Gothamist: Maybe Transit Strike Eve

Ben

Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:43:47 -0500

I love the comment about the Patriot Act. Send Toussaint (no saint whatsoever) to Guatanamo Bay! Spitzer should also enforce all levied fines and not forgive anything after the come to a miracle agreement. Let the union file for Chapter 11, everybody else is doing it..........

landry

Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:21:37 -0500

Well....I've been swung at, tripped, spit at, harassed and flashed (YES!!! FLASHED!!!) And?!?!? I PAID $2 to do it. At least they are GETTING paid. Even the ITWU has a problem with this strike, thinking it was premature and not in good faith. I would love to get paid that much without a college education and I'm sure that there are some teachers in this city who would kill to get that kind of gig. I have to clean my own desk at work and god forbid the copier gets a paper jam. I have to sometimes fix that too. Hey wait!! I should go on strike!!!

gw1306

Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:38:18 -0500

The TWU is rediculous on asking the employer for so much. In anyway, with the work attitude and their performance. I say they deserve no increase whatsoever. As any employer, there are no way to pay those people of over $50K a year with all the benefit. I would say if they really strike. Put the hefty amount of fines to the Union and fired all the worker. I am sure there are people would like to take the job for $45K a year with benefit and forget the T-sant guy. He just trying to get the best term to the member and hopefully he can be re-elected. But if he mess up this time. He is totally fxxx.

PrincessK

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:19:21 -0500

It is a shame that people can talk so negatively. It isn't about race. Imagine if you couldn't see the color of the MTA workers, just as no one can see the color of any typist typing degrading comments. Would your position still be the same? I got onto this website by accident and I'm sorry I did. Remember, there is a God and you are responsible for your actions.

Bob Dobalina

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:07:23 -0500

Hey, Tim. Subways aren't steered. They run on rails. I wouldn't even want you picking up my garbage.

Brightliner

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:06:21 -0500

"I'm still trying to figure out how all the unsatisfied workers quitting or being fired - both options suggested in this thread - is somehow preferable to a strike. At least when a strike is over, work resumes. Removing the majority or entirety of the work force gets service back when, exactly?" If a union weren't involved, there wouldn't be a contract, or at least one that covers everybody at the same time. Unsatisfied workers would quit all through the year, not en masse. Just like everybody else in any other field. "It's not like there's this great mass of people begging to be train operators. Especially without contracts." How would you know? Is there a huge number of train operator job openings sitting unfilled? Has it occurred to you that there may be plenty of people whow want to be one but can't because all the positions are filled?

rev pays

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:01:13 -0500

Not only is it close to a class war, it's a fashion war. On one side you have Kalikow and co. with their purple label suits, white collared cufflinked shirts and $200 ties and the other are ill fitted leftovers from Today's Man going out of business sale.

Dan Dickinson

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:49:18 -0500

I'm still trying to figure out how all the unsatisfied workers quitting or being fired - both options suggested in this thread - is somehow preferable to a strike. At least when a strike is over, work resumes. Removing the majority or entirety of the work force gets service back when, exactly? It's not like there's this great mass of people begging to be train operators. Especially without contracts.

peon

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:35:07 -0500

Let the class wars begin. Think about it, all of you people spitting and hissing at the TWU. Do you think they'll turn around and say "Gee whiz, I guess I'll show up to work because privileged yuppies are calling me lazy and uneducated." Apparently you really need these lazy uneducated peons to make your life better, otherwise you wouldn't be on here making comment after comment.

Greg

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:08:32 -0500

If I had a job that supposedly underpaid me and had to suffer the degredation of getting pissed on, I'd quit in a heartbeat. So why doesn't he? Because he can't make that much money doing anything else, meaning he is overvalued as a worker. A full pension by 55 is pretty cushy. Who the hell gets that anymore? Maybe the job is hard, but almost anyone can be trained to do it, meaning you are replaceable, meaning why do you deserve more money for a job almost anyone can be trained to do? Unions are so outdated and do way more harm that good and have for the longest time. The workers have an over inflated sense of importance and if their lame egos causes them to strike I just may start pissing on them too.

rev pays

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:47:58 -0500

Maybe not the Taylor Law but Union workers can always catch a variant of the "blue flu".

