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Early Addition
It's been two years since the MTA tried to propose a ban on subway photography and it's been over a year since the MTA and NYPD decided not to impose a ban. And it's been five months since the MTA said they would work on making sure police officers wouldn't harrass photographs for taking photographs in subway and train stations. And yet... reader Jarid emailed us about getting stopped by a police after taking photographs on a subway on Monday.
Yesterday (8/14), at 8:00 a.m., I was stopped at removed from an A train by the NYPD at the Broadway-Nassau station for... taking photos. I was detained for a solid 15-20 minutes on the platform while being questioned repeatedly, made to turn over ID (including his asking why I was carrying a Massachusetts State ID -- I'm a student studying at Columbia), had to give over all sorts of personal information because, in the words of the cop, I had been "taken off a train," and then, probably to scare the hell out of me, the cop took my camera and placed it in his uniform chest pocket. He then read me the terrorism riot-act, so to speak, telling me I was frightening numerous passengers on the train who subsequently complained by taking photos, told me I was taking videos (which I was not -- I've never used the video feature of my camera) of sensitive areas (specifically tunnels -- which, again, I was not), and told me that similar matters can be turned over to the FBI for further investigation.Jarid seems to have acted appropriately - he followed the officer and answered the questions - while the officer seems to have been overzealous especially since taking photographs of the subway is not illegal. Jarid initially posted about the incident on SubChat, which raised lots of interesting responses, many of them pointing out that while the police can stop you, you are not required to turn over your name or ID to them. Then it appeared on NYPDRant, where their posters went to town ("Sorry to inconvenience you, you f*cking p*ssy"). Jarid has contacted the Civilian Complaint Review Board and NYCLU to see what they say.After handing my camera back, he then made me turn on my camera and scroll through the photos taken. First he said that he'd do it himself, but I made sure that the camera would not be let out of my possession again. After telling me that what I was doing was perfectly legal (my first question was, "Is what I'm doing illegal?"), he told me to place the camera in my pocket, stop taking photos, and be on my way to my destination. He called the incident a "headache" and can only be avoided by stopping taking photos in the system. Frankly, I'm a rail-hobbyist, who decided to take an early morning trip to Far Rockaway to watch the sunrise along the water, and take photos along the way. I'm not sure if it was my Mets hat or school sweatshirt that did me in, but I guess I triggered a response from some passengers -- or perhaps the officer saw me from his booth at High Street and decided to play the whole tough guy schtick with me at the next stop.
Above is one of the photographs that Jarid took.
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I have a printout from the MTA that says photography is permitted thruout the system. It hasn't been tested yet, though, and I imagine that if the cops stop me, they'll say the _MTA_ allows photography, but WE don't.
The only thing to do is practice discretion and make sure nobody's around when you squeeze off pics.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Subways%20homepage/subways.html
re those cops on NYPD rant,
lovely, is all I have to say.
If they don't like the job, quit, like any NORMAL person. NO ONE forced them to be a cop.
just goes to show you, I too think, it's only white men who complain and whine the most.
The NYCLU cannot help. The officer did nothing wrong. Police are perfectly within their rights to detain people and ask questions. The pocketing of the camera was a little dramatic (probably done more to intimidate than anything else) But Jarid did everything right, and all he lost was 15-20 minutes of his time. He has a good story, but no legal case.
To cover police questioning behavior involving civilians, Jirad and other people like him, civilian should pick up a permit form the token clerk which states he or she is taking picutures for research purposes. The library has their customers fill out name and address and purpose when accessing information in the circulating library.
in that case, i recently heard an MTA employee (subway conductor) lying about the law:
downtown 2 train on Aug 12, pulling into times square, the conductor made a long anouncement that photography in subways is illegal (yes, he used word illegal), and that if you're caught snapping, the police will arrest you (yup he specifically said arrested), confiscate your equipment and not return it.
(also posted on the tips page a few days ago, sorry, but it seems relevant here)
Not surprising. The NYPD has a problem with understandingly what the law actually IS, i.e. harrassing law-abiding cyclists.
reading NYPD rant is like looking under a rock and seeing lots of ugly bugs. yuck. these people are protecting us?!
