I wouldn't call Jodie Foster, Bjork or Douglas Adams boring, either. (BTW, whoever said "stupid" or "untalented?" sounds like you have some unresolved issues from your own past, mate.)

I wouldn't call Howard Stern boring, either. I called YOU boring.

The difference between these folks and you, my dear friend, is that they embrace their own truths and leave it at that. They don't feel it necessary to jump on some message board about violent fundamentalists and spout their contempt for other peoples' beliefs, using the actions of said fundamentalists as their sole basis for what I consider a very weak arguement.

(Except for Stern, who likes to trash other peoples' beliefs but is so f'in hilarious in doing so that you just gotta love him and his outrageousness. He also NEVER tries to adopt a stance of superiority, as you have -- at least not seriously. You, my friend, are no Howard Stern.)

Also, criticism of religion does not amount to atheism per se. Movies like "Dogma," "The Last Temptation of Christ," and books like "The Satanic Verses" are the first (and finest) examples that spring to my mind.

And, if you sneeringly refer to anyone who does consider the possibility of a higher power as making "a feeble attempt at understanding your existence" "loony" and believing in "ghosts and goblins," you are only asking to be flamed, and shouldn't be surprised when it comes backat ya. You will also be reminded that such ignoramuses as Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Ghandi, and Albert Einstein all endorsed the concept of a spiritual power, and certainly in the case of the first two, used it to motivate them in their causes.

Lastly, I suspect that if those cavemen you talk about had had enough food in their bellies, a warm fire and plenty of territory, they would give a rat's ass about whose volcano god is better.

Glad that we can agree at least that religion is interesting, and makes for good art. Whether you believe the Catholic Church or not, one thing you must grant them is that they have one hell... er, heck of an imagination. ;)

Here's a list of some other "boring" people:

http://www.celebatheists.com/w/index.php?title=Main_Page

I'd hardly call Jodie Foster stupid, Björk untalented, or Douglas Adams boring.

Mark Twain had also been one of the most memorable critics of religion in modern history.

One interesting person on the list is Darren Aronofsky, who wrote the film "Pi." The film is about a Jew who discovers the secret name of god within a number. But how could that be? You say atheists can't possibly write about religion, right?

Contrary to popular belief, atheists aren't afraid of religion. They just don't believe in it as fact. Religion is definitely interesting, and makes for excellent writing material.

My main point, and I admit I was being an insensitive asshole (I love being an asshole, by the way), was that throughout history, people kill and maim over the honor of their deity. Even though we live in modern times, we're still at the caveman mentality, fighting over whose volcano god is beter than whose volcano god.

How many people died over these Danish cartoons? A dozen? And for what? What a waste.

Wow, am I actually finding myself slightly agreeing with nola?! Maybe there IS a... never mind.

I'd be lying if I said I knew for sure there was anything out there like a divine presence, but I gotta tell you, much as I love and admire the atheists and they certainly make a good case, puh-leeeeese don't give me this "religion is the root of all evil" bullsh!t. Nola is correct when he/she refutes that tired old canard about "non-believers" never oppressing any other group of people, and the examples cited are just a paltry few. (Mao, anyone?)

Also, please get over yourself, you are not a "non believer," you are as firm in your belief that a higher power doesn't exist as others are that it does. And it's not "shocking" to any of us, like any belief system that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. (Of course you will fuss and fume that it's not an "opinion," it's a fact and then you will appear as pedantic, self-righteous and UNPROVEN as the most obnoxious televangelist).

Anyway, I like the fact that there are more than one belief system/ religion/whatever tha f--- you want to call it in the world. Some of the greatest works of art, liteature, poetry (not to mention heavy metal music LOL) were inspired by That In Which You Are Too Smart To Believe in. I can't imagine living in a world without it.

You may be logical, you may be even be right. But you're boring as hell. (Oh, sorry, you don't believe in that.)

Joe Stalin and Adolf Hitler were a couple of non-believers who revoked a few people's rights. Their wars may not have been "holy" wars, but they did more harm than any religious fanatics ever did.

It is also foolish to lump all believers into the same category when it is just one religion whose followers are advocating violence.

We Christians are very tolerant [...]

And I'm the one spouting nonsense, right?

Trust me, I know I'm not going to change your mind. I have the right to not believe, just as you have the right to believe. I am not shocking any deity, as he/it isn't there to feel any shock.

You don't see non-believers revoking people's rights, taking over women's bodies or causing holy wars.

THAT's a hell of a lot more shocking than whatever myself or other non-believers yap our gums about.

Anti-Theism - Your gratuitous insults disguised as commentary do more to injure your case than I ever could. People like you are very amusing - you enjoy all the benefits that our society bestows and claim to reject it at the same time. Nice try. The fact is you would not want to live in a society that wasn't shaped by Judeo-Christian traditions. But go ahead and spout your nonsense. We Christians are very tolerant and not at all threatened by kiddies who want to shock the grownups.

Agreed. It would be one thing if the Danes drew cartoons in Muslim countries, but the Danes drew those cartoons within Denmark. Those darn Danes!

Tim N, I agree with you.

I have heard a few, a very few, and very softly read (or printed in small print), articles about Muslim clerics and Muslim citizens of various countries, denounce the violence as more damaging than the cartoons. But, I guess a good old fashioned riot, with lots of blood spilled, effigies burned, cars overturned, buildings damaged, and foreigners scared witless, is better press than people disagreeing in a civilized fashion with the riot idiots. Although I wish the civilized disagreers would start yelling, and maybe have a few 100,000 person marches of their own, on an embassy or whatever.

