Gothamist: New York's Black Population On The Decline?

Michail

Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:55:20 -0500

goo work

Winie

Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:08:34 -0500

I always know it’s nearly Christmas time because I go to the Good Food Show in Birmingham. This year I did 12 live shows in front of about 20,000 people which were really good fun, and it was great to see a record amount of men in the audience getting involved!

Winie

Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:08:25 -0500

Willi

Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:22:53 -0500

Pamper your pooch and enhance your decor with Art Itself's beautiful hand painted designer dog dishes. We offer a variety of designs, colors and sizes to meet your needs.

Jaime Van

Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:04:14 -0500

Classical singer Russell Watson postpones his forthcoming UK tour after undergoing brain surgery...

BoBo

Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:21:44 -0500

The black kids are cool!

King Kong

Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:32:40 -0500

HML and Suz, I don't have much time to reply now, but you bring up some interesting points. I don't fully agree, yet I understand your positions. A couple of things: Recent so-called "ghetto culture" in America actually does fit well with some of the modern views of Western materialism. In fact, it's like Western-style consumer materialism on steroids but without the essential vitamins. Think of the bastardization of hip hop into what it currently is, and tell me otherwise - regardless of the part of the country. Second, regarding immigrant groups...there are a few things that one must consider before making the sweeping statements. I'll list a few: Poverty in a developing nation is VASTLY different from poverty in the U.S. urban centers - this affects (I think) a family's determination for something better Many Blacks in America harbor a basic expectation that the "system" is unfair and aligned against them - some of this is unjustified, but much of it has basis in actual history. This affects a person's perceived view of what's important and what is attainable through education and hard work. "Desegregation" is reputed by some sociologists to have had a negative effect on the supporting social and cultural infrastructure in poor communities that are mostly Black. I'm not so sure that the stats for immigrant Latinos' lack of educational attainment are much different than some other immigrant communities - I think that a more rigorous body of research exists that may explain this via other factors than "a community doesn't want to change." Will write more when I have time...

suz

Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:38:14 -0500

HML---I agree with some of what you say and not with other points. I agree that northern public schools are poorly managed--and not for lack of money. But I disagree that immigrant children are severely disadvantaged. Immigrant children from Arab families, African families, Asian families, and Eastern European families often live in very humble circumstances but put a premium on education and achievement. So they start to move ahead after a generation. I think this is turning out to be relatively true for Brazilians as well. The ones that tend to lag are Hispanics from Mexico and the Caribbean. Like Black Americans, they come from a (sub)culture that does not value education. There are Black Americans who do value education, but statistically, they are not the majority. It's very hard to change a community that doesn't want to change.

HML

Thu, 06 Apr 2006 11:55:41 -0500

My world view I don't believe that migration boils down to economics in the present century, although it plays a role in every decision. I think that people will give up working two or three jobs up North or out West to work one job in the south that pays far less than the three jobs together. Today, quality is more important than quantity. That is why many white people, in the last fes years, have been moving back to Brooklyn and other surrounding areas that they left and cutting their commute time down from hours to minutes. It is part economic but a large remainder is having more qaulity time to spend with thing that are important to them. You said that the American way is a product of the western world culture. I think that the ghetto exists not because the people have ignored the western world culture, but because they have been left behind. They are being ignored. At one time there was a philosophy that stated that "religion is the opiate of the people." Meaning that religion sedates them and keeps them from thinking beyond that issue. It seems that the sub culture or the "under class culture" has become the opiate that has sedated an entire population of people. It is systematic oppression. I don't believe that it is economic, but a deliberate political maneuver. Many of them do not realize how awful there situation is. I believe that it is a systematic attempt to keep a specific class of people in one place and out of commission. They are not just blacks. This is the only country that incarcerates a large number of people. The incarcerated just sit idol in prison. Then when they are allowed out of prison, without rehabilitation, some are made to pay a fine for a length of time in which they are on parole. They are usually unskilled people with no income. This is an oxymoron. Why are they not trained to work a job before coming out of prison. A large prison needs a least $10,000 per prisoner per month. This is backwards. They is not used to recondition them for society. That is stupid and does not come from Europe, western world. On another angle, I know of a women who lives in the projects; she has very little post high school education; she has worked the same job for over twenty years. Good for her. She has a good pension. She has two children and is divorced, her first dilemma. She lives in the ghetto/projects, and her youngest son is going to school, presently, to study in the Sciences. She also, has a daughter who has one child and no husband. Her daughter has just graduated with a masters degree from Elete university and a school of dentistry. Her daughter is on Well Fair and lives in the projects. Her daughter was on Well Fair before entering her second degree. She is going to over come and move off of Well Fair soon. She already has a job offer which will come after she takes the state board license. The problems with the existence of the culture in ghetto is not that they have ignored the Western World. The mother manages her money well. She has chosen to live in the projects over the years. She is one tough lady. She is moving to the south when she retires. She doesn't want to live in New York, she has out grown it. She doesn't want a lot of "bling bling." In fact she is very conservative. There others like her in the "ghetto." The Western World concept does not fit them. Like a pair of pants too small or too big. Integrated schools in the northern cities are still very poorly run. They are under staffed with an over whelming number of children. This is not economics. It is a lack gov.management. The money is there. The most dis-advantaged are the new immigrant children. Hispanic child have the highest drop out rate in New York City. Attention is spent on construction. More building. Look at he new "World Trade Center." That is going to cost a fortune. The new Yankee stadium is going to cost a double fortune. This is a materialistic mentality and some people believe that "less is more." Don't misunderstand. There are many wealthy African Americans who are extravagant and want to live where they can have more for less. But the majority of African Americans want a peaceful, quiet meaningful living existence with a few amenities on the side.

