Gothamist: New York Schools Still Divided by Race

dude

Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:10:58 -0500

nola, Westchester isn't a monolithic mass of positivity --- have you seen parts of New Rochelle, Yonkers, White Plains, Elmsford, Port Chester, etc.? Some of these places could scare the pants off of the South Bronx in terms of despair and inappropriate public behavior. As a kid, I lived in Brooklyn briefly only to flee it with the w/the rest of 'white flight' in the late 70s and grew up the rest of the time in a wealthy section of Westchester (thank GOD), and I moved back up here after living in West Harlem/Washington Heights. I have no experience interacting with the schools in the city but I have experienced/witnessed the following: - My 10 year old car defaced by a not quite determined asshole in the middle of the night, apparently the loser decided to scrape F-U-C-K on the its hood (the quality of the defacing dropping dramatically after the U since well it's hard to be consistent even in ruining someone else's stuff). The owner of the car place was so stunned he didn't charge us for fixing it. - Elementary school age kids going out with their 'parents' (I put that in quotes b/c clearly this is a biological relationship and not a reflection of actual responsible behavior deserving of the designation) at 11-12 -1 AM during a weekday. Kids playing on the street with their friends late into the night instead of well, getting enough sleep to start their next day in the classroom right. - Loud music being played into the night preventing anyone holding down a JOB from having a decent nights sleep --- let alone a child. - Garbage wallpapering the streets early in the morning b/c people in the neighborhood feel it's totally acceptable to throw empty containers of food and beer on the ground. - A pile of excremement in the lobby of our now former building --- we hoped it was a large dog. This isn't a race/class thing people, this is all about values and priorities. The reason why schools in these areas fail is because the local values do not support or even condone learning, only having fun. All you flunkies accusing me of being classist or racist for bringing this shit up --- I dare any of you to live between 131st and 155th or so between Bway and Amsterdam for a week. Because any social liberal would lose their lunch even spending a night in any of these areas.

nola

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:31:32 -0500

erika - Congratulations on insulting the vast majority of your countrymen. Most people have always grown up attending schools that are predominantly one thing or another. Why would this prevent someone from "understanding what MLK was fighting for"? Should we start ordering Jews to disperse around the country because nobody can appreciate the holocaust unless they have Jews in their school? Sorry, but your comment is one long PC cliche without a shred of evidence or common sense to back it up. If black schools were graduating their students nobody would give a hoot about them being predominantly black. And I did not say that coming from a broken home entails that you are an underachiever. I'm saying it is an important predictor, and communities where out of wedlock births are the norm (like Wash Hts) aren't going to do better until this trend is reversed. Do you know that almost 70% of black children are born out of wedlock? Do you think the rate is anything like that in Westchester? You throw out the same tired phrases - racism, socioeconomic factors - without explaining why these factors are to blame.

Toby

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:27:23 -0500

And the post is still based on a faulty Post article.

erika!

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:06:19 -0500

"My point is that this post was foolish because it assumes there is something wrong with schools being predominantly black or white. People often choose to live among people of similar race and ethnicity. That is not the problem here, the problem is that predominantly black schools are underperforming. The question is why. When you can offer an answer feel free to post it, otherwise we'll assume you and Paddy are just trolls who hang around here even though you have nothing to say." nola, there is ALOT wrong with going to schools that are predominantly anything, especially in areas where there is great division through race and economic status. These students will never grow up appreciating diversity. They will never understand what MLK Jr. was fighting for. When people grow up in a comfort zone where everything is the same culturally, racially, and ecomonically, they will resent any change or anyone who is different from themselves. So while NYS, NYC, is ahead of the racial diversity game, there is still alot to be done citywide,statewide, and nationwide. Coming from a broken home does not entail becoming an underachiever. The sad fact is that divorce is prevalent, and so are single family homes. So if this is true, wouldn't that mean that a large group of students at well-performing highschools come from "broken homes??" So there goes that as a reason for why predominantly black schools are underperforming. The reason is a mix of culture, of classism, rascism, and socioeconomic status, and the money spent on these schools...the factor are many and varying in degree of blame. The "broken home factor" that you speak of nola occurs in many races and classes, so that really isnt the reason.

nola

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:34:12 -0500

Bronx Science - For all your babbling, you have not offereed one reason for the discrepencies in school performance. You go on and on about race being a factor, but how is it a factor? Are you implying certain races are inferior? Very inappropriate, particularly on this holiday. If it is relevant in some other way than just tell us how. My point is that this post was foolish because it assumes there is something wrong with schools being predominantly black or white. People often choose to live among people of similar race and ethnicity. That is not the problem here, the problem is that predominantly black schools are underperforming. The question is why. When you can offer an answer feel free to post it, otherwise we'll assume you and Paddy are just trolls who hang around here even though you have nothing to say.