Tim N.

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:27:14 -0500

Jees, people!!! Miss one day and oy!!! I actually think the conductor has a point because, let's face it, if you've never worked for the TA, if you've never driven a train, then you don't know if you can. I know myself if I had to deal with the people who come up to a token booth all day long I would go postal by lunchtime. We all think (myself included)we're really smart and because we can draw or write or surf the Net or be clever on blogs that we're smart enough to work the trains or buses. But, no offense, I wouldn't want to get on any trains you guys are driving and I don't think you'd want to get on the one's that I'm steering, either (and I wouldn't blame you). I've written over the past few days about my old man who had to work under the Taylor Law for many years and as much as he hated that thing he would always say that no one wins a strike. I think we are about eight or so hours from finding out just how right the old man was (and God I hate when *that* happens).

Romary

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:23:47 -0500

Did anyone see the article in the NYT Dec 11 "The Next Retirement Time Bomb?" A small % towards your health insurance and pension isn't outrageous - better a contribution now and going forward vs. permanent unemployment

tien

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:06:44 -0500

yeah, we saw the blog too. it's kind of interesting, although somewhat lacking in posts.

twu

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:48:21 -0500

Hey look, the union has a blog (sort of). Right now it just has strike locations and instructions for what workers should do at midnight if there is a strike: http://twulocal100.blogspot.com/ (The regular site is here: http://www.twulocal100.org)

Kojak

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:32:19 -0500

They won't strike. They don't have the balls to strike. "You'll fold faster than Superman on laundry day" Bart Simpson

MT

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:13:01 -0500

Well if we're going to do this, we might as well go whole hog. Let them strike and fire them all. I'll take the inconvenience of walking 50 blocks to work while they rebuild a subway workforce and teach these guys a lesson.

Larry

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:52:14 -0500

What do you call a Democrat facing a subway strike? A Republican!

Toby

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:45:53 -0500

J.D. - Try taking the subway in DC or London at 3AM. You cannot. We have 24/7 service. One of the big problems with the system over the course of history is that it became a big political tool. For decades the fare was five cents, which was artificially low, and drove the private companies that ran the IRT and BMT to become bankrupt. Then there was the whole problem with differed maintenance of the 1970s and 1980s due to budget problems. In the past 10 years or so the infastructue has been improving infrastructure and rolling stock. Most of the signal technology used today is of an early 1900s design, and needs massive upgrades to have automation at the levels of properly funded transit agencies abroad. One of the things that the MTA was supposed to do was to take revenue monies from the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority and put that towards funding transit, giving a stable soruce of funding - in theory. We all know the MTA is a boondoggle, with people from the state, city, northern suburbs and the island all wanting their peice of the pie. Historically, the more suburban services, like Metro-North, have smaller sized (percentage wise) fare hikes than the NYCTA. However, the railroads seem to run more efficently than the NYCTA.

pugsley

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:43:08 -0500

Seems like the elephant in the room is the MTA demand that workers pay 2% of income towards pension and health. The MTA is trying to gently break the surface of the overly generous 'set for life' pension plan. Union is probably willing to go along with it, but will get an above average pay increase in return. I predict that talks will be extended through the weekend as workers stay on the job and a comprise late sunday night. Where can I place a wager.

