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Corcoran is reporting that the average price for a Park Slope brownstone has hit 3.35 MILLION dollars! New York Magazine has the rundown:
Yes, Brooklyn Heights’ dreamy blocks continue to be a haven for townhouse types. But Park Slope is still the center of a certain kind of Brooklyn life, and last week, when the Corcoran Group released its end-of-the-year report—painting a patchy picture of a housing market that’s up, down, and sideways, all at once—one statistic leapt off the page. The average price of a townhouse in the Slope reached $3.35 million this past year, a 90 percent increase over the last quarter of 2004.Good news! We just checked Corcoran and apparently there are still a few townhouses left at the bargain basement price of $2M+. But let's say you did decide to pony up for that $3.5M average townhouse on Garfield Street-- how much would that run you? According to the handy Corcoran Mortgage calculator, if you put 20% down ($700k), you'd be looking at a monthly payment of $16,340!!! That's sixteen thousand dollars a month to live in PARK SLOPE! Forty minute ride on the F-Train everyday for sixteen thousand dollars a month? Excuse me while we puke puke puke! [Related: Brownstoner focuses on this stuff every day, and check out the brownstone photo stream on Flickr to see what you're missing.]Admittedly, those numbers are not pure: Corcoran’s stats lean heavily on the company’s own deals and tend to focus on the upper part of the Brooklyn market. Moreover, $3.35 million is an average, not a median, so a few super-duper sales may be skewing the numbers upward. Corcoran’s sheer size, however, makes its numbers a useful guide, and other brokers report more or less comparable data. The full range these days, says Aguayo, goes from about $1 million for a South Slope eighteen-footer to about $7 million for one park-block stunner. In short, there’s little question that the neighborhood has reached Gold Coast status.
Cameraphone shot of 7th Street in Park Slope by Gak.
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That's a generous mortgage rate that Corcoran is quoting, too -- average mortgage rates have been above 6% for some time now, according to Freddie Mac and Mortgage Bankers Association data.
But aren't a lot of those buildings divided into rental units? So you'd have to take the rental income into account in offsetting that monthly mortgage payment.
Folks, Park Slope is more than the F train and strollers. It's also the 2/3, the Q, the B, and marvelous peace and quiet. There are people who actually choose to live here over Manhattan, believe it or not, so puke away.
Not that anyplace in the city merits such prices. Couldn't you own an island or something for that kind of money?
but if someone gets that inherited, they can make some serious bank...
Seriously, if I miraculously had 3.5 million to spend, I'd probably buy a nice place in Hastings-on-Hudson which is a faster commute into the city than living in Park Slope. And I'd probably have a pool!
smitty...h-o-h is NOT faster into the city than park slope. i work in midtown, used to live in H-O-H, and then in the East Village, and moved to PS and it is much faster than H-O-H, and much more liveable than the EV. I live in the north slope, (one of the named streets, not numbered) and can walk to the 2,Q,B trains and be at work in a half hour, door to desk. Granted i didn't pay $3.5 large, but i did buy a brownstone.
it is an amazing way to live in nyc, with very quick access to Manhattan, a lot of trains, but the best thing is that in PS there are such great restaurants, bars, music, and shops along 5th and 7th Aves that I don't have much of a need to go into Manhattan.
three years ago i was just as ignorant as Jake, Dude and Smitty, but moving here and buying a brownstone with two rental units to help offset the mortgage, was the best decision i ever made and is a great way to live in The City.
Whoa-- don't accuse me of ignorance about Park Slope. If there's anything I know, it's about living there, as I did for 18 years. My parents continue to live on 4th Street, where they own one of these BubbleStones. Luckily, like most old-timers in the Slope, they'll never be able to sell it (because they'd have to leave the city if they did). I love Park Slope, but you're crazy if you're spending $10+k per month to live there. For that money, you could rent a fairly huge loft downtown and avoid the commute entirely.
Jake is right. The whole trend of people moving to Brooklyn, and not even getting a discount, but essentially paying Manhattan prices, is the biggest hustle the brokers have ever managed to pull off. I am born and raised in NYC, I've lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and other than having a family, there is no reason to pay a premium to live in Brooklyn.
Some people who rent are even acting like they are getting a DEAL buy renting an apt. in BKLYN for $1500 in brooklyn, meanwhile, there are still plently of $1500 apts. in Manhattan.
Take this advice: if you find a place in brooklyn under $1100, in a decent/low-crime area, it's probably worth looking into. Anything above that, you might as well consider Manhattan as well (albeit upper Manhattan, not lower).