bxsciencegrad

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:36:05 -0500

ok, this is the last time i'm responding because nola, you're an idiot. i forgot to type in my "name" before hitting send. didn't think it was worth it to come back and clarify that it was me. guess i was wrong... you said, "This is not a racial argument, it is a cultural one". so culture has nothing to do with race? also, to nj, reading freakonomics right now so i will not comment on their research until i've read it fully. however, i will provide some comments from a review that i've kept in mind as i read the book. source: http://www.californiarepublic.org/archives/Columns/Kirk/20051024KirkFreakonomics.html "At one point we are told that good parenting (what we do as opposed to what we are) doesn’t matter much (p.175). Elsewhere the authors assert that bad parenting “Clearly...matters a great deal” (p.153). Single-parent homes are said to be irrelevant when it comes to school performance (p.174), yet the same condition is dubbed a prime indicator of criminal behavior (p.138). On a related topic, data drawn from Chicago’s public schools are used to show that school choice, in itself, matters little (p.158). But a few pages later we are informed that the poor performance of blacks and their white classmates is caused by the abysmal quality of the schools they attend (p.165)" in addition, please put away this junk about the "race card". why is it playing a card to talk about something that has to do with the issue at hand? i believe the original title of the gothamist post was "New York Schools Still Divided by Race". that is the problem. its a not easy to discuss race because of the myriad of related issues that will inevitably need to be addressed. you can't exclude race because it makes you uncomfortable and say "it doesn't matter". i've never said that personal responsiblity doesn't play a part in the discussion. i'm all for more 2 parent homes for kids of ALL races. however, dont make a blanket statement about primary causes with no support. in any case, postings on gothamist are not going to resovle this so i'm done wasting my time typing. happy MLK Jr. Day to all.

nola

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:20:22 -0500

Bronx HS, pretending to be Anonymous - My comments about Chinatown are meant to illustrate the fact that kids who attend NYC schools receiving less funding than schools in wealthy suburbs do just fine when the are raised in an environment that stresses education and discipline. Families that do this tend to have both parents in the home. This is not a racial argument, it is a cultural one. As NJ points out, Levitt covers the numbers on this and many others do as well. Melissa - People dump money into those schools because they are successful. And they are successful because - as you point out - their students are taking cram classes and working their butts off. If kids in Wash Hts were doing the same, more of them would be getting into these schools.

nj

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:17:44 -0500

nola's right on here. people are too easily suckered into believeing anything attached to the race card. the incentives given to children to do well in school have a lot to do with a lot of things. if you want to see some really solid research that's been done on this, check out the book "Freakonomics" by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. I found Levitt's work to be quite good and it is explained well.

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:42:25 -0500

ok nola, i guess i need to be more specific. I DISAGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT: "I said that the stability of the family unit is more important than how much we spend/waste on our schools. It is also more important than race or class. The numbers bear that out, you are just too lazy to do your homework." Please explain to me how the family unit is more important that race or class? And even if you exclude race, how does class does not come into play when discussing the family unit? You're maling a comment that is based on race/ethnicity (kids in chinatown), yet you're saying that race doesn't matter. You presented a faulty logical argument. What "numbers" are you referring you that "prove this out". Please provide a link or some shred of evidence that supports this since I'm "too lazy" to do my homework. All I'm hearing is "the kids in chinatown do well, and they live in new york...so thats my evidence". Uh...try again.

Paddy

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:16:22 -0500

If it talks like a troll...and argues like a troll...

Melissa

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:48:54 -0500

Re. Nola's bit about kids in Chinatown: The kids in Chinatown and Flushing are kicking ass because they're going to cram school after school and Saturdays and Summer starting in, like,3rd grade. And, yes. It's a family values thing. However, their parents want them to go to the specialized high schools because--in addition to surrounding their kids with those who are likeminded-- Stuy, BK Tech, and Science have more money to spend. Businesses, philanthropic orgs, dump it into those schools which goes toward programs, books, and tech stuff, rather than teacher salary, which often takes up the bulk of a school's budget.