Youth of Today

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:33:38 -0500

Wow, that little diddy reminds me of some old hardcore tunes. Are the liberal super-socialists going to start singing "This land is your land" now too. If you do not like your job, get a new one. That is my power where I work. The problem the union people are finding themselves in is that there are no other jobs like the one they have (money and benefits). Look at GM or Delphi, those union people are just as retarded and will soon start to find themselves without a leg to stand on. I do not feel the least sympathetic for these union people. Of course the MTA is to blame for the whole bargaining process that has yielded the current disparity in wages and benefits (from the median of the surrounding areas) but now is the time where they can start taking back. By 2007 all communities will have to make their health care pension obligations available and the numbers coming out of NYS will give the citizens a giant reason to push for 401(k)s for public employees and an increased retirement age. The MTA and the govt has a chance now to take the first step in the right direction, not for themselves, but for us, the tax payer who cannot afford the mounting debt and inevitable tax increase to pay for them. Strike, strike, strike! Go for it and you will help make the future better once we smack your asses down.

Larry Littlefield

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:27:11 -0500

(My question is this: Was the holiday discount worth it?) No, it was stupid. Same with the $400 rebate on property taxes. OTOH, when the real estate market returns to normal and the deficit returns, the discount will disappear. Not so a pension increase, or a wage increase relative to inflation. Just as the "free" 2000 pension deal didn't disappear when the stock market returned to normal. Now, a one-time only non-pensionable bonus for employees with part of the surplus, which could be repeated if dedicated MTA tax revenues permit, wouldn't have that problem. But the surplus is illusory. The plan is for $450 million to go to the pension hole. The rest should have gone to lower debts. Instead the MTA pandered to those whining about the fare, just as others pander to those whining about taxes, and the TWU whines about all those people who will unfairly get to retire at 67 when they have to work until 55. You can pay more now or...

mrf

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:26:51 -0500

Anyone think a strike will really happen? I think it's very unlikely.

RGB

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:22:30 -0500

Solidarity Forever When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run, There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun; Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one, But the union makes us strong. CHORUS: Solidarity forever, Solidarity forever, Solidarity forever, For the union makes us strong. Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite, Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might? Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight? For the union makes us strong. It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade; Dug the mines and built the workshops, endless miles of railroad laid; Now we stand outcast and starving midst the wonders we have made; But the union makes us strong. All the world that's owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone. We have laid the wide foundations; built it skyward stone by stone. It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own. While the union makes us strong. They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn, But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn. We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn That the union makes us strong. In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold, Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand-fold. We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old For the union makes us strong.

sandra

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:22:13 -0500

I disagree, Samantha. I think the strike shows how the TWU is no longer working and should no longer be able to hold us or the city finances hostage. I kind of agree with the folks who have said they can find other work the same way we can.

J.D.

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:21:10 -0500

On previous posts I think the message has really started to come through. And that is the people that will be hurt by this potential strike will be the people who dont live within walking distance of their jobs, or know of people to car pool with, or will have their sick/personal days used up. How selfish can you get TWU/MTA??? I, for example, live in Washington Hts and have a part-time job in Chelsea that I absolutely need to go to help pay for the simplest of one's needs, i.e. food, drink, rent. I am scheduled to work fri/sat/sun, and tell me how the hell am I to get to work that is 148 blocks away in December? It'd be one thing if this was May, but seriously, walking and biking in 20 degree weather just so the TWU gets a 6% increase and can retire when they are 50 is absolutely not worth it! Honestly, I have been to other major metropolitan areas and used their subways (Washington DC, London, Paris) and they were far better then what the MTA is offering. Shame on both sides for letting it reach this point.

g

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:18:31 -0500

Wow. So much hatred for "hipsters" and so little compassion for the real working class people in the outerboros who take subway rides of 1 hour or longer to get to work. Will you be laughing at them as they walk from the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn, too?