Dude and Jones - I'm with you. I would move to the suburbs any day of the week before I would pay top dollar to live in Brooklyn. I live in Kensington at present and have a very cheap apartment ($850/month for a studio). It is cheap but a *huge* pain in the ass a lot of the time. Very few stores are open late, the grocery stores are generally horrible, and the subway is often screwy. I lived in Park Slope and, yes, it's charming and all, but it's also a pretty long commute into the city on the F. I like Brooklyn, but I'd never kid my friends into thinking that it's super-convenient to live out there.
I don't know why so few people can conceive of the notion that a lot of us Park Slope (and Brooklyn people in general) don't want to live in Manhattan. I didn't move to Brooklyn because it was all I could afford, I moved there because I love it. I live in the heart of Park Slope, and I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather live (although Carroll Gardens is a strong runner-up). Manhattanites need to finally figure out that not everyone is jealous of their tiny apartments.
Matt, you are missing the point.
The point is that, no matter how much you hate Manhattan and love BK, you are supposed to pay a discount for not living in Manhattan. By all means, if you are a fan of BK and PS in particular, live there but don't pay that kind of price. Pay 1.8MM or something but not 3.5MM. That's all.
Yes, I live in Brooklyn Heights because I was priced out of Murray Hill. Oh, would that I could afford a super-convenient pad on 35th and 2nd...maybe when my ship comes in I'll be able to get out of this god-forsaken, landmarked, tree-lined ghetto.
This whole argument is about a fictitious issue.
First, that Corcoran figure has to be totally skewed. At the $3M-plus price point, you're talking about the most mansion-like brownstones a block or less from the park. Move a block or two down and it's 2M or less, another couple blocks, down at my humble end of the Slope, and you're just above 1M. It's a big neighborhood.
Second, there is still a substantial Brooklyn discount, even in Park Slope, compared with Manhattan. Try pricing out townhouses in the Village, the Upper West or East Sides, etc., and see what you get on a per-square-foot basis compared with Park Slope. There may be comparable prices way north in Manhattan, but those are neighborhoods themselves where one expects to pay a substantial discount and -- depending where you work/play -- they also involve a big commute. Lofts may be a better deal square-foot-wise, but again, the same is true, and more so, if you compare them with townhouses in Manhattan. The simple reason being, there are only so many private houses in NYC, and there's nowhere to build any more.
Put simply, the few people who are paying over $3M to live in Park Slope are living pretty freaking large -- and are well aware of their alternatives -- but they don't represent the average Slope house owner.
Linus does have a point-- does anyone have a price per square foot map for 2005 real estate sales in the city? Seems like a pretty obvious map, because some people do want more space for their dollar, whereas other people don't mind paying more for location.
I'd be curious to see the avg-price-per-sqft on a zipcode basis, so you could compare 11215 (center slope) to like 10012 (soho) or whatever.
again, several of you are missing the point. the whole game of real estate is not JUST what you are paying on a month to month basis, but also what you are paying on a per square foot basis. i looked for brownstones for over a year at all places in and around the city and, while park slope was certainly not the cheapest of all those, it was still cheaper, on a per square foot basis, than anything i saw in manhattan. so...on a p-s-f basis, there IS a discount relative to living in manhattan.
second of all, i pay a total of $6K per month for my mortgage, but i'm also able to rent out two floors of my brownstone for a total of $3000 in income from the two apartments. they are both large 1BRs with full baths and kitchens, air con, access to the roof deck, recently renovated with fireplace. you could never find a 1br in manhattan with those same features for $1500 per month.
So...everyone wins, the tenants, and i win b/c i'm only paying $3k per month to live in my own 2BR apartment, in my own home, take the tax deduction, and not paying rent to someone else. There's your discount to living in the city.
Finally, Jake, you are ignorant and you've proven it again, in that there are more trains in PS than the F-train. i agree that that train sucks, and that life in the south part of park slope/windsor terrace would be tough b/c of that issue. But in the central and north slope you have easy access to the B, Q, 2, 4. Where i live its much easier to get to those trains than it is to the F.
So...if you could live in a 2BR for $3K per month, with a garden, fireplace, air con, access to a huge park, all within a 10min walk to the Q or 2 train, and only 30mins door to desk, you wouldn't take it? please.
Just to amplfy Breukelyn's point -- if you're taking the F train, you're not paying $3.35M for your brownstone -- more likely half that or less.
breukelyn
Only if I did not have to deal with tenants living in the same building as me.
Maybe my post was too simplistic. You are supposed to pay a discount for not living in Manhattan that, these days, equates to paying between 1-2MM for a brownstone in PS but not 3.5MM. Better now?
That really was what Jake was saying. He knows PS and the PS prices. I assume he knows brownstones go for between 1-2MM and he is simply saying that 3.5MM is way too much.
