"Moses' Gowanus project resulted in a crime-ridden, rubble strewn Brooklyn waterfront, where there could have been a vibrant neighborhood filled with puppies and parks and families"

Umm.... I think it has something more to do with one of the largest low-income housing projects in the country being built there. But, for the benefit of political correctness, you can blame the highway.

Great are very own Big Dig. Chuck Schumer our very own Tip O'Neal.

>>>It's perpetually under-construction, traffic clogged, and worst of all, it cuts off all of Red Hook and the Sunset Park Waterfront from the rest of Brooklyn.

That's been the accepted wisdom since the Caro biography of Robert Moses. Admittedly, the area under the Gowanus along 3rd Avenue is a complete mess, and even pedestrian crossings in the 50s along the avenue are restricted. However, an elevated expressway, if maintained, need not be a barrier from one community to the other.

The city has had both a lack or resources and a lack of will to maintain the elevated Gowanus, both the roadway and the area under it.

A tunnel would be Big Dig Vol. II, and if there were cost overruns, mob involvement and a general big mess in Boston for over a decade, imagine what a NYC Big Dig will entail.

www.forgotten-ny.com

Didn't they just spend at least 15 years REBUILDING the Gowanus? That thing has been under reconstruction since the 80's. Just when it looks like the end is in sight, they're going to tear it down? What a waste!

I'm sure they are considering this because gentrification has finally reached the borders of Red Hook. I've been going to Sunset Park pretty frequently for the last few years and you could pretty much watch gentrification marching in from the east. The creation of Brooklyn Bridge Park from the old container port and the conversion of that old warehouse on Furman St to condos was the first jump across the expressway itself. Now that the beachhead is open, this will no doubt open the flood gates. In the meantime, God help Brooklyn. If Boston is any indicator, this is going to be one hell of an ordeal for years to come.

"The argument isn't really about el trains being better than highways - they aren't. They were torn down in any area that could afford it for a reason. But highways are a similar divider. And since no one wants to live near a highway (the smell thing is major) the buildings around there tend to be ramshackle or industrial. And who wants to walk through an area like that everyday?"
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Well, actually, nowadays, the industrial and ramshackle have a fair amount of appeal for a certain demographic. Those adjectives account for a great amount of Red Hook's modern charm.

Your point about elevated trains being almost as bad as elevated highways does address the other issue brought up here -- that it's unlikely the highway caused the waterfront's decline (although it may have prevented it from being redeveloped earlier, which is probably a good thing as the area's charm would likely have been lost if it had been).

Nowadays, many of us mourn the loss of industrial areas due to the architectural and attitudinal homogenization of the city. In many ways that highway and those housing projects saved Red Hook, preserving much of its historic character via neglect (so that it can instead be destroyed now by Ikea and such). Well, elevated rail lines are also part of New York's historic character.

In the popular imagination of non-New Yorkers, they run through Manhattan, even today. (Proof of this is Spiderman 2, which so strongly believed in a Manhattan el that it went to Chicago to get one.) I think it would be nice if one elevated rail line still ran through Manhattan. (And great for filmmakers.)

And while I understand that real estate values in the showcase parts of Manhattan were improved by the demolition of the els, more workaday areas of the city are not diminished by their presence. In fact, many outerborough neighborhoods with elevated lines are bustling and happy neighborhoods of just the sort Jake imagines for the Brooklyn waterfront.

Just as this thing about the Gowanus destroying Red Hook has become the "official" reason, ignoring the many others, so has the real estate excuse for the loss of many el lines ignored the other meaningful causes. (Does anyone argue that Chicago is diminished as a city because of its El?)

For instance, subway technology rendered some of the els unnecessary. The line on which the Gowanus was built, for instance, probably became increasingly irrelevant after the building of the BMT's 4th Ave. subway. (And there was also the matter of Mayor John Hylan's grudge against the BMT.)

Ironically, the best thing that could be done under the present circumstances would be -- rather than tearing the Gowanus down once the tunnel is completed -- to reinstitute a rail line on the structure of the existing highway, reversing what was previously done. After all, modern-day Red Hook suffers most from a lack of mass transit access to the rest of the city. And an elevated train rumbling through that industrial moonscape would be really cool.

It'd be nice if they could demolish the expressway, and NOT waste money on a tunnel. Use the money instead to build light rail and restore the community (get rid of the projects and build real apartments), etc.

I get a really good eye roll whenever the blue states embark on massive highway projects. Aren't we supposed to discourage more driving? Remove the roads and usually the traffic goes with it. When San Francisco removed the earthquake damaged Embarcadero Freeway there was not an increase in traffic. And as a former resident of Boston I can say that the Central Artery does/did not materially impact the viability of the North End as a neighborhood thus I have to believe that neighborhoods rise and fall on other factors. I say put the mass transit back and raise the tolls.

Whatever happened to that idea for a freight tunnel under the harbor from Newark? That was a good idea.

The Gowanus is the only highway I have ever driven on that I am truly afraid will collapse with the weight of the cars that drive on it. That and the a-holes who tailgate and zip all over the road. But I digress...

Actually the restoration of a rail link wouldn't be a bad idea. I think one of the reasons Red Hook and Sunset Park are so depressed is because they are too hard to get to via subway from Manhattan. While it's a direct line, the ride itself can take an hour or more to Times Square. Forget about getting to Bay Ridge. Maybe if the city instituted a system of high speed limited stop trains out to the far reaches of the boroughs, more people who work in Manhattan would want to live there. Although that makes me think it would detract from the neighborhood qualities of places like Bay Ridge. Hmm. It would definitely be a difficult balance.

[12] Posted by: MT | May 4, 2006 02:36 PM
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You have my full support.

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Whatever happened to that idea for a freight tunnel under the harbor from Newark? That was a good idea.

[13] Posted by: b | May 4, 2006 02:47 PM
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Sunset Parks's congressional rep, Nadler, wants it. Others don't. Someday, hopefully.

These are very insightful comments and are very much appreciated. I agree with post #13 - "Aren't we supposed to discourage more driving? Remove the roads and usually the traffic goes with it." We are often asked about real estate in Red Hook as Nest Seekers has a Dumbo office, and although we are getting quite a few listings in the neighborhood, our brokers don't really want to drive to Red Hook when they can walk and/or take the subway to show properties in other areas in Brooklyn.

headline should say "2025" -- DOT is saying that this would take 15 years to build, and that a final environmental impact statement would come out, best-case, in 2010.