Samantha T

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:11:31 -0500

"Hardly any of us get the kind of benefits any more that the TWU is demanding. All of us workers have been devalued continuously over the last 30 years by the rapacity of the rich and powerful. Today, we see private companies ditching their pension schemes left and right. That is why the TWU's strike threat seems so unfair. Why should they be entitled to something the rest of us can't even dream of anymore?" THIS IS PRECISELY WHY THE TWU IS STRIKING. A labor union acknowledges that it often has an adversarial relationship with management. The strike should seem MORE fair because of the way private companies can treat their employees. Their employees have no leverage and unions do. Direct your anger at how you're treated as an employee at the appropriate entity - your employer.

Brightliner

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:10:25 -0500

I'm kind of hoping there'll be a strike. With luck, those huge fines will break the union once and for all and we won't have to suffer their strike threats ever again. I lived through the 10-day long 1980 strike, too. Funny thing is I don't remember anything about it. Then again, I was only three miles from my high school and I didn't mind hoofing it as long as it wasn't killer cold, so it wouldn't have been too much inconvenience.

Shovel

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:01:44 -0500

Both the lazy, ne'er-do-well, good-for-nothing "hipsters" contingent and proud, Ah-MUR-ican, "real," working-class folks with their hearts of gold are always the ones covering for the Metro North people during snowstorms and other disasters (like children's doctor's appointments that render them available only from home for the day). If there's a strike, at least the tables will be turned. Let them cover for US for a change. :)

Johnie

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:57:37 -0500

My question is this: Was the holiday discount worth it? They spent $90 million on the discounts that nobody really uses [$1 trips on weekends, extended monthly cards, etc]. But what is the point if the trains aren't running? Like I said in the previous discussion about these discounts, I would have rather see them use it to shore up their finances then splurge it on these unnecessary excesses. But .. I don't really care if they go on strike. I'll be on a 2 week vacation starting tomorrow so I don't have to deal with it. Plus, I live 3 blocks away from my office in midtown. And yeah, like others have said, I'm looking forward to see the hipsters having to walk across the Brooklyn bridge to work. If I were around, I'd probably setup a lawn chair on the bridge to point and laugh :)

PS

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:49:47 -0500

Selfish, selfish, selfish. All sides. TWU, "the man," everyone. Everyone just needs to hug and french kiss and then to get back to their freaking jobs. Maybe I'm naive, but sorry, life's hard, deal with it. America's effed up, deal with it. Or, stop bitching and work towards changing it. I can't believe this post has already brought up terrorism - brilliant! Hell, maybe that's the problem with TWU - everyone thinks their own opinions are important. They're not, DEAL WITH IT!

cb

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:48:23 -0500

when the MTA asks for the next, inevitable fare increase to fund its mounting debt and pension burdens, who's side will you be on? Well, if the MTA would open their books, we'd know how much of a fare increase would be due to labor costs and how much to straight-up political graft or rampant mis-management of funds. Where did this 1 billion dollar surplus appear from, for example, given the financial doom-and-gloom coming from the MTA board throughout the past few years?

please

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:43:01 -0500

As much as I'd like to see transit workers receive wages that stay ahead of inflation, decent medical benefits, and safe working conditions, I fail to see how a strike accomplishes any of those things. The problems will still be there when the picket lines break up; the union might win some concessions now, but they'll end up giving much more back down the road. A strike in the long run does a lot more damage to the union than the MTA. The TWU seems to be suffering from the same poor leadership that is crushing the Transit Authority. Hopefully this all can be resolved in a way that doesn't do injury to the TWU's working brothers and sisters in other industries.

CS

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:41:19 -0500

Hardly any of us get the kind of benefits any more that the TWU is demanding. All of us workers have been devalued continuously over the last 30 years by the rapacity of the rich and powerful. Today, we see private companies ditching their pension schemes left and right. That is why the TWU's strike threat seems so unfair. Why should they be entitled to something the rest of us can't even dream of anymore?

mrf

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:33:54 -0500

As Bloomberg negotiated with the sanitation workers, if you want a pay increase beyond inflation you need to improve productivity. The workers are opposed to the entire slate of suggestions proposed by the MTA, so I don't see why raises above 2-3% are "owed". And to those supporting the unions demands for 8% raises and moving the retirement age to 50 -- when the MTA asks for the next, inevitable fare increase to fund its mounting debt and pension burdens, who's side will you be on?