suz

Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:08:23 -0500

"Keeping up with a white society no longer means that much to them." This is really sad and I hope it's not true. Because it's not a white society. It's western culture and anyone who lives within it but rejects it is screwed. Which has essentially been the problem of ghetto culture for the last 40 years. A lot of middle class blacks have headed south to Atlanta etc because you get more bang for your buck, and it's a less taxing lifestyle...plus: Jim Crow is over and done with in a big way, so people are basically going back home. Blacks never really abandoned their southern ways. Poorer blacks are probably just taking a cue from more affluent blacks and heading south. But bottom line: Migration always boils down to economics. Always. Nothing new under the sun.

hml

Wed, 05 Apr 2006 15:43:44 -0500

The most recent post by King Kong. "America has never fully dealt with DuBois' "problem of the Color Line," and with globalization concerning us all, we probably never will." I disagree. Globalization will force a white minority to deal with a "Color Line." Three qaurters of the world is not caucasian. The American white man/woman has taken on a different attitude towards different people, especially, people of color. Their attitude is generally a superior and inferior issue. A person can not have a closed mind in a global world. They will eventually deal with it on a global scale. Also, it may be that black people have moved to the south because they want a slower and more meaningful life style. Keeping up with a white society no longer means that much to them. Maybe seperate and equal is not a bad idea. (just theorizing a little) Seventy years ago, a "negro" family did not up and send a child off to college "up north" or anywhere else. The family went where the best opportunities were. Now, a family can live in the rural south. They can do what many foreign born people do. Go away and make money and then return to the place that feels like home. In the south a family can pay less money for a bigger house and send little "Shaquan" to college or let him finish up north or out west. I was speaking to a man of color the other day the who is about to retire. He is considered poor because of his income bracket. However, he has a pension and a life savings of $100,000. He remained in his City Jobs for years. Between he and his wife, the pension and SS will bring $8,000 per month. He is leaving New York when he retires. His children are staying. The south has a strong religious base, and always has. However most recently in the last two decades, mega churches have popped up. They are quite magnetic. Therefore, the south has not only a slower life style, but a cleaner moral traditional factor for living life. This would make the south a "quieter and gentler place." In cities the world is usually an "anything goes" mentality. And cities are so monopalized in an obvious way. The change in cities is to constant. Slow down and live a little. Just my opinion

