mbrew, why is it ok to exclude murder as a crime? It's probably the one crime I'd be most concerned about if I were a victim. In fact, I think you're hurting your argument by bringing this point up. Murder is a much more potent indicator of a ingrained violent behavioral tendancy than any petty crime.

Levitt's point is that blacks aren't genetically predisposed to crime. Nobody is saying that they are. His research is pointless - you might as well say that the only reason there are so many Jewish doctors is more Jews go to Med School.

The question is why so many blacks create an environment that fosters crime. mbrew imagines that the man has it in for blacks, but can't offer any examples or proof. Maybe because there isn't any. Dirk has a much better take than people like mbrew who haven't paid much attention to forty years of social policy.

ken: I'm using Steven Levitt's research on this one (and trying not to look like someone Nick D. might be talking about). Here's a quote:

"Importantly, however, once you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide."

All that means and that race plays little role in creating criminals, contra the argument others are making by saying "look, there are so many black people in jail." Any group, regardless of color, when subject to similar conditions, will have similar rates of crime. I think it's those determinitive causes that need to be addressed. Buying more books is probably not the most effective way to do it.

Actually, I think the arguments here are looking too closely at the details of the statistical and behavioral aspects of this phenomenon and loosing sight of the bigger picture.

There are a number of points listed above that are irrelevant. Most potently, the cause of black poverty and criminal behavior. All we can conclusively see is that no matter how much money or "opportunity" is thrown at the problem, it doesn't go away. Is the cause genetic, cultural, historical? ...Who really cares? If money and politics can't solve the problem, then what difference does it really make?

I'll say one thing though... I don't think poverty is the cause for criminal behavior. Here in Mumbai India, home to Asia's largest urban slum, where I'm on assignment, there is more poverty than one could ever imagine. Here I, a blatant white tourist, can walk at night through garbage filled dimly lit streets in the middle of this urban zoo without a second thought about my safety. When I return to New York... I can't walk ten minutes in a poor black neighborhood at night without being hassled (and we've all been hassled). Poverty isn't a cause for crime, it's just an excuse. I'm going off on a tangent, I said I wasn't going to form conjecture about the causes of black poverty/crime so I'll stop.

The question is not, "what's the cause"? ...but "what's the solution"? If you can't throw additional money or social programs at the problem, then what's the alternative?

I think the situation is grave enough that society needs think about it's own survival. Poor communities clearly don't respond to social programs, that I would argue only exacerbate the problem by creating a culture of people constantly expecting assistance and don't understand the concept of self-sufficiency. I think that was clearly demonstrated by hurricane Katrina.

Basically, the concept of the successful members of society supporting the unsuccessful members is an unsustainable, and ultimately self destructive, strategy in a situation, such as ours, where the unsuccessful members are flourishing in numbers.

The only possible strategy of survival is to cut them off. End public housing, public welfare and public healthcare. Public safety, public schooling should be paid for by their own community. It's not really the moral high ground, I understand, but it's a colorblind strategy. I've seen many people here in India move beyond their means. In fact, one can argue that the entire country has done so in the last ten years. There are no excuses here. Let the theologians argue about cause and effect and let social evolution (societal Darwinism) take its course.

nick d, that's funny. i actually just read a white paper about that very topic during thanksgiving. :)

mbrew, i agree with you to a certain extent. your correlation argument is just plain obvious and i have trouble believing that anyone would want to argue against that. on the other hand, anyone trying to argue why people commit crimes better be able to provide more than just their subjective, base-less opinions (e.g. sloth leads to crime, bastards are more inclined to commit crime). but the only thing i don't get is how you got to the conclusion that there is no statistical difference between the races (mainly between whites and blacks). if you left out education, income, home structure, what control factors did you consider then?

I used to stay around Bed-Stuy, and I have to agree with one of the former posters. Maaan, the DEA had a huge presence in that neighborhood, with raids by the week.

I absolutely guarentee you, though, they'd find more drugs in downtown Manhattan.

Studies show that white people are more prone to be affluent tools that swallow any research study and the article linking the study to what they suspect. They live in certain areas of the city and are prone to be pushy, uptight and commit less acts of overt aggression, but instead commit devious yet seemingly benign acts of ignoring the world around them and staying focused on their cause, their people and their money, and enjoy reading lots of research, especially when it comes to correlations between "other races" and their propensity to do things they would "never" do.

mbrew: First of all, I'm not asserting that blacks are more "prone" to crime. I am pointing out the obvious fact that they commit more crime. No doubt that a history of racism plays a role in this. But why have out of wedlock birth rates gone up while institutionalized racism has gone down? Nobody is forcing black youths to drop out of high school and have kids out of wedlock. It is the progeny of the unmarried dropouts who commit crime.

But since you are such an expert, please describe these "structural barriers". Your argument should provide a good laugh. Every school I know of and just about every company out there is looking for blacks to admit and to hire.

And I have never claimed that anyone is genetically predisposed to crime. You are trying to hang racist labels on everyone who disagrees with you in lieu of argument. That is a tactic losers often resort to, but you aren't fooling anyone.

i agree with mbrew both on his correlation point and in calling rupert a racist. maybe rupert's not a racist but was ignorant in citing american renaissance, a renown white-power organization. citing an amren publication would be like citing mein kampf.

nola: In a society where "educated" people assert that an entire race is more "prone to crime than whites" than I'd say we probably have some serious problems. Would you hire someone with dark skin if they're much more likely to rob you? How do you reach economic parity when people think you're more prone to commit crime? Given two choices: 1) that blacks face structural barriers to escaping poverty; or 2) that they're just lazy and bad. I'm going to have to go with the first one. It takes awhile for a society who refused to recognize your humanity to change their mind. Clearly.