Jean

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:32:56 -0500

the hipsters in Brooklyn will ride their retro bikes to work. the people that will truly be affected by this strike are the real working class people who live in non-gentrified parts of the outer boroughs.

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:31:26 -0500

Here is what I got in our company email yesterday: "Please be advised that the New York office intends to remain open for business as usual in order to service the needs of our clients in the event of a strike. However, should you be unable to come to work during the strike, your time will be charged to vacation time until it is exhausted, and then personal/sick time until exhausted." Thanks MTA! Guess I am walking in from Brooklyn or not getting paid

LK

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:29:52 -0500

Well, let's see... without contract a NYC public HS teacher can start out of college at 32,000. He will work weekends and summers, get cut up, punched, pissed on etc. He will work early morning, late night, and be expected to pay part of the salary back for receiving "on-the-job" training. Meanwhile he will pay for school loans they took out to earn their degree. A police officer- who really might get shot, earns about the same. Why should the lazy and stupid human detritus that fail to pick up garbage in the subway earn 10G more? The comments from the MTA workers sum their position up nicely. However, to lend the personal touch I would like to mention the numerous rude, non-english, responses I've received, the muslim woman in her burka that refused to answer questions in her booth (because she was busy talking on the phone), the bus drivers on the B41 line who would only stop if another black person was waiting for the bus- all of these have somewhat depleted my sympathy for this union. Immigrants are festering like boils over the infrastructure in this city. I can fix all of this in two seconds. Replace these filthy, retarded, pigs with Katrina displaced Americans. Americans who know when to strike - when you have to, when people will join with you. Americans who know the value of a decent pay for a decent day’s work. I'll drive a damn train for 40G a year. I'd love to. Try having some ignorant immigrant threaten to kill you because they're too stupid to add correctly. Replace all of these clowns with good people from Mississippi and Louisiana. They'll only strike at a fiscally meaningful time, when there’s motivation other than selfishness. These people are unhappy with their jobs, let them get other ones. If the MTA is so terrible they can join the Army. And need I point out the idiocy of having non-loyal immigrants running a terrorist target?

rev pays

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:21:51 -0500

If my comment does not apply to you, then don't sweat it. I went through the strike in 1980, guess what? The company and employees survived. What did we do? We woke up early like we usually do and we carpooled out to the factory in LIC. (I made little over min wage but had an excellent Union, the bakers and confectioners union) I'm assuming every company, large or small, are making plans at this moment because when the talk of strike was up again a few yrs back my company was all up in e-mails regarding corp housing, carpools and alternate work sites. Why don't we look at the MTA and not the TWU? We know they're not getting 8 percent, that's just the starting point. The UFT and PBA didn't get that.

ryan edwards

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:13:36 -0500

if the supposed conductor's quote above is to be taken at face value, why doesn't he look for another line of work like almost everyone of us would do? what a joke... and Jen, why would you even post that?

Larry

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:10:15 -0500

I hope there is a strike, just so all the "hipsters" who live in Brooklyn get fired from their temp jobs because they can't get to work. And then commit suicide out of the sheer boredom of being stuck in that wasteland 24/7.

