the kids at Stuy have gotten one. To study for the test, go to the library, check out a book on SHSAT, and read through it a couple times. If black and hispanic parents really cared about their children's education, then tutor them yourself, like asian parents do. Kayan Clarke posted a sentence above "I have been to Asia, in fact, working as an English teacher in China. Although I am no expert, Chinese students whose families are immigrating here generally received a superior education in math and sciences than the kids in New York City's public schools as well as English as a core subject as early as kindergarten." Damn right you aren't an expert. The parents of the kids getting into stuy didn't get this great education that you're talking about. When the parents in question were in school, China was going through the "great leap forward" really a huge gigantic leap backwards where food not education was the main concern. Korea was rebuilding from the Korean war, and Japan was recovering from the massive WWII bombing. In China they were still going by the 2 kingdom system where fungi were classified as plants and bacteria were classified as animals. 3. Oh this is my favorite argument "the test is biased against the poor, which are mostly black/hispanic" The most common argument here is that the test has stuff like sailing and golf or something that only the rich have experienced, so only they can answer questions about it. The major nationalities are chinese, korean, russian/ukrainian, and bengali. 70%+ of these kids are immigrants or their parents are immigrants. And most of them have never gone sailing or golfing, because we live in NYC where there are no places to do that, and because most people don't have that much leisure time to do that. Questions about camping or golf give you information about them, outside information won't help you, because it's not an essay! And there are just as many questions about basketball and many more about civil rights (all these racist white people setting up these racist tests for themselves clearly know nothing about that) than golfing, camping and sailing. The second argument for this is that the test is scored wierd, where getting one section very well and doing mediocre on the other will get you in, whiel doing well on both will not. This refutes the first argument, because then you can now afford to get the camping/golf/sailing questions wrong, and just do the math. Don't tell me that only the rich are exposed to math too. Remember CCNY? How it used to be one of the best, with names like public harvard, poor man's harvard... What happened? Now it's just a slightly above average CUNY with a tiny honors program as it's last shred of prestige. Oh i remember, all these "activists" screamed and kicked and bit until CCNY installed an affirmative action program. They claimed that the program would be there until the city could prove that CCNY was admitting students fairly, but after it was installed it was forgotten about and is still there today. Why are the UC (in california) schools so much better than the CUNY and SUNY schools? Because the UC schools never endorsed affirmative action, and have now done away with it completely. There are 4 or 5 UC schools in the top 40, i'd be surprised if even one CUNY or SUNY was in the top 80. Even if Stuyvesant maintained it's standards after affirmative action was installed, what makes you think these kids getting in the easy way would succeed? If you lure a wolf into a dog training school, I'd bet my life it would just start attacking the dogs (similar to getting into fights at school) or run away (drop out) before it learned to fetch, rollover and beg.

yellow__man

Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:21:04 -0500

Education and the approach to education begins at home. Asians understand that in order to get ahead in this country, education needs to be a priority. Blacks try to "work the system" to their advantage. The "system" allows blacks to be lazy and still survive. Blacks are still waiting for their "40 acres and a mule" from the US government. You can blame successful blacks (athletes, rappers, etc...) for playing a part in black youth shunning education. After all, you don't need an education to dunk a basketball or drop some "ryhmes." Black athletes and entertainers glorify their lifestyles - "bling bling" - "th-thong th-thong thong thong" - any of that sound familiar? Ask a little black kid what he wants to be when he grows up. I bet 10 out of 10 times it will either be a rapper or professional athlete. Ask an Asian kid what he wants to be. "Doctor", "lawyer", those are some of the answers you'll hear. Brainwashed by their parents? Maybe, but that just shows you the kind of emphasis that Asians, both young and old, put on education. Blacks are lucky if they even know who their real parents are. Go ahead, call me racist. The truth hurts. The first step to the cure is admitting that there is a problem. The more Al Sharpton talks, the further back he sets the black people. Listen to what Bill Cosby said about blacks. He knows what's up and isn't afraid to say what is on the minds of all people. Black people need to start helping themselves before they look to the "system" to help them. "Ebonics" "Black English" That's bullshit. Explain to me how a non-English speaking immigrant can come to this country and learn to speak English properly, but blacks that are born and raised here speak like imbeciles? Why do blacks from Africa hate American Blacks? American Blacks are lazy and give recent African immigrants a bad name. I vote to do away with affirmative action and do as the NYC specialized schools do. Only the qualified get to move ahead in life. If blacks want to move up in the world, go to school and get an education like the rest of us. Keep minimum wage where it is. Why give people a free $2 raise? I say if you don't like making minimum wage, then go to school and better yourself. Give people a reason to want to get out of a bad situation. The government shouldn't have to bail out lazy people. If you can't make ends meet making minimum wage, then get a second job that pays minimum wage. Got kids to support? Well, you probably should have thought of that before you got pregnant or impregnated a girl. Some people are reading this saying, "We all make mistakes..." Whatever... deal with your situation the best you can. If that involves taking 2 jobs to put yourself through community college, then do it. Stop making excuses. I, too, made minimum wage once. In high school. That's when I realized that if I didn't want to make minimum wage the rest of my life, I'd have to get edumucated. Sadly, black people never come to that realization. They just want everything handed to them. I heard this black person on the streets of NYC proclaiming that "in order to get ahead in this country, you need to lie, cheat, and steal." THIS my friends is the black way of thinking. Until blacks take care of their business at home, there's no use in blaming "institutional racism" or whatever. Just hit the books, work hard, and move up in life just like the rest of us.