I can't tell you how much this pisses me off. My roommate has been harassed twice in the past week for taking pictures of buildings in the city. Both times he refused to give his I.D. and the police let him go, for some reason. If you are clearly not doing anything wrong, do you have to say anything or show I.D.?
law abiding cyclists? Ha! I have yet to see one cyclist in New York stop for a stop sign or traffic light. Going the wrong way on a one way street is the norm. Blocking the box is huge fine for cars plus points on your license yet cyclists think nothing of it. And stay off the sidewalks!
hate them all, are you going to get my little dog toto too?
There is a great video up on google made by the ACLU about your rights dealing with police officers. Jarid could have politely asked at any point if he was being detained or if he was free to go- at which point most officers will let you go unless they know they have something to hold you on; which obviously in this case they did not.
It was the Mets hat. Take my advice, root for the Yankees. No terrorists in the House that Ruth Built. :>)
PS to #9: it's 4 pm, medication time.
That NYPD Rant board is sad- what a bunch of pathetic excuses for police officers. We should switch over to an unarmed police force and see how fast their attitude changes.
That NYPDrant board is tres ugly.
I've had my issues with this as well, with both MTA employees and police officers being incredibly misinformed about the law and making threats. Personally, I don't care because I'm not doing anything wrong, and I've never been inconvenienced to the extent that Jarid had.
I concur that Jarid has no legal case here, and that the police officer might have annoyed him but neither of them did anything wrong here. That said, even if I think the NYPD can and should be investigating suspicious activity on trains and platforms, why are they so freaking CLUMSY about it? The last thing I want to deal with is a cop who thinks his job carries priority over civil liberties. As much as I respect and admire their work, that is NEVER the case.
Plus, police officers should show some courtesy as long as everyone's playing nice. Contrary to what some people are assuming here, I don't think that Jarid started screaming like "ACLU!" in the officer's face, and that Jarid merely verbally asserted his right to continue taking pictures for a harmless cause. Even though the officer detained Jarid properly for a matter in dispute, he could have been much less of a hardass about it. Once the guy's pulled off the train and the activity is no longer proceeding, what's the immediate threat? Just get everything cleared up ASAP. I'm sure cops hate filling out arrest paperwork as much as citizens hate being arrested for stupid shit.
The cop wasted pretty much everyone's time on this one, plus he verbally provoked the non-criminal, and in the end that's nothing but sloppy work. And the NYPD could stand to be a little less sloppy on stuff like this.
Sing it with me: "N-Y-P-D Wasting Money".
NYPD Rant...they make CL Rants and Ravers look classy. :)
What's up with militant conservatives and their lack of design skills? I couldn't look at that thing for more than 5 minutes without my brain melting.
I noticed one of the guys posting about "liberal pussies" ended his tirade with some smartass remark about "microbrews." Any idiot knows that lots of microbrews have much higher alcohol content than other swill.
Someone ought to post a bunch of penis phots to balance all the tit pics...I'd think the female contingent of the NYPD needs a bit of eye candy too, no?
Jarid should quit his whining.
If NYPD Rant represents the average current officer, I doubt I'd trust one handling any digital camera of mine. Seriously though? My lovable redneck uncle (and former officer) also thinks this shit represents a waste of recources.
Sounds like the Officer was having a bad day and decided to share it Or he's just on a power trip. I'd imagine that they know what's legal vs. what isn't.
Wow. I could only get through one page of NYPD Rant - it was too painful. I feel like if ever approached by an officer for any reason i should quickly (and fasely) identify myself as a Republican for my own safety.
I was held for over forty minutes by a cop in Bed-Stuy for walking by him. No joke, I walked by him to go to the train. He called me over to him, as I did he told me to "Get the f*ck up against the wall" and to not "Even think about moving!" It turns out that he didn't like the legal, non-concealed pocket knife that I had in my pocket. He detained me, searched me, called back up, just to let me go, with my knife! I took his badge number and filed a complaint. It took months to hear anything back and when I did, naturally, he was off the hook. The worst part is that he DENIED that he had "used discourteous language." This scares the hell out of me. NYPD can hold you against your will for any amount of time and get away w/ it w/o as much as an apology. Land of the free indeed.
"law abiding cyclists? Ha! I have yet to see one cyclist in New York stop for a stop sign or traffic light. Going the wrong way on a one way street is the norm. Blocking the box is huge fine for cars plus points on your license yet cyclists think nothing of it. And stay off the sidewalks!" FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! How many times do you jaywalk a day? count that shit up. Think before you write anything.
