CBGB's in the Park

Punk was "Down in the Street" and is "The Way We Get By." Punk was the Minutemen who were spit on by people who deemed them non-punk. It's an idea. It may sound trite now but it spawned the whole possibility of D.I.Y. in kids' minds and gave independent record labels power. Punk is diectly responsible for creating the environment of today in which the 'ironic' self-appointed cool can declare it dead. CBGB's was a place where a lot of cool things happened, but punk had and still has very little to do with some of the commercial businesses in which it was and is performed.

"I think CBGBs should move to Brooklyn. Quite frankly I'm surprised Marty Markowitz hasn't peeped up yet suggesting this."

Actually, I know exactly where they could go. The Brooklyn Lyceum on 4th Avenue and President Street right near the Union Street N/R station.

The place is painfully underutilitized and the space--a former bathhouse--is HUGE! Cattyshack--the new place from the owners of Meow Mix on Houston--is a few blocks down. Frankly, most of 4th Avenue is ripe for a place like CBGBs to relocate to. Heck, move it closer to the area near the Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street station even.

While people might scoff at the idea, the concept of going to the Bowery in th 1970s to hear a band was alien as well.

Time to grow and evolve. And 4th Avenue in Brooklyn is the right balance of everything to welcome a new venue to the borough.

I think CBGBs should move to Brooklyn. Quite frankly I'm surprised Marty Markowitz hasn't peeped up yet suggesting this.

Tonic does not have "pristine stalls" by any means...

What's the matter with you guys Jack and Dave H. This is the east village for god's sake - the proud land of Tonic, cigarette smoking rats, CBGBs and public masterbators. Wake up and call Margarita Lopez and suggest that she step up and try to resolve this petty landlord/tenent dispute. Margarita is a compelling speaker and might get some action. Maybe someone else will do the same for you one day.

blah, blah. Hilly has no responsibility to uphold any punk ethos. The guy started the place for country and bluegrass music, but was open minded enough to let anyone play. He worked his ass off for a long time and if he finally is able to sell expensive trinkets and joey ramone action figures to european tourists and earn some cash for retirement well then good for him, he deserves it. I'm sure Joey Ramone would agree and would probably still be spending his days watching Maria Bartoromo spout off about stock quotes.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised by a lot of these preservationists. CBGB was the incubator of the punk ethos in NYC, and what is punk if not a statement against the status quo? Does that make punk music it's own funeral dirge? Yeah, it does! An overt attachment to the sound and geography of the original punk movement repudiates its very original purpose of existence. Is Blondie the new Ann Coulter? Of course not, but an out-of-proportion attachment to a building that represents landmark status to a movement that eschewed the very concept of such a thing is absurd. Joey Ramone would probably be screaming "Tear it down, let it burn." If you want immortality, head to Cleveland, but that's not punk, It never should be. Find a new frontier. Make your own heritage. Seek your own outlets. Turning punk into a veritable folk museum of reminisences and remembrances of things past is the ultimate betrayal.

Yes, but neither you are me know what the BRC agenda is. You know how mercenary real estate is in this town. Hilly is looking for a new 12 year lease. My guess is that all the red herrings about the upkeep and rent have more to do with the idea of selling the building or the land to some developer for a big money payout and they don't want to wait another 12 years to do so. The BRC is occupying half the building for free while Hilly is paying more than the full rent. It seems like it should be an amicable arrangement. Seems like a clash of personalities that could be fixed by a sensible mediator. As far as milking punk nostalgia goes, better Hilly than Green Day and Avril Lavigne.

"If Hilly can pay his rent I don't care how he decorates the place."

Obviously, the BRC does care what they do with their--not Hilly's--property.

So don't go there. Go to your beloved Tonic and poop in their pristine bathroom stalls that are more in keeping with your idea of a vital contemporary scene. If Blimpies moves into CBGBs they will gut the place and rebuild it in the familiar Blimpies style retail design anyway, so I don't know why you're so worried about the interior of CBGBs. If Hilly can pay his rent I don't care how he decorates the place. He's been a good neighbor for a long time and he deserves support regardless of whether you go there or not.

"Of course it's abyssmal. Patrons would be disappointed if it was anything else. The newer CBGBs gallery next door is very clean which leads me to believe that Hilly leaves the old CBGBs looking messy for old times sake."

