This is what makes New York, "New York" people. if you ever live somewhere else you will miss these simple little things as I did.

my wife is a handbag designer. she's not worried about the foot rubbers taking her job, but she is worried about the Chinese gangs importing millions of dollars worth of handbags taking her company's thin margins further into the toilet. I think people should stop burying their heads in the sand and wake up to this organized crime situation.

"So let's be realistic and not enforce any laws. Park where you want...kill your wife..."

Yeah, exactly my thoughts!

Of all the ills in this city counterfeiting is the least by a long shot. And comparing selling fake bags to murder is hillarious!

The anonymous nature of your posts makes me think that you don't wnat to be seen as anythng but a crank. And for that I applaud you!

I also applaud the fact that you seem so damned angry about fake bags being sold on Canal Street yet you seem to say nothing about the drug trade that exists there as well and the prositution that exists there as well. Nobody needs that many "Foot Rubs".

So concentrate on logo copyright violations. That's the cranks reason to exist for this week.

It's not the manufacturers that bother me. I have no trouble living next to the producers of this stuff. I moved my family to Tribeca to avoid the bedroom community boredom. But that doesn't mean I want to live next to the illegal operation that's selling the stuff with impunity next door to me.

If I follow his logic, Jack is against software piracy because it's too easy and doesn't employ anyone. But because sweatshops making bootlegs provide jobs we should give them a pass. Well, how about I set up a real factory making fake infant formula and your kid dies as a result it's OK? Capitalism without laws makes for a very scary world but Jack thinks realism is the answer. So let's be realistic and not enforce any laws. Park where you want...kill your wife...hey, everyone's doing it! Some law isn't going to STOP people from speeding so drive as fast as you want.

The idea that we should just throw up our hands and let nature take its cours and let these operators who don't pay taxes or import duties and sell without paying sales taxes and pay their workers in cash without benefits or social security take over is just too depressing for some of us.

Yet when someone puts up a sign and calls attention to it and they're the ones called names like "Quack Job." I didn't make the sign but I applaud it. Wish I'd thought of it.

Those of us in the creative professions who design things for a living don't look at these counterfeiters as innocent manufacturers. The sooner the B&T customers get it the better.

this is absolutely fascinating. what a quack job to put up the sign. way to obfuscate the issue. but still. fascinating dicussion

Regading what Scared Tribeca said:

"OK, so being a realist you let the counterfeiters slide. Except when it comes to software? Now who's being unrealistic!?!?"

??? Don't understand the argument. But software copying does not require too much manufacturing effort. If you can figure out how to get past copy protection, anyone can copy software. It's painfully easy. But all of the effort to create the value of the software comes from programmers who spent hours/days/years to put the material together. Copying a CD is very easy and the only person making the effort is usually the person who wants the copy, but the drain is quite great on the company that spent the $$$ to develop the item.

In contrast, the creation of a bag or shoe is a tedious per-product trial. Each bag must be made by hand or managed--as it comes off of a machine--by a human. This is regardless of whether the item is bootleg or not. And in the case of brand name items, the branding/logo is the only thing of value. Sure lots of effort is put into pushing and branding something. But I don't see brands as being that difficult to create when compared to complex computer programs.

The machine that drives the brand/logo counterfeit market is simply the consumber desire to own a bag/shoe with a name connected to it.

"Believe me, the backlash is a grassroots affair. People who live next to these peddlers are fed up."

Well, how about this scenario. The same people are there but they are not making fake/bootleg items. You'd probably feel the same, right? Then that's the reality of living next to manufacturing. Regardless of things being fake or not, manufacturing is not pleasant. If you can grasp that difference then you'd understand the issue you have is not with the counterfeiters but with manual labor being next door. Manufacturing has existed in Tribeca--and SoHo--for years; bootleg and otherwise.

Regading what Vic said:

"Are you serious? Coach and Kate Spade and others spend millions fighting c-fitters. Why would they do that if they weren't losing money?"

They are protecting a brand and their legal might. If they don't fight they can't assert their ownership of the brand. It has more to do with the concept of making an effort so the brand is not completely trampled into the ground. If they really wanted to shut these places down, they could do so in a second.

Also to echo what 'swift' says, the market for bootleg and legit items are two different things. Have $20? You can own a bootleg bag. But few of the people who pay $20 for a bag will actually ever pay $200 for the same legit version of the bag.