S.D. Trust me - cops do NOT know what's legal or not.
thatguy, it's best to keep your knife inside your pocket and not use the clip.
I'm surprised he noticed it. Or you can get one of those leatherman belt pouches and put it in that.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes - Who watches the Watchmen?
Point 1: Cops make a point not to know the law too closely. Otherwise, they'd realize that many of their actions are legally dubious and/or outright illegal. Check out the NYPDrant board....lots of angry, bitter, cops without much deep understanding of the law or their role in society.
Point 2: If its not illegal, the police can still question you about it. Of course, you are under no obligation to answer any questions and are free to leave. Just ask very clearly, "Am I being detained or am I free to go". You are under no obligation to hand over the camera for inspection...that would be an illegal search and seizure. If he insists on taking/inpecting the camera, hand it over, but clearly state that "I do not consent to this search and believe it to be legally unjustifiable".
Do these things and you'll establish a good case (if need be) to report to the Civilian Complaint Board.
F**k NYPD!
If you had any doubt that the average police officer is a racist anti-liberal facist with little to no understanding of the law, check out NYPDrant!! Frightening stuff....I'd be embarassed to be an NYPD officer after reading that board.
I was stopped at the Roosevelt Island station after taking a photograph of an oncoming train from the platform above the tracks. As I rejoined my party at the lower level alongside the track, and officer approached me and told me that I could not take a photograph directly at the conductor. I told him that I understood that was because of the flash, I then told him that I took the photo without flash and he was completely satisfied with my actions.
He then chatted with my friends about life in the city while we waited for the next train.
jay: your point is valid, but all railfans know full well not to use the flash -- so that's a nonissue here. (i am married to one and jarid is a personal friend of mine.)
hate 'em all- well, I'm sure I won't convince you, since you've already made your judegment. but here's a go:
I wasn't claiming that all cyclists are law-abiding. After all, almost all pedestrians break the law every day by jay-walking and such (and many times, endangering cyclists by not looking when they do so, and then walking right in front of them). I was simply referring to cops writing tickets and arresting cyclists for violations that don't exist! For instance, not riding in the bike lane (we don't have to if it's unsafe, or a cop car is parked in one!), not having reflectors (not illegal), not wearing a helmet (not illegal unless under 14), riding more than 2 abreast (completely legal in NYC, though not in NYS), ad nauseum.
Re: [1]
That's irrelevant. The subway system is essentially private property run by a public/private entity. The entity has final say in what goes on in there, as long as it's not a clear violation of any laws on the books. Tell them to point out where New York law supersedes MTA law in this instance. And make sure you get their badge numbers. Kumar (of "Harold & Kumar" fame) was right. An awful lot of cops are just asses who would otherwise have no power whatsoever over anybody else, so they vigorously exercise and abuse what little power they actually are given.
The Civilian Complaint Board is nearly as corrupt as most of the NYPD officers. They only exist only because it makes good P.R. If its your word against the police officers, you'll lose every time when dealing with CCB because police are excellent trained liars and CCB will always side with the NYPD.
Just remember: that nypd rant isn't a representative sample of all cops. It's a lot of disgruntled idiots and cop wanna bes on there talking tough trying to impress each other. Though if they keep lowering the standards to get hired to that job, we'll be seeing a lot more uneducated idiots like that around, as well as all those cops you hear about ever single week these days getting arrested for commiting crimes. 3 busted just last night in brooklyn vice, breaking and entering to try to cover up a false bust they probably needed to make their 'prformance standard' (cuz there is no such a thing as a quota - really!)
All I can say is this is what happens when the you get idiots like bloomberg nickel and diming - would YOU work for a job that pays 25k to start and requires about $1000 outlay of your own money for uniforms and gear? And this is also what you get when you let a police department basically be run by a program, i. e. Compstat. Cops can't fight real crime, they're slaves to the stats and making the numbers look good. May as well give them pocket protectors and calculators at this point. It's what the administration has demoralized the department into.
Anyway if the bad hiring tactics keep up this city is in some serious trouble. you'll never attract the people you want as cops under these conditions. It's a shame this issue isn't getting more press. (Sewell Chan, I'm calling you out motherfucker).