King Kong

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 03:48:46 -0500

The article did mention that many of the Blacks moving to the South tend to be of lower economic or educational attainment. I suppose one could contrast this with working class Whites who have elected to stay in the Region, although I've not seen percentage comparisons between the two groups. Assume that working class Whites have elected to stay in the region. The difference is easily explainable because of the Great Migration that occurred with many Blacks during the 40's and 50's, along with the already cited slowing of Black immigrants from the Caribbean. I say explainable since one would expect that many of the working class Whites are 2nd generation or more descendants of European immigrants or have moved from elsewhere in the region while many of the working class Blacks from NY are either recent immigrants from the Caribbean or have come from the South. Holding all else equal while accounting for the wage differences between Blacks and Whites as well as the timing of widespread access to housing ownership (redlining as a practice was ended probably in the 1970's or even '80's), it is not surprising that working class Blacks are leaving the region. This is obviously driven by the combination of widespread higher housing prices and continued cost of living increases at the top end and most likely, by the pressure on wages for "menial jobs" on the low end, coming from new immigrants. I guess the story here is, don't count on diversity in a place where the social and economic infrastructure won't provide meaningful support for varied races. America has never fully dealt with DuBois' "problem of the Color Line," and with globalization concerning us all, we probably never will.

Jay

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 01:28:12 -0500

Drew, My belief is that issues of class and inequity is at the heart of the issue, or encompassing a significant chunk of it. It's not to say that I'm definitely sure, but if this is the case, I'm not sure how such hateful sentiments can be changed without first addressing the underlying problem. And Aliterator, why can't "gentrification" be possible without the yuppies and the hipsters that you speak of?

C

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 01:11:26 -0500

karen: blacks want jobs?! hah! ok but maybe these people are moving to florida just to get florida plates for their cars...just like pennsylvania is seeming like the hot place to live now *rolls eyes*...

Karen

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:50:56 -0500

Oh-and if the real estate in a lot of Florida is now higher than it was, say 5 years ago, the taxes are still a lot lower than NYS.

Karen

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:49:43 -0500

Maybe blacks are moving to Florida, for the same reason people of all races are moving there from Western NY. JOBS!

ha

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:39:44 -0500

don't move to florida. they won't let you vote.

Alliterator

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:22:56 -0500

I for one welcome gentrification and if it takes Hipsters and Yuppies to further this cause then so be it. 20 years ago New York was a hell hole, now look at it now! And this is coming from a Hispanic guy.

Teddy

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:20:53 -0500

"when black people leave, Property prices go up. That's been the cardinal law of Real Estate for the last 200 years. It's taught to all Real Estate agents. sad but true" That's happening in New Orleans right now.

Drew

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:59:11 -0500

Jay - Again, I agree with your economic analysis, no argument there. Whether or not one is shaken by hateful comments doesn't really matter. My wife didn't bat an eye either, but it's still hateful and racist. It's the speaker's attitude that counts, not the reaction. How far do you go in excusing behavior like that? You can always find some bullshit excuse for the way one acts, doesn't mean it's right, or understandable, or should be tolerated. We just have a minor disagreement here, I think you're right overall.

Jay

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:27:38 -0500

Drew, Notwithstanding your concern for the 'hateful comments', my girlfriend was actually not shaken by it all - she lived in Baltimore during college. I think she understands as much as I do that this case of racism sprung mainly out of economic issues, particularly one of class and equity, rather than just racism per se. Simply put, Manhattan represents the core of the markets, which in turn explains why so many are trying to inch closer and closer to the heart of the city in hopes of higher wages. But for the empoverished layman workers, this only fuels further competition, less room due to added occupancies, and consequently drifts them further into obscurity. Perhaps Mr. Ricardo was right about his fear of landlords after all.

smarty pants

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:02:56 -0500

how is rent "artificially inflated" when people start moving into a neighborhood? Rents increasing in response to increased demand is as real as economics gets.

Drew

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:29:39 -0500

Insert an "except" after "everything" in my last comment.

Drew

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:22:19 -0500

Jay - I actually agree with you about everything the part about your girlfriend being called "fucking aryan" being understandable. It's no more understandable than my wife being called a "terrorist bitch" because she has a little bit darker complexion (which did in fact happen). There may be understandable grievances against a certain group (white people or terrorists, in these cases), however, hateful comments are not an acceptable outlet for those complaints.

Larry Littlefield

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:58:47 -0500

Until recently, the trend was Black (and Latino) flight. That is, anyone in those groups who was not poor was fleeing to the suburbs, and given the crime and schools in their communities, who can blame them? They were replaced by immigrants. The poorest and most troubled in those groups stayed in the city, meaning no matter how many Blacks and Puerto Ricans advanced, the city's population in those groups stayed poor and troubled. Part of this may have to do with age -- the large cohort of Afr-Americans who moved up from the south retiring back there. Whether they have pensions or SSI, the dollar goes farther down there. It would not surprise me if the better off Afro-Americans are bucking the trend, and are more likely to stay then in the 1980s.