Jean

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:04:35 -0500

Who are you talking about rev pays? Most of us strongly rely on the MTA and will be terribly hurt by a strike. However, we are fully aware that the transit workers have nothing to whine about. At my job, workers do not make a cushy 55k average, we do not have a salary in perpetuity and we contribute 15 percent toward our health coverage. The transit workers have to realize that they have it good. If they were working for the private sector with their non-existent skill sets, they wouldn't get anything close to what the MTA pays them.

rev pays

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:49:00 -0500

I hope there is a strike. If that's the most inconvienence one ever encounters, one should only be so lucky. The rest of you can get to work on your helicopter landing on the rooftop. The TWU should use this strike to put pressure on MTA at Madison ave to open it's books and have independent audits. Anything to keep an eye on Kalikow and co. A surplus??? In the end, who cares, as long as you get back to your suburban home and your private heliport in your backyard.

jay lee

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:42:40 -0500

I think the union is out of line on this one. I for one would love to a) make the salaries they provide, b) be able to retire with a fully funded pension at 55, c) have the medical coverage they have. This strike is rediculous. They see some cash on the table and the vultures come out. I for one would like to see the city not budge on this, I think we could use that money to pay for construction projects which would also create jobs. Also, this strike will cause trauma throughout the city - ambulances stuck in traffic, healthcare workers not being able to get to work, businesses continuing to decide to leave the nyc area for the suburbs. If I woke up and decided I needed to make more money, what recourse do I have -- to look for another job, there is nothing stopping them from doing the same. I think this strike is unjustified.

prl

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:38:35 -0500

So I work at a hospital and we are obligated to come into work, obviously. We have been given no choice--sick days and emergency personal days will not be accepted durng the strike. All of this because train conductors want an 8% raise. I take care of sick people and I don't expect much more than a 3.5% annual raise. It's all pretty fucked up in teh grand scheme of things...

Larry Littlefield

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:37:37 -0500

Actually, I'm surprised by the level of flat out insults on this board, regardless of ideology. The issue is this (and yes, I'm in a position to know, and in great detail). The MTA is a subsidized service, and loses money on every ride. Since 1990, the amount of general tax revenue going to support the required, ongoing reinvestment in the system has been slashed. The MTA borrowed to make up the difference. (The MTA board should have resigned in protest). Public employees, particularly TWU employees, tend to retire younger after working fewer years than others, with increasingly-expensive health benefits. These benefits were enormously enhanced by the state legislature, outside of collective bargaining, in 2000. The TWU is demanding a further pension enhancement (full retirement at 50) as part of its strike threat. At the same time, governments in New York were cutting their contributions to the pension funds, diverting the money to more politically potent short term priorities. This increased the pension hole. Note that the City of San Diego is about to go bankrupt as part of a similar richer benefits/lower payments in contribution. And, from 1995 to 2002, the fare was not increased with inflation. In fact, as a result of a growing number of discounts (11 for 10, free transfers, unlimited ride), the real fare actually fell even as costs (wages, health care) rose. Everybody wins. So the projection is that in a couple of years half of all fare revenue will go to pension contributions and debt service. New York City Trnasit (where I once worked but no longer do) can run the system with the other half. A real estate boom, and the funding of the 2005-2009 capital plan (perhaps the last one) with still more debt for ongoing normal replacement has covered up the problem for now. Note that our wonderful elected officials handed out the benefits from 1995 to 2002. Then they left the "unaccountable" MTA to hand out the pain. That's why Pataki is leaving the state. So the question is, out of whose hide will this come? In addition, of course, to future generations. We can only hope that our future is so screwed at the federal level that our problems relative ot other parts of the country will seem mild.

dhex

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:36:53 -0500

"What ever happened to New Yorkers supporting our working class brothers when they're in a hard situation" you should use whatever middle american liberal arts school churned you out as the burnt husk we see today. 47k a year is not working class. it's not even close.

mig

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:35:29 -0500

i'd like to any of y'all spend a day on the job as a transit worker and revisit your opinions about the right to strike.

Lar

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:33:48 -0500

I'm pro-union, but that conductor is really being stupid. I mean, which job isn't harder than it looks? WTF is with the "you don't know unless you are one" thing?