W D

Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:29:20 -0500

I'm an African American graduate of Brooklyn Tech. To the Hunter College HS grad who said, "Brooklyn Tech is not even a good regular HS, much less one of the 3 best in the city", you don't know what the hell you're taking about. Read the NYS Department of Ed High School Report Card for Tech and then try to support your weak argument. Even a snob like you can learn to think more intelligently by backing your argument with sound statistics. Also, other than your association with Hunter, it is indeed a great school. As for why less blacks and hispanics are attending specialized high schools has to do with the lack of seriousness about education within our respective communities in general as well as the emphasis on minority role models in sports and music who are "getting paid" (especially in rap/hip hop). Many of us are more interested in what we're wearing, what sneakers we have on and our street cred and social respectability than in getting a good education. Unfortunately there is no street-based esteem points given based on hitting the books in many of our neighborhoods. Those kids who do hit the books are treated as different and often feel isolated as a result.

Ying

Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:40:48 -0500

I agree. I'm in Stuyvesant and it's true that it's 50% Asians, about 30% Caucasian, with a pretty small amount of Black/Hispanics. But really, is it because our school is racist? No one here cares about ethnicity or anything else. We accept each other, we'll be friends with anyone, and that's it. A lot of the Asians get into the school because their parents are crazy. Many of them have gone to Saturday schools for prep, or their parents make them study extra hard. They get a lot of pressure from their parents to do well and get into the school. It's not about racism. There's no way the test is racist.

sonia

Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:52:07 -0500

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Sir Deurr

Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:56:06 -0500

Er, let's quit beating around the bush here - we see this racial stratification all over the world...because the IQ ladder goes like: East Asians Whites Latinos Blacks We can no longer afford to deny this reality and sandbag all the smart kids with intellectual Communism. Right now, we are already outsourcing all our high-IQ work to Asians...who are smarter and work harder. That's the facts as shown by our free market economy - not a bunch of liberal BS artists. Let's just let water seek its own damn level for once...cuz it will anyways no matter how you try to manipulate it.

Tali

Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:39:21 -0500

To Kayan: Most Asian kids at those schools are Asian American, not immigrants or 'parachute kids'. I don't even think non-citizens are eligible to apply to those schools. Therefore they would not have been exposed to the education system in Asia. The average Chinese American (for example) per capita income is $10,000, and a lot of Asian kids grow up in the slums. Stereotype threat, cultural differences, racism, and such-and-such are the cause of ethnic disparities BUT........ Sensationalization of educational statistics is not going to get us anywhere unless we deal with the REAL problem i.e. racism. I don't know why the heck some Asian kids do well, I know I sure didn't and I grew up respectably working class. I knew plenty of Black and Latino kids who went to those schools. Maybe But I do know no matter what educational level we have, Asian people (and African Americans, and Latinos, and Native Americans) earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than whites in the same positions. (Especially Asian American men, as some believe civil rights only extend to other groups.) I believe that THIS is a more insidious disparity than some bullshit with high schools (especially since high school and undergraduate degrees don't count for jack. My crappy state university is jam-packed with Bronxies/Stuy people as well as those of us who attended the School of Hard Knocks, Inebriated Street-Racing, Aerosol Inhalation, and Racially-Based Gang Warfare. Today's assignment: go read about the Model Minority myth, stereotype threat, white flight (about the declining amount of whites at these schools), and the increasing underrepresentation of Asian Americans in REAL life- not high school- situations (as professors, celebrities, writers, creators of cultural capital, capitalists...)