Bob A Booey

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:15:11 -0500

If Harlem become all white, where will people go to buy socially rersponsible "Stop Snitching" t-shirts?

Jay

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:05:50 -0500

Drew, However you consider the issue vis-a-vis my view is irrelevant, as we are different people with different opinions, different backgrounds, and so forth. Now if you were to state why you wouldn't consider the situation understandable, then I think we may actually get somewhere further than the junk I have written above. Further, I'm glad that black professionals and white professionals are getting along; but I think it however is exclusive in the sense that it ignores the worker within the equation. Everyone simply cannot be professionals. So as for the rest of them? What seems imminent in this case is that the empoverished become only further empoverished by being pushed out further and further from the center hub that is Manhattan. More than anything else, this is what bothers me.

Drew

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:17:37 -0500

Jay - No, I wouldn't consider that "understandable."

Mark

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:26:17 -0500

Why all the talk about gentrification meaning "white" people moving in? It is more like professional people moving in, white, black, yellow, etc etc. I am a white guy living in a "black" part of Brooklyn, and the recent slow gentrification sure looks to me like the professional black people in the area are just as happy as me that this is happening finally. Nothing beats hanging out in a bar with intelligent people of all races, not just white people...

jay

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:10:35 -0500

I guess i'm one of those gentrifiers.. i live in lower harlem and i've talked to locals.. most of the ones i've talked to are glad the neighborhood is cleaning up

dhex

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:52:18 -0500

certain kinds of racism are cuter than others.

Jay

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:34:22 -0500

Nothing wrong, of course, unless you are poor - and black in this case, and your rent is suddenly artificially inflated because a few hipsters settle in the same town. At one point, my girlfriend was referred to as a "fucking Aryan" in Bushwick despite her petulance for 'Whiteys' in general. Not saying this is right, but it's understandable.

kristin

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:23:15 -0500

There's nothing "wrong" per se with a white yuppie suburb. I think the point is that when all of manhattan and parts of the outlying boroughs become one, it takes away from the diversity that makes new york great. Culture is homogenizing. It's not good for us.

GOD IS DOG

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:05:42 -0500

when black people leave, Property prices go up. That's been the cardinal law of Real Estate for the last 200 years. It's taught to all Real Estate agents. sad but true

hr

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:02:27 -0500

"Soon Harlem will be nothing more than a white yuppie suburb." What's with the 'too kool for school' attitude that the white yuppie suburb is worse than AIDS and the worst place on the planet to be? Get over yourself and stop being so ashamed of where you come from.

miss glass

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:55:09 -0500

i've now read this article and seen it reposted a couple of places, and i'm perplexed as to why people seem to read this and shake their heads at how gentrification is "bad." when a neighbourhood becomes more desirable, people want to live there and must compete for space, and prices go up. poor people can't afford to stay sometimes. why is this bad? this is an indication of wealth and prosperity in manhattan. cool. i aspire to be successful enough to have earned my right to stay, but if i can longer afford it in the future, i'll leave. to Papercutninja: harlem has indeed cleaned up. now it's a place where a young woman like me can feel a little safer to visit, walk around and possibly spend money in those local businesses, rather than the place where i was chased and threated with injury and rape only a few years ago. that kind of neighborhood "character" i think we can do without.

Papercutninja

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:23:47 -0500

Yeah i'm thinking that the new "Harlem Renaissance" is pricing longtime residents out of the neighborhood they love and created. Soon Harlem will be nothing more than a white yuppie suburb. Yay. I'm glad that Harlem is cleaning up, but at what cost? Yay, theres an H&M there, but what about local businesses? Isn't that sort of thing that GAVE Harlem it's character? There are times in which gentrification sucks. *just using harlem as an example, as it's an icon.

Kojak

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:11:30 -0500

It’s too expensive to live in NY. And because of the high real estate prices , a lot of black people who own their homes are selling and moving to Florida to cash in. I’m guessing that’s one reason…