Of course averages skew the numbers to the extremes (I'm sure we all know that - there are enough ppl who rant about this and the need to use median on curbed. Craigslit, and bstoner - so I assume gothamist readers are similarly apprised) but that high number has to come from somewhere. Someone paid more than 3.5MM to live in PS and that is what Jake finds obscene. Simple really.
I just moved from the Upper West Side to Park Slope, to a brownstone. I could have afforded any neighborhood in Manhattan. I vastly prefer Park Slope not because of its relative affordability, but because it offers small and interesting stores, small and interesting restaurants, and has a brick-and-brownstone quality that Manhattan lacks entirely. My beloved former neighborhood of the upper west side has, sadly, turned into a mall - with Gap, Baby Gap, big ugly restaurants, etc., on every corner.
I know the thing that offended me most about a lot of the postings was this Manhattan attitude that if you don't live in Manhattan, you don't live in New York, and the only reason people don't live in Manhattan is because they can't afford to. I have a lot of friends who live in Manhattan, and they love it, but its not for me. I need peace and quiet when I get home, I like not having bars right outside my window. I don't mind having a 40 minute commute (which is door to door by the way, the ride from 7th Ave to Broadway-Laffayette is 25 minutes, give or take a few minutes), becuase I don't mind sitting or standing and reading a book for a half hour.
And the "trend" of people moving to Brooklyn is not something that will pass. As Manhattan becomes increasingly a rich person's playground, us middle-classers will seek out living space elsewhere. Fortunately for us, the outer boroughs (especially Brooklyn) are filled with wonderful neighborhoods ready to accept us.
I bet 90% of the people posting in support of "so cool Brooklyn" are those ultra-white NRP hyper-liberals with that soft spoken, breathy New England/Midwestern accent or faux-accent.
"Yeah. I really like the culture here, it's so cozy yet urban."
And what stereotype would you apply to those bashing Brooklyn? Rich conservatives with faux European accents? Hyperbole is useless in everday life, so much more so on the internet.
Jnnn, you are living in a bubble.
Hey JNNN: a few thoughts -
The radio station is actually "NPR", not NRP. NPR stands for "National Public Radio". I don't know anyone who would get that wrong. Are you retarded or just ignorant?
What is a "breathy New England accent"? I grew up in Connecticut and, frankly, have no idea what that means. Are you retarded?
JNN, by implication does that mean you support ultra-right wing blacks? your posting makes no sense. you are, almost certainly, a moron.
First things first, Connecticut counts as far as I'm concerned. Italian heritage, WASP culture (note: lack of sense of humor).
Secondly, lighten the fuck up. You people take yourselves way too seriously, which makes it all the more fun to mess around with you guys. Is this the worst you've faced in life?
Thirdly, did I hit a sensitive spot or what? Don't be ashamed of who you are, because we're alll in it together in this crazy thing called life.
Yes, JNNN, Connecticut DOES "count" as New England. Do you know why? Because, in fact, it IS in New England. Wow. You really are a moron.
My friends, you're all so touchy. Let's grab a drink at the Starched Collar and settle our differences over a debate on this new anti-Modernism trend.
Man, when did NYC become so fucking uncool?
Townhouses in Park Slope vary greatly in price depending on the exact location, size/scale of the home and the embellishment.
St Johns to 5th St along 8th avenue and btwn 8th and PPW has the most expensive townhouses. The prices gradually decrease elsewhere.
Above 3 million is the top of the market of North and Center Park Slope then between 2 and 3 million, 1.3 to 2 million is the entry point.
The south and far west is clearly the most affordable part of Park Slope to buy a townhouse or a rowhouse.
Brooklyn has always had cool people, but please don't stop the influx of new cool people. the more the merrier.
The only thing that amazes me from all ot the commentary, is the short memory of folks - when I bought my Bstone in the North Slope, no one, and I mean no real estate agents thought much of the area - it was all about the center slope, and the south slope. Now its the north slope -perhaps because of the development possibilities. But hey folks - have conviction about why you buy where you buy. Do it because it meets your needs, or meets your investment criteria. The nice thing about real estate (or at least the past 10 yrs) is that over time, if you have an eye for value, the market will come your way.
I didn't want to live in Manhattan. So, I bought a place in the Slope. Now I find that I don't want to live in the Slope anymore, since I'm sick of the strollers, the "toddler mafia", etc. So, I'm looking to move somewhere else, like Bay Ridge or Ditmas. There is no one place where "everyone" wants to live.
Anonymous #32
We know where you live. We ride our strollers by you every day. You'll be sleeping with the toys tonight.
- The Toddler Mafia