Two clearly different markets. And if anything, from the few brand obsessed people I have met, they often buy bootleg items while saving to get a real item. The bootleg item acts as a brand-advocate for the average person. How many people would really know or care about who Louis Vuitton is if it was not for the tons of bootleg items one sees every day?

The target demographics for real luxury items and counterfeit items are highly dissimilar. The consumer interested in purchasing something from LVMH isn't interested in the quality of the merchandise, they are interested in the branding and design. You don't buy counterfeit if the entire point behind getting the latest LV bag is the BRAND.







The people aiding the grey/black trade on canal are the BnT crowd and tourists in general, not cost-minded consumers.

"low-production value"

It's better written than the average Gothamist post....

"Kate Spade is not losing sales because someone is selling a fake bag on the street." Are you serious? Coach and Kate Spade and others spend millions fighting c-fitters. Why would they do that if they weren't losing money? True, some bad companies are mean to their workers or are unethical, but does that mean I want to take fake Lipitor because Merck also made Vioxx?

OK, so being a realist you let the counterfeiters slide. Except when it comes to software? Now who's being unrealistic!?!? Believe me, the backlash is a grassroots affair. People who live next to these peddlers are fed up. Of course the pirates and counterfeiters will always be with us, but we all have limits, right? And if you any spend time downtown lately you'll see that these guys have stepped way over the line. It's out of control. It is NOT hyperbole to say that they're getting into selling fake prescription drugs...in Tribeca they already are! I estimate the counterfeiters at the unmarked building on Broadway next to mine are doing double or triple the business the legit stores renting next to it are. The guy renting them the space says he can't kick them out--the co-op disagrees and is suing him, however--the cops say they can't bust the counterfeiters without a specific warrant for each of the ten or so illegally constructed rooms they've created in this not-so-little (5,000 sq. ft.) nest of theirs. They throw trash everywhere. They take loud deliveries at all hours of the night. And they've threatened people to keep quiet about it. It's a nightmare. Wherever you live, just hope it doesn't happen to you.

Working conditions for ALL garment workers suck. Louis Vuitton handbags might be made in France, but do you actually think those workers are treated with benevolent kindness by LVMH? Do you think they're paid higher than the workers at the old navy plant down the road?

Fuck no, Vuitton is a business designed to make money.

Besides, a helluva lot more bootleg status handbags and accessories go through ebay every day than canal street.

"The Marxist-Leninist case for supporting counterfeiters and their ilk is laughable-"

I love when anonymous posters make hyperbolic claims based on diagreeing.

I'm not pro-counterfeiter as much as I am pro-reality. And quite abivalent about counterfeit goods because it's a fact of life and a sign of a strong brand. Kate Spade is not losing sales because someone is selling a fake bag on the street.

Also one of the biggest arguments against counterfeiting is that people who are forced to work making such goods are doing so in horrible conditions. No kidding. But you know what? Those same conditions exist for legit items. My perspective from my own experience is if you have some deep-down beef against liscensing and royalities, well then counterfeit goods is a problem. In software I'm in agreement; it's a killer. But like the other Gothamist piece on Odwalla's working conditions and the NYU ban point out, even legit companies treat workers horribly.

I'm much more of a capitalist and a realist. And I personally think that a lot of this counterfeit backlash is being done by legit companies to avert eyes from the working conditions in their own legit factories.

The mixing up of counterfeit goods and working conditions is a muddled concept at best.

Dealing with the evil Chinese Communists is starting to bite us all in the ass. Counterfeits and cheap crap at Wal*Mart go hand in hand. If I were in charge, I would restrict all US trade with China and recognize Taiwan as the real Chinese government. Then hopefully one can go out and buy somehthing not made by Chinese prison labour and breaks in a few months. The ChiComs can go abuse their own citizens all they want, lets just not subsidize the bastards.

I can't figure out why Jack is so pro-counterfeiter. Your mom worked in a nasty factory? So your point is today your mom would be out of work because counterfeiters would have taken her job and therefore she'd be happier to be out of work? I guess the poor souls working in Bangladesh (or Shanghai) don't care if they're making counterfeit Nikes or the real thing. Many of them are happy to be working period and not starving like they are in factory-less Africa. But the folks in Portland who DESIGN those shoes care about those fakes. Those are good jobs Jack wants to give up to...to whom? For what?