Jake

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:59:32 -0500

> maybe because racism is not a white vs * thing. True, but the key word is "institutionalized" racism. And until minorities are the ones in power, institutionalized racism is a white vs * thing.

Kayan Clarke

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:51:43 -0500

btw, biggups to my former sixth grade student, melanie tirado, quoted in the article. i knew you'd make it into stuy. wasn't that hard, was it, sweetheart? kick their asses, and hope to see you at some bryn mawr or yale alumni dinners. you go girlfriend!!!

Kayan Clarke

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:44:59 -0500

P.S. Samantha T. A thinking stuy graduate and a legal mind would have appreciated that a minority kid from a poor neighborhood felt compelled to count the number of words he couldn't understand in the first pages of To Kill a Mockingbird, but then again, nuance and subtlety don't seem to be your forte. Maybe you should return to take some classes with Frank McCourt and brush up on your skills with language and empathy?

Kayan Clarke

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:17:22 -0500

As an African-American and graduate of Bronx Science class of '98, it is interesting to me that some of our so-called "high-achievers" have such a difficult time understanding the insidious ways insitutionalized racism works in practically all aspects of education. In turn, they seem to suggest the simplistic racist argument that Asians and Whites are just smarter and work harder. First of all, immigrants who come here are hardly ever so poor that they were not receiving an adequate education in their home countries. I have been to Asia, in fact, working as an English teacher in China. Although I am no expert, Chinese students whose families are immigrating here generally received a superior education in math and sciences than the kids in New York City's public schools as well as English as a core subject as early as kindergarten. The question is: Why are we educating Black and Latino children so poorly at home? Black and Latinos do make up the vast majority of New York City's public school students. Demographics at schools like Bronx Science and Stuyvesant are a testament to the failure of the city and the nation as a whole to educate students who can compete in a globalized market in the 21st century. Furthermore, the fact that these schools are dominated by students from certain neighborhoods (i.e. Riverdale in the Bronx)testifies to the economic desparities that continue to disenfranchise kids who should be benefitting from this so-called meritocracy. The solution? Well, not as simple as the lazy-ass-it's-just-these-kids-and their-families-are-stupid approach. It means that people care enough about this nation and our city's school in particular to get involved. It seems that most of us look the cold hard truth in the face: Racism is alive and well in America big time, and it is going to cost us. Very soon these Chinese kids won't be coming to the U.S. for an education and opportunities, and we (blacks, Latinos, Asians, and whites who are the product of American schooling) won't be prepped to compete. Believe me, Black and Latino kids won't be the only ones getting the short end of the stick in American education. Soon enough we'll discover that, oh yeah, I knew we should have done something about that education problem.

Deon Darlington

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:22:53 -0500

As a junior high school teacher and a Brooklyn Tech Alum, the fact that less minority students attend the specialized high schools is a product of institutionalized racism. The students in the poorer neighborhoods and school districts are left unaware of the exam unless it is pursued by individual teachers like myself. Accordingly, these exams are structured in a manner of which the essays are culturally structured for students whom have experienced things that many inner city students are not fortuned to have experienced as well i.e camping, fishing, tennis. This may seem simple to some but reading a 500-word essay about someone going camping instead of an essay about someone going to the park to play basketball is a big difference, and it is reflected in the results of the exams.

Recharger

Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:16:35 -0500

Couple of things: Blacks and Hispanics in the poorer nabes don't apply to the specialized high schools because they don't know about the test (see ACORN's Educational Apartheid from a few years back) The test itself is weirdly scored. As documented in earlier Times articles, someone who scores in the 99 percentile in math, but in the 65 percentile in English will get in over someone who scores in the 97 percentile in both. Explain that. Asians and Russians--for whatever reasons--are better at math. Just as many Asian kids go to Chinese school on Saturday (instilling a certain academic ethic, I believe), many Russian kids go to math school on week nights. Black kids, for various reasons, don't want to go to highly academic schools with a miniscule black population. See black Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer's studies.

Dahlia

Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:24:53 -0500

just for reference, at hunter everything is based on a test, but there are lower requirements for acceptance if you come from an underprivileged background (which i believe is not actually based on race, but economic background). in addition, since it is a lab school, the elementary school enrollment follows strict racial quotas, i.e. 25 girls, 25 boys, 5 black, 5 asian, etc, and they all get in to the high school automatically. I think a lot has to do with whether students are pushed to take the entrance exams, or even know that options for high school exist.

abc alum sis

Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:44:48 -0500

Though ABC is a good program, you cannot compare those schools to the likes of Stuy and Bx Sci. Those schools do not need an exam to get it. Those schools are full of blue bloods and foreign students where daddy can afford to send their kids to the USA for schooling. As the poster mentioned above, STuy, bx sci are the only schools where everyone is equal. The exam makes it that way. It's not like the ABC schools where daddy can write a check to the alumni assoc and get buffy in. NO way ABC school students are as smart as Stuy or Bx Sci. How many westinghouse winners do they have? you know I speak the truth. look it up.