I've heard Muslims, as one previous poster said, say, "its just a cartoon." Other Muslims have told me, basically, that although its not thier way to make any kind of image of Allah or Muhammed, they can't stop anyone else from doing so. All they can do, is point out the reason why Islam doesn't do this (the risk of worshipping an idol), and if that doesn't get more than a shrug, well, we live in a country that has freedom of speech and thought and the press (well, on paper we do, anyway), and that there is a separation of religion and state (ditto) here. They have the freedom to not make an icon of Muhammed, Russian Orthodox have the freedom to make an icon of St Nicholas.

"Nola" you have been confused by my comment. I DESPISE communism. It's not surprising that you were confused, as you seem to be a Christian who believes in magical ghosts and goblins.

People who believe in Jesus AND Muhammad are just as loony as those who believe in the Tooth Fairy..... All are equally fictional.

I'm sorry I threatened your beliefs in such a harsh way. And I'll firmly stand by your side to make sure you have the right to believe......that babies come from storks, broken mirrors cause bad luck, and that Bigfoot is real. It's cute. Like a child who believes in Santa Claus.....

Keep on praying, kid. May God/Jesus/Allah/Satan/Joe/whoever strike me down if I'm lying.

The only cartoon that gets me up in arms is the Family Circus. I hate those little bastards...

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

there should be mirrors up. the transition from being able to show his face to removing it (as well as competing screeds from christian artists doing their own agit-prop) is rather interesting.

there's a definite values gap here. both the pope and some folks in the middle east have asked for a similarly impossible situation of "free speech - except when it comes to criticizing/mocking/hurting the religious." i find that gag a bit hard to swallow from folks who regularly speak of the decadent west / culture of death that allows homosexuals to run free, et al.

it's sorta kinda almost a bit remindy of the satanic verses thing, though there's a lot less bile from western sources directed towards the danes.

This poster says it all:

It's considered a crime to draw Mohammed at all. But is it a crime to BLOW PEOPLE THE FUCK UP?

What an irrelevant religion.

The 5ive Pillars of Islam

1. Blowing up anyone who isn't Muslim is OK.

2. Undermine women and make them second class citizens.

3. Drawing Mohmammed is a crime.

4. Women are filthy.

5. Any disagreements with any of these will mean an insult to Allah and will lead to #1, no exceptions.

[10] Posted by: Papercutninja | February 8, 2006 01:31 PM

Tim N.

Totally agree with just about everything you said, but what's not being mentioned too loudly is that many, MANY prominent Muslim clerics HAVE denounced the riots and violence as loudly as they've denounced the cartoons themselves. Some of my own Muslim friends have just shrugged over the whole mess saying, "Big deal, it's just a cartoon," but whether intenitonallly or not, the media is largely ignoring these voices. (Somewhat incredibly, even the newly-elected Hamas party maintained order, even protected churches in Gaza and Ramallah.)

I read about the Islamic radicals and violent fundamentalists every day, but strangely when I talk and interact with Muslims on a regular basis, my own reality stands in stark contrast to what's being reported. If it bleeds it reads, I guess. Or maybe there is a concerted effort to portray all Muslims as belligerent hotheads...

Oh, I don't know... I think George and John and Ben and Long Tom were askin' for a whole peck o'trouble. One of the reasons I love them so.

New Yorker - You are free to sit and stew over your various frustrations. But there are other newsworthy events in the world and this is one of them. Why don't you send a letter to ESPN and demand they stop covering sports until your idea of social perfection has been achieved?

Tim N. - I agree with your observations - though "asking for trouble" isn't the best way to sum up our founding principles. And I happily concede that Muslim kooks are more dangerous than Democrat kooks.

Anti-Theism - What a shame that you missed out on the opportunity to live in a religion-free zone. The Soviet Union, for example. What fun that would have been.

RE: [10] Posted by: Papercutninja | February 8, 2006 01:31 PM

ur an idiot!

These freedom-loving people also likely voted for Bloomberg, a man who wholly supported the NYPD's unlawful tactics of arresting scores of innocent people for simply voicing their dissent (or simply getting lunch near people who voice their dissent).

I find it amusing, and baffling, to read and hear the fervor of people defending the freedom of expression through the act of publishing these absolutely meaningless, unhumorous cartoons, while all the time hiding, cowering behind some lousy excuses to not report on what matters most: transparency of our own goverments, social justice, education, ignorance, bigotry, etc, in our very own societies. Get your priorities of freedom straight, people!

Hey, Nola, been a long time...

First off, name five people killed by MoveOn.org.

Now that that's off the table, I also have an issue with choosing to publicize the Ofili and not the cartoon. It's one of the rewards of violence... no one is getting killed over Ofili; and being willing to resort to self-righteous violence means you'll be less likely to have your sensibilities upset in the future.

Makes me wonder how we stay peaceful.

As for rent-a-mobs... wish you're right, pal.

Of course it is NOT illegal to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. Justice Holmes spoke only of shouting "fire" falsely. And, presumably, it is not criminal to shout such a warning in the good faith belief that there is a fire, even if it should turn out that nothing is burning.

Those who argue that at this point there is no need to show or know the content of the drawings because such inflamatory details are irrelevant to the discussion clearly have not bothered to investigate the matter. The actual content of many of the drawings has been substantially misrepresented in the western press.

Quare whether the publishers of the NY Press were being responsable in not inflaming matters, or were merely being prudent in protexcting their capital investment.