Shovel

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:32:56 -0500

Salaries, unions, and working conditions notwithstanding, let's focus for a minute on something important...if they DO strike tomorrow, I'd like to know what the creative-minded folks have in mind for the next big fashion faux pas. Keeping in mind that the awesomely horrible running shoe-power suit combination was the result of the 1980 strike, what do tomorrow's pedestrians have in mind? Someone may have the opportunity to make a huge splash in pop culture tomorrow for the next 20 years. Who will make a difference?

Jim

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:30:18 -0500

You'd think that if being a conductor was such a shitty, thankless, dangerous job, the union would want to start getting rid of the positions and start moving over to OPTO. Whoops! Guess not. Hmmm...

actual person

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:22:37 -0500

I didn't realize how many readers of this web log were right-wing racist union-buster scabs. What ever happened to New Yorkers supporting our working class brothers when they're in a hard situation? Now I know by we have a Republican governor and mayor.

Publius

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:19:37 -0500

What all you left-wingers are forgetting are such economic concepts of inelastic supply and monopoly--I'm not going to use the subway more or pay more for the ride because people are nice to me, or because you're a trained professional. I'm only going to care about that once the lack of training means that using the system to get me to and from the office every day is too risky for the money I'm paying to use it. Market theory also suggests that people are paid based on demand for scarce skills *and* the perceived economic value of the services they provide, not their social utility and the rarity of their skills in isolation. Sure, conductors may appear to be "underpaid" because Derek Jeter fetches $19 million a year, but the only thing that proves is that not everything of importance to us can be valued in dollar terms. Almost any schmuck can put himself in a position to get a BA and become a teacher; not every schmuck can hit AL pitching. At the same time, nobody seems to want to pay me for knowing all this useless subway trivia, no matter how rare a skill that might be. Also, if there were competition for operating interlocking plants on subway systems, then towermen would make more money. But there are only two providers of that service in New York, and they use different signaling systems. So it doesn't matter how much training you have, or how rare you are; paying more than necessary even for certain rare skills is dumb when there's no other demand for those services elsewhere. The market has spoken.

Eryximachus

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:14:30 -0500

No one is mentioning the real reason they are striking: They know that their jobs are easily replaced by machines, and that the MTA is working towards that end right now. Go to Europe. Many of their trains are completely automated.

dhex

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:08:25 -0500

"To be honest, NONE OF YOU can have any argument or discussion with me about what transit workers deserve or what they don't deserve." except that we pay your salary, snapperhead.

Toby

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:57:53 -0500

Some random thoughts: Driving a subway train is not easy, but a reasonably competent person can figure it out quickly. (Don't ask and it was a full on simulator.) If anyone should be getting a raise its the NYPD and FDNY. They have working conditions that are far worse. Is there any way to invoke the Patriot Act on Roger Touissant and his cronies if the do strike? I think it would be a good idea to leave town for a three day weekend tonight, and see what happens.

chris

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:35:26 -0500

The Times says that Pataki - who is nominally in charge of the MTA board, since the MTA is a state agency, not a city agency - made some lame statement yesterday before taking off for New Hampshire. WTF? Dude, you're still the governor. Put aside your hopeless presidential aspirations for a day or two and force a settlement. Or is he such a complete lame duck that he just doesn't matter to the process?

control supervisor

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:32:05 -0500

What you right-wingers are forgetting is supply/demand. The demand of the services the subway provide is quite high. So the value goes up, regardless of the entry-level requirements. The number of times you're helped by a cop is quite low compared to the number of times you ride the subway. The amount of times you're taught by a third grade teacher is minimal compared to the amount of times you ride the subway. Let's say all Wall Street brokers organized a strike for a day. Let's say all real estate agents organized a strike for a day. These are people who produce very little tangible work, yet get paid a whole lot. At least the subway operators are doing something you KNOW you really need. Otherwise, we wouldn't be arguing about it for the zillionth time. It's a lot more skilled work than most people realize, especially when you consider that the subway lines have extremely outdated interlocking systems. It's all based on a high degree of skill, and it's amazing how much supervisors do with such old technology. These guys should get a raise for their rare skills, and they endure years of training and experience to get to those positions (they aren't the entry-level token booth workers everyone thinks the TWU is wholly consisted of). Think it's easy? Download this NYC subway simulator and see if you can make hundreds of trains show up on time during rush hour.