The Marxist-Leninist case for supporting counterfeiters and their ilk is laughable--they're helping to stick it to the man (even if in this case, the man is Calvin Klein) and bring down the system! Right. Those fake Fendi bags really say "Viva La Revolution."

The best argument FOR counterfeiting is that the trade in Chinatown is part of the local color. It BRINGS tourists to the area. It stimulates trade. This might have been true years ago. Certainly, after 9/11 ANYTHING that brought folks to downtown and Chinatown in particular was to be encouraged. But that little flame of hope has turned into an out of control brushfire.

What amazes me is that the folks in City Hall and Albany (brand-loving Republicans for the most part) who are letting this real cancer spread from Canal Street. Could it be some of them have a piece of the action? Think that's scary? Read on.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/06/08/tech/main204060.shtml

http://www.gphf.org/web_en/projekte/minilab/hintergrund_arzneimittelfaelschungen.htm

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1780818

"I love that people like Jack think these are factory overruns ... These guys are the Sopranos East. Today they're stealing from easy targets."

Be careful who you talk to dear anonymous 'Scared Tribeca'. Some of us have had first-hand experience in how the 'rag business' works. My mom worked in sweatshops making legal Jordache, Levis and Sergio Valente stuff back-in-the-day. It wasn't great but the idea that the bootleg market creates bad work conditions and mob-like influence is laughable. Even without a black market, poor people would still have crappy work conditions.

Triangle Shirtwaist company is an example. So is virtually any factory. Heck, hipster-beloved American Apparel is not that great either.

Wherever you have masses of immigrants doing menial labor you'll have mafia-esque thugs. And that's not going to change. And FYI, mafia-esque doesn't even mean real mafia. Just bullies. They've always existed.

Do you think the bags made in the Louis Vuitton store were made by well taken care of staff with full benefits and healthcare?

"They're skimming off Kate Spade's, Louis Vuitton's and Time Warner's money, but what's to stop them from selling counterfeit aircraft parts, medical devices, and just-about-anything-else-you-can think-of?""

Hyperbolic nonsesne. The same mentality that equates pot smoking to herion addiction. If there were real money to be made in bootlet aircraft parts, then you'd see an epidemic of problems. In any trade there will be knock-offs, but the reason bootleg fashion bags are so lucrative is because the cost is less then $10 and the profit is practically anything above that. The margins are better and the lure is real.

Don't be so niave. The counterfeiting business stretches far and wide, from medical pills, hospital equipment, motorcycles, car parts, to soaps and shampoos.





http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_06/b3919001_mz001.htm

BusinessWeek issue covered this issue earlier this year. Cheers.

Bootleg aircraft parts? Medical devices? Prescription drugs?

Sorry honey, but I'm pretty sure Delta doesn't shop on Canal street. Ditto for Beth-Israel.

Who cares about knockoff status handbags, really? The only reason to own one is so you can wave around the fact that you have $800 to waste at Louis Vuitton.

My friend was at an event for aspiring lawyers in high school. Through an unlucky turn of events she ended up attending a talk on copyright law. There were 10 or so teenage girls from the suburbs bitching about fake louis vuitton.

The only people who give a shit about this stuff are 14 year old girls who are pissed that they spent $600 on a Gucci bag that looks identical to a $35 Canal street knockoff. Deal with it, bitch.

(by the way, my canal street messenger bag is hella well made and designed. thanks, chinese knockers-off of louis vuitton! a little alcohol took the ridiculous monogram screen printing right off.)

The crowds of tourists ogling the crap push the crowds into the street and people walk out on Canal street to avoid the peddlers. It is extremely annoying.

It always amazing when I see young women going into buildings with strangers to buy the bags. Really safe, people.

Gotta say I am coming down on ST's side in this. Factory Overages- HA!

In addition to all the above issues ST listed, my big complaint is that these guys take up very valuable sidewalk space. I have to walk from Rock Center to 53rd street every morning and have to dodge around these guys (dont get me started on the freakin LearningAnnex "boxes" or whatever you call them). Not surprisingly (being business men) they sit in areas of maximum congestion and traffic; corners, entrances to subways, etc.

I want them gone. I have been to Bombay/Mumbai and unless we deal with people treating sidewalk as their stores, we will be just like Bombay- without sidewalks.