I Am Not Star Jones

Sun, 20 Aug 2006 03:04:22 -0500

umm.. do all asians have this so called super duper work ethic? has anyone posting actually been to asia? And is anyone posting a parent of a kid considering NY high schools, specialized or not? I would love to hear from other parents in places like Morningside Heights, Brownsville, Queens Village, East New York, Mott Haven, Co-op City, Roslyn, Park Slope, Washington Heights or Bay Ridge about their different methods of preparing their kids for choosing a high school. I'm sure there will be varying degrees of preparation in their stories that can be attributed to more than race. Also organizations such as A Better Chance which recruit, identify and develop leaders among young people of color and assist them with placement in prep schools may be pulling a lot of students away from Stuy, BHS and Brooklyn Tech. Just my thoughts.

b

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:31:18 -0500

studying more doesn't mean smarter - i can certainly see asians as people who work harder, most of the parents seem to be the ones running those 24 hour delis or dry cleaners in the city

assholier than thou

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:26:45 -0500

these about the superior "asian work ethic" comments are indicative of the dangers of the specialized high school system. these kids are so impressed with how smart they are and are seduced by the trappings that the praise and access gives them that its so hard to see that it is even possible that other people can have different factors surrounding them that conspire against their success. the asian culture is beautiful thing. dont cheapen it by using it to put others down either overtly or by suggesting that other cultures dont have comparable values.

sangyulbae

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:11:34 -0500

I really resent all this "Asian kids studied more" crap. I almost never studied and still got into HCHS. And how can you think Asians as a group are smarter? Don't any of you remember the awful black pants/white socks combos the kids wore back in the day.

Rorshach

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:38:58 -0500

Yeah, I like how everybody's saying asian kids got outside tutoring. No, we didn't. we just read the book a couple more times than you.

Amazing Jason

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:11:17 -0500

The real world is competitive. The competition to attend the best high schools and colleges, and acquire the best jobs is intensely fierce. And from my own personal experience, the success of the Asian kids in this system has alot to with parenting style, family structure, and culture. Many Asian parents place tremendous pressure on their kids to get good grades and to get into good schools, sometimes to the extent of hurting them socially or in well-roundedness. To fail, drop out, or not meet their expectations is disrespectful, and bringing down the family's name and status. This attitude is pervasive amongst Asian kids, parents and families, and so it fosters that culture of competitiveness, hard work, and excelling academically. Not everyone can handle the pressure, and I'm sure some fail due to depression or institutionalized racism (less assistance for poor or slower Asian kids because they're the model minority) or if they have success, they have to branch out on their own without their family's support. In my personal experience, my parents were extremely strict during my childhood about going out to play or with whom I interacted with because we lived in a bad Queens neighborhood. Everyday, I had to come home and do my homework before I could do anything else (such as watch TV). My dad also forced me to do extra work beyond the grade level I was at. Other Asian kids I knew had to attend Chinese school on top of elementary/middle school. Nobody I knew took outside tutoring; most everyone I knew just did well in school and got in on their own. And once you get into a specialized school like Hunter or Stuy, the academic competition gets even more insane; there is no comparison. The truth is anyone can get accepted into a good high school. Everyone has academic potential, and can apply for the same tests and the same schools. Even if you don't get into a specialized school, you can still make the best of where you're at. But there's no substitute for parental involvement and work ethic.

Mike

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:51:00 -0500

Thank you cate! Trust me, Samantha T, there's nothing pompous in saying that Stuyvesant is filled with the smartest and most driven group of people FROM TOP TO BOTTOM i've ever been around. In fact, it's more of a commentary on the lack of quality of my (and all, I suppose) college. Most people would assume a top 10 university in terms of admission standards would have amazingly bright students...but VERY OFTEN that is far from true. There's a million reasons one can get into the Harvards of the world. There is ONLY ONE way to get into Stuy. Not going to harp on that any longer. Aside from that, lots of interesting stuff on here. Good job, folks :)