Mr.Paul

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:24:45 -0500

First off, you have to be very careful when interpreting graphs, charts, etc. Nine times out of ten, not all of the information is there to make an educated judgment. Regardless, the author is absolutely correct - NY has some of the most segregated schools in the nation. I'm not overly familiar with NYC's school system, but I'm quite familiar with Long Island's (as I'm a secondary school Social Studies teacher). I actually did my senior paper on the Amityville / North Amityville dichotomy, and I can say without a doubt that our area is one of the top socioeconomically (and, by proxy, racially) segregated school districts on Long Island. Amityville, south of Route 27a, is lily white (there was not one black homeowner in the area at the time of my report), but wealthy...so, they send all of their kids to private school. Right ON Route 27a is Amityville High School, which includes students from Amityville and North Amityville, and it is 80% minority. Why is this? I'm not going to bore everyone with a rehash of my report, but I noted some interesting developments over the past 70 years or so - mostly involving intentional segregation based on the building of Sunrise Highway (it curves only once in its whole length...around Amityville, and separating North Amityville from it), re-zoning of the school district boundaries that sent white folks a-packing, and a number of other issues. To their credit, the elementary and middle schools have worked very hard recently to gain respectable increases in standardized scores. So, white enrollment is a bit higher. But, by the time white children get to high school, they're enroute to private school (even I went to private school starting in the 10th grade). I don't know if any of this is making sense...I'm trying to post opinions based on a very long report I did last year. I guess my point is, it will be nearly impossible to integrate the schools as long as districts are segregated based on socioeconomic status. If you can't afford 600,000 dollars for a house, then you generally can't have your child educated in a "top-ranking" district ("top-ranking" being only based on standardized scores...not necessarily how good the teachers are). It's all a crying shame.

nola

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:49:35 -0500

I thought Bronx Science people were supposed to be smart! Did I say "nothing else comes into play" aside from the two parents? Of course not. I said that the stability of the family unit is more important than how much we spend/waste on our schools. It is also more important than race or class. The numbers bear that out, you are just too lazy to do your homework. Tell us more about these complicated issues. Why are kids in Chinatown doing so well? Don't they live in cramped apartments? Aren't most of their parents earning modest incomes and working long hours? Don't we spend less on their schools than schools in Westchester and Long Island? You can call me a troll but you can't touch my argument. Neither can Jake. The two of you make a lovely couple of dingbats.

bxhighschoolofscience

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:20:58 -0500

nola, please take your, "its not politically correct, so it must be true..." bull$hit someplace else. so nothing else comes into play but whether or not you have two parents at home? does it matter whether or not those two parents work? does it matter what those two parents do for a living and hence how much money and time they have to spend on education? does it matter whether or not the neighborhood that these kids grow up in is safe? i'm not saying that personal responsibility does not come into play. however, for you to make the blanket statement that "intact families" is the key, is garbage. again, not saying that having a two parent household would not help, of course it would. but it is not the silver bullet for nyc education issues that you think it is. you said that, "Clowns like Jake harp on race because it makes them feel good about themselves. Much easier than facing the truth." maybe its easier for you to think that flipping this "two parent switch" is the answer, rather than facing the truth that the answer involves dealing with a number of complicated issues including race, class and housing. you're probably a troll anyway. i usually don't respond to idiots like you, but as this is is MLK Jr. Day, i felt the need to say something.

nola

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:38:34 -0500

Anonymous - Good point about Chinatown. But the 2 parent thing is a fact. Compare out of wedlock births in Chinatown to Wash. Heights. The correlation between intact families and academic performance is higher than race, money wasted on schools or any other factor. Clowns like Jake harp on race because it makes them feel good about themselves. Much easier than facing the truth.

Mike

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:26:10 -0500

That first chart is basically worthless. In the report, it says that a "multiracial school" is a school where at least 10% of the students are from 3 out of the 5 "major ethnic groups." To compare that across states to suggest it says something about segregation is kind of ridiculous. Doesn't it seem ridiculous that 1% of black students in Mississippi attend a multiracial school? That doesn't mean that blacks and whites don't go to the same schools (maybe they do, maybe they don't). All it means is that there are no Latinos, Asians, or American Indians in Mississippi. That aside, New York State seems to have one of the best ratios of students in multiracial schools, with the exception of Nevada, at least of the ones that we can see in the chart. And most of New York state probably has numbers that look like Nebraska's and NYC, because it has so many multiracial schools, probably skews the data of the whole state to make it look quite respectable.

Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:19:20 -0500

word, nola. money helps, but it's mostly the parents and the values they instill in the kids. (although i can't agree on the 2 parents thing.) i don't think chinatown would be considered a wealthy suburb, but plenty of kids from there attend specialized high schools and go on to college.

nola

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:23:27 -0500

Wrong. It is the parents. Ask anyone over the age of 50 how many kids were in their class. Large classes used to be the norm. It wasn't a problem because the kids learned to follow the rules at home. Yes, wealthy suburbs spend more on their schools. But the amount we spend on all schools has increased dramatically. Has it made a difference? No. If more money were the answer, inner city schools would be thriving by now. It is amazing to hear what lengths people on the left will go to in order to avoid the truth.

Melissa

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:28:09 -0500

I used to teach in both NYC and Westchester public schools. Westchester public schools have the funds to spend somewhere between 20,000-25,000 per student; for NYC kids, it's significantly less. That means more kids in classrooms, fewer resources, less prepared teachers (it's at least 15,000 difference in starting salaries between suburban school districts and the city; NYC=48,000 starting salary for teachers with masters' degrees, 60+ for suburbs. By mid career, that difference can be as high as 25,000 to 30,000 spread). In addition, teaching in NYC means between 26 and 38 students per class for high school, anyway. There aren't enough books, there isn't money for technology, there's not enough for backup support for kids, teachers, etc. That said, it's not the parents, though I do think that plays a factor. It's the absolute lack of funding for schools, teachers, and kids that insure that those who stay in PS 68, or whatever, are totally short changed.

nola

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:02:08 -0500

Schools do not operate in a vacuum. The main reason "good" schools are good is that the kids live in stable homes with parents who ensure they do their homework and don't spend their lives wandering the streets or watching tv. Kids in "bad" schools come broken homes where education is often not a top priority. There is a limit to what teachers can do in this kind of situation. People who are too lazy and enslaved by politically correct thinking (like Jake) don't want to admit that the only reason black schools stink is the lack of stability in the black communities. Would anyone - including Kozol - care about these racial percentages if blacks were doing well in school?

Melissa

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:34:15 -0500

Kozol's book shows his research: I don't remember how many high schools in how many cities he visited over the course of several years, but it's over 20 and under 100. What he found is that segregation is not endemic to NYC, or one region, alone. He notes that the entire country's schools are back to how they were segregated in 1968.! NPR interviewed him a couple of weeks ago (I think it was the onpoint show?). Some of the more interesting topics addressed to what degree did desegregation in schools benefit blacks, (his view, obviously, was that it did) and what the effects are going to be now that schools have essentially ended up segregated again; why people are so complacent about it, etc. Another thread that was interesting, if I recall correctly, was that he did not support HBCU like Howard and Moorehouse as solutions.

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:40:46 -0500

nola - please explain why you think black schools suck because of kids having single parent backgrounds. do you think there is no good way for teachers to educate students if they don't have both a mommy and a daddy at home?

Clayton

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:24:46 -0500

This is not the case with public schools. All of the ghetto trash from Washington Heights, The Bronx, and Brooklyn are attending my local HS, Brandeis on 84th between Columbus and Amsterdam. These animals are making the school not even worth a glance by any parent in their right mind who live in the district. The Director of Security resigned...

Lets Segregate Jake to Retarded School

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:53:11 -0500

Jake you are a moron. Blaming school "segregation" on "Board of Education"??? First of all it's Department of Education. Secondly, students go to schools in their district. If you live in a Latino neighborhood, chances are the majority of the students will be Latino.

Toby

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:46:53 -0500

That POS Post article is typical of why I would not buy that rag. The Post story reports on a study with numbers from New York State as a whole not New York City. The Post article does not make that clear. The first sentence, "New York's schools are among the most segregated in the nation. . ." should really read "New York State's schools are among the most segregated in the nation. . ." This of course lead to the faulty Gothamist entry that contains this about one of the charts: "The first shows how few students in NYC go to multiracial schools. . .", but it should read "The first shows how few students in NYS go to multiracial schools. . ." to be correct. The only mention of New York City is in the Gary Orfield quote "We're not saying you can integrate all of New York City, but does the school system have any policy to foster integration?" The story may or may not be true, but given what the story is based on, one can just chalk it up to Gothamist being victim to fautly Post reporting. Moral of the story, if the Post says it, make sure some reputable sources are saying it to confirm it is actually true.

nola

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:37:13 -0500

Kozol is a socialist fool. Who cares if schools are integrated or not? The reason predominantly black schools stink is that most kids there don't have two parents. They won't get any better until that problem is addressed.

Jason Gooljar

Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:09:23 -0500

There is a book i'm planning on reading that deals with this issue. It is called "The shame of the nation" by Jonathan Kozol. I've heard the author on WBAI 99.5 and he is very angry about this topic. He does not hold back.