If Hilly owned the building that would be nice and charming, but any renter leaving anyplace in that state should not be shocked when the landlord comes after them.

And yes, the 'crappiness' is part of the charm. But as someone who was there back in the 1980s, the place is actually worse than it used to be. And in ways that are far from charming.

You say you don't know the full deal with Tonic. Pity. You're defending the nostalgia of CBGBs and Hilly's supposed 'right' to milk the club for all its worth and are completely ignorant of a truly vital contemporary music club.

Of course it's abyssmal. Patrons would be disappointed if it was anything else. The newer CBGBs gallery next door is very clean which leads me to believe that Hilly leaves the old CBGBs looking messy for old times sake. As long as the guy is paying his rent I don't know why anyone would want him to lose his business. I don't know what problems are going on at Tonic, but I would hate to see them close as well. The more live venues the better.

"Greedy landlord tries to evict long time tenent."

And if I left my apartment in half the condition CBGBs is in, do you think I'd get a break from my landlord?

Outside of supposed 'greed' claims, the places is in abyssmal shape and quite possibly a serious health hazard.

Tetanus is not punk!

idolatry? hurricanes? homeless? $32 t-shirts? It's a simple landlord/tenent issue. Greedy landlord tries to evict long time tenent.

Punk never sleeps.

Or is that rust?

FREEBIRD!

Fuck punk! *#@&#$!~!! Fuck punk. I'm goddamn sick and tired of years of hearing about how 'being punk' is some sort of blessed knighthood.

FUCK punk.

"Actually pugsley, the one thing that I really like about punk is how it's not about idolatry. Do what you do and be accepted for it."

I just want to clarify this. The way people are idolizing CBGBs in the year 2005 is beyond pathetic. Considering how the place is managed, how much it rips off tourists and patrons and how utterly musically irrelevant it is the in year 2005 it should simply fade away. Hilly's milked it for all it's worth. With B Bar a few blocks away and a luxury co-op on the corner it's time to move on and find another place to hawk $32 t-shirts.

Actually pugsley, the one thing that I really like about punk is how it's not about idolatry. Do what you do and be accepted for it.

Regarding the hurricance, it's affected ot just Louisiana, but Mississippi and even Alabama as well. While you're fighting to help Hilly get richer off of the reutation of a club that was last relevant in 1977 people with real issues need real help.

And you know what, you don't need a dopler radar to know that. Turn on any news station and you'll learn.

If Hilly is paying more rent for the place than the BRC pays, you know what? That's good for the BRC. CBGBs is in abyssmal condition and the BRC does good work. I'm sure the BRC would have made accomodations to save the club had CBGBs been a good tenant, but the place is abyssmal to say the least. What has Hilly done other than fleece the reputation of artists who have long since moved on and sell $32 t-shirts pimping a punk legacy he's really a footnote in.

First you're lying about Hilly "screwing the homeless," when he's paying more in rent than the BRC pays for the entire building, now you're accusing him of being heartless because he puts on shows during a hurricane in Louisiana. I guess Hilly will have to install a doppler radar into CBGBs so that he can plan his show schedule to suit your sensibilities.

"It's a matter of an out of control, tax funded beaurocrat landlord screwing a tenant."

Also, it's an issue of a landlord asserting their rights. CBGBs is a renter and frankly they seem to be horrible tenants regardless of whatever court ruling on back rent holds.

I do have fond memories of being in CBGBs in the past. But that's the past. Let the place die or move on to another.

If Hilly has the money as he claims, just move into another space and trash it. Heck, how much does Hilly actually care or understand CBGBs legacy? He's been in talks to open a CBGBs in Las Vegas. Not very punk at all.

Like others have said, save Tonic. And heck, support Continetal; even Iggy Pop wants to play there. Nobody really cares about CBGBs and the $32 t-shirts they are pimping anymore.

Don't know where you're getting the figures from, but if I had any tentant leaving property in that condition, I'd evict them the first chance I had.

Considering the condition of the place and the state that Hilly willfully leaves it in, the cost of rent is irrelevant. I've known people kicked out of apartments for ruing the carpet. What's CBGBs excuse for the gut rehab job anyone would have to do to make the place truly safe.Just kick them out.