cate

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:07:58 -0500

Samantha T: ""I can't imagine a greater collection of intellect and drive than at Stuyvesant (including the Harvards of the world)" Please, please stop. Seriously. We all know that you took a test when you were 14 and got into an extremely competitive public school in NYC. We get it. That it's public doesn't make your statement any less frigging pompous." I actually took the test when I was 12. And just cause it's pompous does not mean it's not somewhat true. I mean this in the least stuck up way possible, but until you went to some place like Stuy for four years yourself, you honestly don't have any idea what it's like in that kind of environment, no matter what your friends told you. And what the original poster said is true... I have yet to be surrounded by so many smart people attending the same school, in part because people were taken in purely on academic merit and not anything esle. I like the idea of the test, and I do think it is a good measure of who can get into the school. For instance, that Yusrullah kid from the article... his english teacher called him a "walking dictionary", yet in the first few pages of 'To Kill a Mockingbird" he's already found SEVENTY ONE words he didn't know? And this kid is supposed to deal with Stuy? Until public schooling is up to snuff with QUALIFIED teachers in the k-8 level, we cannot use grades and extra-cirrics as extrance in to Stuy simply (and unfortunately) because the administrators at some of these schools couldn't get into Stuy themselves. I don't see how "leveling out the playing field" could be served by bringing a school down. Instead of making Stuy easier to get into, they should bring K-8 up to speed and make it so that most any kid from any school can have a chance in getting in, as the relatively "pompous" commenter from Hunter High mentioned. And I'm sorry, that bullshit "middle class white kids have the money for private tutoring" excuse is a load of horseshit. Why is the asian % shooting up so high? I sincerely doubt that so many first generation or asian immigrant kids have 3 grand sitting around idly for private tutoring. I also take offense to that because the case could be made that I had less of a hard time getting into Stuy because I'm white, and I therefore deserved my place there less. Never mind that I came from a lower income family from a crappy neighborhood with parents who didn't even speak english, much less understand what a "special" high school was. Things need to be done to address the quality of education available to all people, but opening the doors for absoultely everyone to wants to go anywhere is NOT the way to acheive any real progress with these issues.

Larry Littlefield

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:41:49 -0500

The disparities seen today are the result of the eduation system as it was a decade ago. Which is to say bad in general, but really bad for Blacks and Latinos. In FY 1996, the state cut school aid to NYC, where spending was already low, and increased it to the rest of the state, where it was high. There were 35 kids in the kindergarten at the public school down the street, and no teaching supplies for a year. Giuliani cut a deal in 1995 to allow teachers to temporarily retire at 55, to be replaced by uncertified green newbies at a lower cost. He did it just as enrollment was soaring nationwide (the baby boom echo) and a teacher shortage was underway. With the lowest salaries in the region, the city couldn't hire anyone competent, and many teachers left mid year. Some kids in middle school had 3-4 unqualified, uncertified, clueless instructors in one year. Those teachers who stayed used their seniority to get out of the schools where the poor kids were, concentrating the bad teachers and high turnover there. Looks like Asian kids were more likely to survive this treatment, perhaps because they were educated outside the schools. We should be glad that anyone was educated at all. (My kids attended Catholic schools -- the older one will be attending a selective high school this year -- other parents left the city or have spent a decade fighting to get their kids in the limited number of NYC schools where an education is on offer). Pols count on newbies like those reading this blog forgetting history. High school is the caboose here. What we are seeing now was set in motion years ago. The effect of current changes won't be seen for years. But just remember, those of you who might be procreating in the next few years. If money gets tight, given more politically powerful priorities -- suburban schools, the health care industry, early retirement for the teachers' union -- the same decisions will likely be made again, to the detriment of your kids.

Moishe Chan

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:32:06 -0500

Thank you, anono. Hunter IS the best HS in NYC. Full stop. When I went there, a lot of 8th grade Hunter kids used to take the "specialized" test just to show how easy it was to get into Stuy, etc. Almost all passed, but very few actually transfered. And btw, Brooklyn Tech is not even a good regular HS, much less one of the 3 best in the city.

Samantha T

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:26:10 -0500

"Oh Samantha, I privately wondered how long before you would take the bait." Anonymass, I'm a bait-taker from way back. It's my Achilles heel. Great in the legal profession, though!

anono

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:13:03 -0500

Funny how no one ever asks these questions about Hunter College HS, which is arguably the best HS in the city (and I say that as a Science alum). I have no idea what the racial break-up there is, and it certainly relies heavily on testing to enroll its students.

oh come on Fame skool

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:56:23 -0500

How bout we do a graph on the Performing Arts schools and see how many Asians are enrolled? I know there are a few High Schools for Performing arts in the system. Maybe the only one with Asians in any significant numbers is the Music one.