I love your concept of choice: I'm sure you enjoyed choosing your parent's income, education, and divorce status. Obviously, it's a choice neither you nor anyone else makes, yet the statistics show that had you been born in the same situation, you'd be just as likely to commit crime. It doesn't matter how hard working or wholesome you imagine you're race is genetically pre-disposed to be.

Don't bother posting how poor you grew up or how many obstacles you overcame, anecdotes don't impress anyone.

mbrew - Before you start calling people racist, you might want to consider the "control" factors you use to excuse black crime rates. Are these all things that blacks have no control over? Most able bodied young men whose income levels are below the poverty level are screw-ups. They don't resort to crime out of desperation, they resort to crime because they aren't interested in working eight hours a day. Why so many of these people are black is worthy of discussion but there is no point in speculating on whether white kids would commit more crime if they were in difference circumstances.

Rupert:

Entirely untrue. Maybe *you* ought to do your research. Once you control for factors like income, education, home structure and the like, you'll find that there is NO statistical difference among races (though there does appear to be a slightly higher murder rate black populations). A white kid growing up in identical circumstances is just as likely to commit a crime as anyone else.

You're confusing correlation with causation. Don't worry, it happens all the time: but when you use your mistake to justify your racism, you should be a little more careful the data supports your assertions.

I think most of the readers of this site would have a heart attack if they did their research. The truth is blacks are MORE prone to crime than whites (no matter how many text books you buy them) and, get this, law enforcement is NOT harder on blacks than whites. A recent study by the census group just published this in a report called "The Color of Crime."

http://www.amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm

Yes, white kids in Manhattan smoke pot and some even do heroin but the kids in Bed Stuy are up to a lot worse. Sorry folks. The truth hurts.

another factor with the delivery services (which, as far as i've been told, exist in all five boroughs) are partially hidden. the minute there's a violent crime involving a delivery guy and the times picks up on it, the gig will be up for a good three months or so.

what kills me is the number of pot smokers (and otherwise) i know who don't support drug legalization, even just emotionally. "good for me but not for thee" is fucked up.

p.s.

For those thinking "hey, it's just weed", let me be clear that weed is just ONE of the more frequent drugs on menu. All manner of hard drugs are being delivered to the doorsteps of manhattan-ites. In fact, I'm sure many of the customers read this site, and maybe even think they aren't criminals. According to the law, they are. So you've got to re-evaluate a lot of people who are less fortunate, living in poor areas, and how they get treated for much less severe infractions of the law.

Coke, heroin, and weed are HEAVY use all over manhattan, but there are not a lot of arrests of the people buying these drugs. These people not being arrested just happen to be white.

Most of the people reading this site haven't had to deal with the cops up close as a suspect of a crime.

As a black guy, I drove an expensive car around new york for several years and never got stopped by a cop -- I live in manhattan. The one time I drove a friend (another black male) home to his house in Bed Stuy, I suddenly found myself surrounded by 5 cop cars and being treated like I was a drug lord. Mind you, this was after the creeping gentrification of Bedstuy was already underway.

Cops, all over the U.S., enforce crime in a predudiced manner based on area. They go where they think they can make the easiest arrests. Problem is, some people think it's easier to arrest in BedStuy than Murray Hill because "blacks commit more crime". No, the fact is, it's easier to arrest in BedStuy because people there are POOR and MUCH less likely to have access to decent lawyers. So if they go to court, they are more likely to plead guilty in hopes of a lighter sentence, even if 'is' a trumped up charge.

I'm not saying BedStuy isn't dangerous, but the maps don't reflect reality, because there's a WHOLE lot of crime going on in Manhattan that isn't being reported. I can say that just about every other person I know who is under 35, and lives below 14th street has ordered weed from a delivery service, but these buyers have never been busted by the cops. Meanwhile, if you just get caught walking out of the wrong bodega in brooklyn as a black person, it's enough for them to drag you down to the precinct and ruin your whole day.

I'm still amazed by how many young white people who are my friends so casually order marijuana in Manhattan right to their doorstep.

they simply show that black neighborhoods are very affected by the factors that lead to imprisonment-- poverty being the most obvious of those.

You are 100% correct.

However, your pondering over how many books the prison money could buy is akin to saying more spending on services in those neighborhoods would stop crime and make the people happier. The fact, though, is that those neighborhoods and the people living in them receive more social services than elsewhere in the city already.

There may be other solutions, but increasing spending on social programs, imho, isn't one of them. Giving people more WIC checks won't keep 'em out of jail.

It starts at home, not in Albany.

nevermind the map. the map is only a device to highlight the problem of state prison expenditure and whether current expenditure is actually effective--that is, whether the current spending on prisons and the underlying policy are actually lowering the prison population and crime rates. the vv article itself speaks to this question, while jake's mischaracterized summary does not. (in fact, no where in the article is there any explicit reference to race. the prisonersofthecensus site uses race but only to illustrate a corollary problem of voting dilution.) so if anyone is interested in the topic of criminal justice, then read the article. the last two sections are the meater sections. it appears to be a serious problem warranting serious discussion, although a discussion that probably is best had in another forum, away from the black- and liberal-bashing.

People don't walk into a prison and asked to be held there. They don't walk into a police station and asked to be arrested. They don't walk up to the cop on the street and demand to be put in prison.

So I take it that a white college student in manhattan that smokes up and does coke on the weekend is arrested on equal terms as anyone in Bed Stuy and that a map of manhattan would show the same problems plaguing all races. No wait, only blacks commit crimes, and they deserve incarceration. The point of the study was to discuss statistics of populations for census research, not to infer that only "Blacks" commit crime and that they are a "plague" of the city of NYC.

Racism isn't what you do when everyone is looking, it's also very much so what you do when nobody is looking.