timbnyc

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:31:58 -0500

It's not true that people have legal recourse today - for example, remember the migrant workers who got stiffed by KBR's subcontractors doing Katrina clean-up? It turns out that Mississippi has no laws against not paying one's workers, and doesn't even have a labor department! Mississippi officials told the workers that their only recourse was to sue in civil court. Some remedy.

S.D.

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:31:10 -0500

Ignoring the race baiting... IMO, repeat IMO, Unions are necessary. The Alternative would be to "trust" business/the city. To be frank, business is out to make money, nothing more. In the case of the City, the City takes advantage of laws to prevent strikes. The Police and Firefighters went with out a contract for quite sometime. Being a City or MTA employee is NOT indentured servitude. If they go on strike, so be it. As for laws against exploitive practices: These laws only work if enforced. I've no real confidence the they would be, especially in light of how long it took to get the Police and Firefighters a contract.

Publius

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:26:32 -0500

First of all, "monkeys" is way out of line. In addition to the crystal-clear overtones of racial prejudice loaded into it, it's not fair. True, monkeys can be trained to be helpful to humans, but none of them could be trained to announce stations. These are people--and people without college educations are still people, not "monkeys." Let's not be so condescending; it's bad enough to be pissed on literally. That being said, however, the idea that somebody has to be on the inside to have an opinion is a classic argument-ender, and not a very good one. It's the sort of nonsense professional athletes and political insiders use all the time to respond to what could be valid criticism. The reason that many people dislike transit workers is that they've had unpleasant experiences with them. That still doesn't make them monkeys. Jerks, maybe. But you can probably say the same thing about your family members and professional colleagues, too.

homeopt

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:19:11 -0500

I love the passive aggressiveness of racists.

MT

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:16:44 -0500

I think we seriously need to wonder if there is a place in modern America for unions. When they were originally formed, people didn't have the legal recourse they have today. Laws against exploitive practices have made unions obselete in my opinion. They are dinosaurs who have degenerated to the level of mafia thugs.

?

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:15:43 -0500

You're right -- I don't support unions. Any of them. Organized labor is an idea that has outlived its usefulness. If the union does strike, Pataki should pull a Reagan and fire them. All of them. It won't help anyone get to work since no one will be driving the trains, but it's the right thing to do. All that said, the MTA is equally at fault in all this.

Mike

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:15:18 -0500

These monkeys need to get an education and pursue better skill sets in order to aquire other real forms of work. "Oh no, I'm a janitor and I have to mop up toilet stalls. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I GO THROUGH." I will be mired by debt for a significant portion of my life, but it is well worth it in the end.

cb

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:10:37 -0500

for example, public school teachers worked for years without a contract, because the job had to get done. Doesn't this just underline the necessity of a strike for the TWU's members? Striking is always and should always be a last resort for unions, but if workers aren't allowed to strike in order to pressure management, I don't see what is there to ensure that management is acting in good faith during contract renegotiations. I think the teacher's union and the police union have all given great examples on the total lack of power organized labor has in the absence of a strike. I'm sympathetic to riders who would be inconvenienced by a strike, too, but if the position one advocates is one of "I support unions, but just not in THIS case," I've got news for you: you just don't support unions.

p

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:07:28 -0500

holy crap..

Not reading your replies

Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:00:32 -0500

With all the ghetto train conductors, you'd expect me to believe that they deserve a higher salary with their high school education? Yeah my statements can label me racist but cops get shot at and they get paid half as much. And with that salary and your empty threats for an unionized extortion, I'd have the urge to piss on you too. You guys deserve 40-50K tops, which is pretty damn good for people without a college degree.