Bob Ross

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:55:16 -0500

Why shouldn't specialized high schools exist? Why shouldn't the best and brightest be given every opportunity to realize their potential. Why are we so quick to criticize Stuy, Science and Tech, when in reality these crown jewels of the NYC department of education, as opposed to some larger percenatge of schools, actually do what they're supposed to? You know, give our kids an education. And yeah, I went to Stuy, my older brother went to Science, both of us, naturally, children of immigrants who could not have afforded to provide us with tutors to help us study. And we're white, but kind of swarthy. Why shouldn't we have been given the chance to go someplace to learn instead of having to deal with the BS of our zoned schools?

e

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:53:31 -0500

re: enjoy 'Asian Americans enjoy a different level of priveledge within our society that allows them to be more able to excel academicaly' yea, that's why we have the urban dictionary and everyone talks hip hop on their blogs. Our society, for some strange reason, embraces the black culture of gangstas. Asian kids' parents earn that privledge for their kids by putting an value on education and achievement. Asian have gangstas too but Asians as a group don't embrace it as a way of life.

Rorshach

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:46:36 -0500

As an Asian person I'd like to give a reason why most Asians excel. It's called spite. I remember when I was in grade school and the amount of Racism I received from Black and Hispanic kids was insane. Everyday it would be "chink" or "chino" or some kind of bullying by Hispanic and Black kids. I wasn't allowed to mingle with them cause they wouldn't accept me so the only thing I could do was study and go to the library. Then the only time they acknowledged me was when we were taking an exam and they didn't know the answer to the simplest questions. So the reason I went to Stuy and NYU afterwards was because of Racism from Black and Hispanic kids. Cause if I were treated like a normal student I would probably hang out and neglect my studies. Ostracization is beneficial I guess in some ways.

assholier than thou

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:43:50 -0500

It's time for us to all stop ignoring the fact that there exists a stratified hierarchy in our society between different minority groups. Asian Americans enjoy a different level of priveledge within our society that allows them to be more able to excel academicaly and by extension (but to a lesser extent) professionally. but on the other hand asian americans suffer by the same set of prejudices as the flip side is that they are seen as meek, obedient, and acquiescent. African Americans and hispanics however suffer under a different set of prejudices that makes it harder for them to succeed in the same circumstances. so it really helps no one to compare achievements when both groups are operating under dissimilar circumstances. furthermore, by highlighting these differences it creates unecessary antagonisms between asian americans and african americans and hispanics when in reality, both groups suffer under the limitations of prejudice and racism. just because asian americans are allowed to succeed academically doesnt negate the fact that they are being allowed by the power structure just because they are viewed as less threatening. the bigger question is what the point of these schools are, and one of the big factors against the specialized high schools are their empahses on math and science, which always lives or dies by the facts and the numbers, but tends to blind students to the fact that life does not operate by those rules alone. the testing for admissions just reinforces this notion. but growing up and learning is not just about information in books (although it is the foundation) but also learning how to interact with people of all backgrounds, and really how to be a human being who can exist in society without hurting others. the growing disparity between asian americans and other minority groups does not just hurt the other minority groups but also hurts asian americans by robbing them of context, as many of them come from immigrant households who have no real history of deep interactions with african american or hispanic communities in their home countries, and tend to bring negtive stereotypes with them because they know no better. so when these kids do well in school and get to these high schools where there is only a smattering of brown faces, it will just reinforce those ideas as well as the natural ego-boost that going to an elite institution provides. i dont know what the answer is or if there is one, but i wonder if there is some sort of disproportionality threshold that must be passed before the specialized high schools start considering other crieteria outside of The Test. Also, i would like to say that I also am a stuyvesant alumni and in no way am disparaging the education provided there, as i do think it was incomparable in many respects. but like anything, nothing is purely good or bad, and i recognize that it does have its shortcomings, namely intellectual snobbery and lack of empathy for those less fortunate.

anonymass

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:36:57 -0500

Oh Samantha, I privately wondered how long before you would take the bait. Anyway... What is somewhat misleading about those graphs is the fact that large increases in enrollment for one race automatically result in decreases in others. I read this as less about the failings of groups x and y but more about the success of group z. Of course, that's assuming a fairly static class size over the years.

anonymass

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:26:41 -0500

I'm not Asian, for the record, but their work ethic obviously exceeds that of many other races/ethnicities. Is it racism if you only make *disparaging* statements about an entire race? Or are all sweeping generalizations reason to cry foul? (Just trying to understand the full scope of this word that is so thoroughly and nauseatingly abused). [And I happen to agree with you, Kristin.]