Oh, please.
The standards were always the same. It's your old boys network who help each other out passing the psych and written exams.
It's well known, just like the frat house with all the tests in the file drawer.
Stop blaming it on lower standards. I dunno, looks like there's no shortage of recruits at the last class. I know many came from varied backgrounds and most had a 4 year degree. That's because the economy was so bad, the only job to consider was being a cop or correction officer.
And the pocket protector jab, I would like to see you decipher a stock prospectuss' vital figures.
Oh I know, buy low, sell high.
Photography is illegal in the PATH trains or on Port Authority property, but not MTA?! WTF?!
I thought Jay's post was interesting. He had to explain that the photograph he just took didn't use the flash. I suppose the NYPD doesn't train officers to know what a flash is?
Sounds like you have to carry a printed copy of your rights with you, so you can teach it to the uniformed thugs when they harass you. Great.
How do we get Bloomberg to clean up the police? Write to him, I expect. Here goes...
Poor kid shouldn't have taken that crap.
If he thinks that is an inconvenience why not ask the families of those killed on 9-11 what they think. This is a new day an age and over caution takes precedence over a little bit of inconvenience. lucky for him DC MO was not there or he would have faced a cavity search.
Lt Pete Martin said he would like this boy to buy him lunch to discuss this unfortunate situation. CALL 1 PP DCPI for details.
I would like the cops names so I can give them a CD (disciplinary action). I am a top cop in Manhattan.
Alright M...time for a little lesson on the Vehicle and Traffic Law in NYS.
Section 1236e ....requires a reflector on both front and rear tires. Front reflector to be colorless or amber. Reflector on rear tire to be colorless or red.
1236b...requires a bell or other audible device.
1234b....shall not ride more than two abreast (and it IS applicable to NYC.) UNLESS on a shoulder and there is sufficent room to ride more than 2 abreast..however if passing a vehicle or pedestrian (and when aren't you in NYC) you must return to riding SINGLE FILE.
Section 1050.9 of the Transit Rules permit photography (no lights, reflectors and tripods).
HOWEVER at any given time the NYPD may perform what is called a common law right of inquiry (stop and question you as to your purpose for being there.) If they find insufficent or inappropriate reasoning for your conduct they MAY detain you until such time as they have conducted an investigation.
In addition, once detained the officer MAY perform certain acts to maintain his/her safety such as frisking you for weapons, removing any items that may be used as a weapon against them (such as a camera which may be used to strike the officer) and if they feel the need handcuff you temporarily.
The only thing they have to do if they decide to let you go is a Stop Question and Frisk report to cover their asses. This is all legal, as held up by the courts.
Once the officer decides to hold you for an investigation if you decide you are just going to walk away you may wind up with a summons for Disorderly Conduct (failure to obey a lawful order).
Could this guy and the cop have had a better time of all this? Yep. But did the cop do anything wrong? Nope.
Go back to the midwest you liberal assholes. The average middle class New Yorker resents your presence.
check your facts sounds like you should go back to school.
VTL §1234, which states that you must ride by the right-hand curb and no more than two abreast DOES NOT APPLY IN NEW YORK CITY. It is specifically superseded by 34 RCNY 4-02 (e)
—34 RCNY § 4-02(e): State law provisions superseded. Pursuant to authority provided by § 1642 of the Vehicle and Traffic Law, the following provisions of such law shall not be effective in the City of New York: § § 1112, 1142(b), 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1156(b), 1157, 1171, 1201, 1202, and 1234.
I think the nypdrant forum is full of non police wanna bees. They argue too much. Seems there is a real bad one. J. Stokes. And the city should hire police like on long island. To get those police the city has to pay like long island. All the new police in the city are not like the old time police. the new police hide and are nasty. Lets ask the mayor to take the police off the streets and do other work. Crime will go down if we just all get along and work together.
Any cops posting on here face disciplinary action besides you Chief O.
Many of the bloggers that post on 'NYPDRANT' whether they be actual police officers or not, are feeble-minded, cowardly, pathetic racists that would most likely carry out the will of Adolf Hitler if they could get away with it. As an NYPD officer myself I do believe that the majority of bloggers that post there (NYPDRANT) are NYPD cops. Whoever reads this please don't think that their sentiments reflect the thoughts and ideals of all NYPD police officers.