Samantha T

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:22:32 -0500

" and chill, we all know that you have a complex because you're pretty smart even though it was never officially confirmed through your admission to somewhere like stuyvesant." The sad thing is that many friends of mine who are Stuyvesant - sorry, "Stuy" - grads actually think that other people have this kind of complex. You can't argue your way out of it, though, because the more you say that you'd have preferred to attend a normal high school than an insanely competitive high school full of smug assholes, the more convinced said assholes are that you don't know any better.

Anna

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:15:55 -0500

The thing is when I attended one of the SHSI programs and there was a large group of blacks and hispanics in my class. However, very few of them paid attention during class. Try not to take this offensively, I'm just stating what I saw.

if u like pina colada

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:09:21 -0500

Don't matter, Blacks don't read the NYT. Now, if it was the Daily News, different story. Maybe initially there was a influx of black and hispanic students till they found out they need to study, do homework and attend the tutor sessions. Add that in the stat.

ken

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:50:26 -0500

the article doesn't mention if the racial composition of the pool of test-takers has changed. if it mirrors the change in enrollment, then it may suggest something societal or familial (as jen said). but there was one thing in the article that hints at the pool of test-takers has changed: The chancellor is also trying to increase the proportion of black and Hispanic students participating in the institute, which officials said dwindled in the earlier years of the program as large numbers of white and Asian students signed on.

kristin

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:34:42 -0500

The reason Asians are sometimes overlooked as a minority is that they don't get leaders that trumpet their cause and kick and scream about this stuff, like black and hispanic leaders do. Instead, Asians have just buckled down and fought for what they wanted. Instead of relying on the system to give them advantages, like affirmative action, Asians have given themselves more advantages by simply working harder. I'm not Asian, for the record, but their work ethic obviously exceeds that of many other races/ethnicities.

natis

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:33:21 -0500

if i'm not mistaken, the chart shows enrollment and not those that may have passed the test but had declined to go to Tech, Stuy, or that other place ;p. One of the weird things about going to Tech (back in the early 90s) was that I was one of three kids from my junior high school that attended Tech. Just because you pass the exam doesn't mean you have to attend and I'm sure that there are many kids more interested in going where their friends are going.

Beetlebum

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:25:41 -0500

i got into fordham prep i own you kids.

mixed breed

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:06:46 -0500

god help us if there is ever an all-black Critical Mass at Shake Shack.

B

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:03:34 -0500

You can shove a horse in the water but that won't make him any more intelligent than he is.

fishtaler

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:54:41 -0500

samantha t, how does the existence of public magnet schools further institutional racism? that is really beyond me, but i suppose you are actually talking about something different and just using "institutional racism" to blow up the issue. and chill, we all know that you have a complex because you're pretty smart even though it was never officially confirmed through your admission to somewhere like stuyvesant. although i agree that this should certainly be a wake up to the administration to examine the disparities amongst the grammar schools, the whole part about the importance of academics in the home is disgusting. i don't know if that angle came from the nyt or from gothamist but seriously- why do discussions like this always need to include stereotypes about how important studying is at home for different ethnic groups? --studying in the asian home is of utmost importance so they are all set, but i mean, blacks and hispanics, they don't really know the value of a good education so i guess us enlightened people should figure out ways to institutionalize it for them--

Kojak

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:51:25 -0500

Gothamist didnt have to push the race button for more comments mixedbreed, they could've covered the shake shack, or those retarded critical mass bikers. There are TONS to choose from!

anon

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:40 -0500

Don't we need a graph of demographics of the entire high school population of new york city to make any conclusions about these graphs? What if the black and hispanic population in nyc is simply on the decline?

balsero

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:38 -0500

As a hispanic professional of reasonably high intelligence, I have to conclude, looking at the graphs, that Asians just have the brains and the rigorous discipline that most of us other humans lack. I know this may not be not PC, but it's probably true.

mixed breed

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:47:21 -0500

after a long dry spell, Gothamist is all about the race-related items this week. Not meeting their comment quota without them?

Kojak

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:38:40 -0500

I was* attending . . . oops

Kojak

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:38:01 -0500

These statistics are not just unique of the specialized high schools. If the same study is taken for some good non-specialized schools such as Francis Lewis, Forest Hills and Cardozo, the trend would pretty much be the same, and with these schools you have to be zoned for, or have grades good enough to get in. Francis Lewis has a lot more Asians now then when attending that’s for sure. "The REAL argument here is whether schools like stuyvesant should exist at all - pulling best students out of all the other public schools" True, but the environment in the regular high schools might keep them from succeeding. Both have their disadvantages.

da american dreamer

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:33:25 -0500

Wait, when I was growing up if you can't get into stuy but close enough, you could of went to summer school then attend stuy in the fall. So, every person is actually given a chance to attend stuy. And, most if not everyone who went to the summer school at wash irving went to stuy that fall. What remedial help? It's called studying for the exam. try it, it works. I know, I'm a lazy ass bum and I did it. Too bad, the Stuy prestige only works in NYC, where I am, no one's heard of it.

S.D.

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:32:58 -0500

Since applications must be filed in the three schools listed above: How is it racism? People need to choose to apply and then pass the test. Also, While It's been a Long while since I took the test, they didn't segregate the kids by race...

TK

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:30:36 -0500

I just find it amazing that "institutionalized racism" is the first reaction by the council-member from Washington Heights. It's insulting to the Asian kids who've worked hard to get into these schools. I have always wondered why the success of Asian students is looked on as to the detriment of others. It's unfair. The decline in recent years of white students in these schools is some proof that it's not racism - unless Asians somehow gained all sorts of power in school administration that I apparently missed out on. I also wonder when Asians stopped being a minority group. Maybe they should take a look at the demographics of the students who are taking advantage of the prep program for the exam. That may give some insight. Or perhaps look at the geographical demographics of where these new students are originating from within the city. The graphs alone do not provide enough information to draw any conclusion, particularly "institutionalized racism." They are the end result. More evidence is required to figure out the reason.

Samantha T

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:30:24 -0500

"I can't imagine a greater collection of intellect and drive than at Stuyvesant (including the Harvards of the world)" Please, please stop. Seriously. We all know that you took a test when you were 14 and got into an extremely competitive public school in NYC. We get it. That it's public doesn't make your statement any less frigging pompous. I'd argue that the existence of these schools furthers institutional racism (expressed by the same poster who wrote the statement above, oddly enough), but what do I know? I went to the only public school in my hometown and mixed with the intellectual riff-raff. And, no, I'm not from a lily-white NYC suburb.

sammyappel

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:25:14 -0500

somewhat appropriate: http://gladwell.com/2005/2005_10_10_a_admissions.html

EmBy

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:15:25 -0500

What I find maddening is that the remedial measures are supposed to only be offered to minority students--who may attend the same school as white students, who are not offered the same opportunity. This kind of extra help should be offered on a school-by-school basis, not as a factor of race. Why would minority kids who go to a good school need extra help? Shouldn't all the kids at a failing school be given extra help--even the white ones?

Mike

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:11:23 -0500

As a stuyvesant alum, I have a few big issues with this article, and the flawed arguments it presents: 1) You can't argue with admissions' methodology when you look at the results...I can't imagine a greater collection of intellect and drive than at Stuyvesant (including the Harvards of the world). 2) College/job admissions is FAR more flawed (nepotism, admissions consultants writing/forging entire applications) The NYC specalized high school test is one of the institutions in this country blind to all factors..ESPECIALLY MONEY..you can pay for all the tutors you want, but your child still has to sit and outperform tens-of-thousands of others...daddy can't call in any favors for this one..hard work is the only thing that gets it done. 3) The REAL argument here is whether schools like stuyvesant should exist at all - pulling best students out of all the other public schools - shouldn't Harvard civil rights people be more worried about the kids left behind, and rid themselves of the biased assumption that you can't get a good education unless you go to one of the specialized schools? 4) How can you argue that the problem is all these kids are getting tutors on the side and then say Asian population is up to 60% ... How many Asian families are able to afford private tutoring? Many Stuyvesant studnets are first generation, children of immigrants, many even immigrants themselves. Those parents may get it for their kids, but not because they're rich, but because they know it's important. Jen is right in her assessment. It's not about the test. If the school exists, the test is BY FAR the best way to dictate admissions. It's what else goes on that needs to change.

K

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:06:11 -0500

maybe because racism is not a white vs * thing.

e

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:46:18 -0500

what dumb f______s at the NYT. How can it be institutionalized racism when the number of whites has declined also?

anonymass

Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:45:27 -0500

I consider myself liberal but even I find the conclusion of those graphs a little crazy. Why is the focus just on the decline of minority students? Each graph depicts a significant decline in white students as well. I guess we don't care about that though.