Oh, and pugsley if you haven't heard ALL of New Orleans is a disaster area right now. People are dead and the city is devestated to say the least. I'm drawing the parallel because there are bigger things in life than CBGBs. While Hilly puts on shows to save his own shithole from his own mismanagement real humans in a real cultural capital of the U.S. are in real trouble.

I'm officially sick of the CBGBs defense fund. They've proven themselves to be a self-serving bunch of bums.

I don't really care whether you like CBGBs or not Jack, but it's not necessary to lie about CBGBs "screwing the homeless." The BRC rents the entire building for aprox. $16,000 a month and then charges CBGB's aprox $19,000 a month for their space (about half the building). I'd rather have a pioneering dinosaur like Hilly in the neighborhood than politically correct A-holes lecturing me about the poor BRC any day. It's not about "saving CBGBs." They are paying their rent so it's not a situation like the Bottom Line or some other place that can't afford the rent. It's a matter of an out of control, tax funded beaurocrat landlord screwing a tenant.

What's the status on Tonic? Is it staying? I agree this venue has been more of a home to the cutting edge than the aging and far-gone CBGBs. Punks not dead? Yeah, right.

"I just left a message for Margarita Lopez, suggesting that she step in and try to mediate a settlement of the CBGB/landlord dispute. I encourage anyone else interested to do the same."

Pugsley, who cares at this point. Hilly Kristal is screwing his landlord on rent. Hilly got off on a clerical error. His cries of being a victim of meaningless at this point becuase it takes LOTS of chutzpah to screw over a not-for-profit that helps the homeless. The second I heard that part of this situation, all of my sympathy for Hilly and CBGBs shed away.

What part of being punk includes screwing the homeless?

Thanks CBGBs! Way to go!

Seriously, it was a pioneering venue at one point about 30 years ago. But it's basically a shithole on many levels nowadays. First, the place has become a tourist trap. They book virtually any shitty band in the world that is willing to go on stage and have lost any semblance of the punk ethos they once had. I can't even think of one band in the past 10 years I was willing to see at that place. Ditto with tons of friends of mine.

At this point CBGBs is simply an awning and a liscensing franchise to sell overpriced t-shirts at Urban Outfitters. Let the place fade away already.

Punk changes and art changes. Max's Kansas City is a korean deli. The Lone Star Cafe is... a korean deli as well. Let the place go and let the memories live. It's simply irrelevant and entropy has taken its toll on the dump.

And for those urging for a punk ethos in 2005, find a new venue to claim as your own for the new generation. Respect the past, but don't get tied down by it.

If you guys want to save a place, save TONIC. Tonic has been more supportive of the *new* underground sound by far. Today. In 2005. Ask anyone who really knows.

CBGB has been a joke for years. Only now are we getting all teary-eyed, but really, think about how much revolutionary music has come out of CBGB over the past decade or so. Almost none, right?

Face it, geriatric punkers are the new geriatric hippies. Garage rockers are now gray-haired and are having $40 reunion tours. They hack up plegm like old men and have been plopping dead of cancer left and right. Punk is no longer a youth movement. Your time's been up a long time ago.

Sob, Sob. I know it's misguided sentimentality, but I'm sorry to see it go--Discovered punk there back in 77 as a teen. First show I saw featured the Dictators and the Dead Boys and it was a fabulous show-Stiv Bators rolling around the stage in broken glass during the guitar lead for sonic reducer-priceless. I could go on and on about many other great bands I saw there. Yes its a dump, but its always been a dump and the sound system rocked. Visiting from out of town in recent years, I've not been impressed with much of the local talent, but somebody has got to get their start and polish their chops somewhere; why not in a place where the greats of rock and roll have walked and played.

That schmuck Hilly should have bought the building way back when it would have cost him crumbs. That space will probably become some snotty boutique or nuevo cuisine restaurant in the upper manhattanification of the LES. It's a terrible shame for it is an american institution of rock and roll.

Sob, Sob. I know it's misguided sentimentality, but I'm sorry to see it go--Discovered punk there back in 77 as a teen. First show I saw featured the Dictators and the Dead Boys and it was a fabulous show-Stiv Bators rolling around the stage in broken glass during the guitar lead for sonic reducer. I could go on and on about many other great bands I saw there. Yes its a dump, but its always been a dump and the sound system rocked. Visiting from out of town in recent years, I've not been impressed with much of the local talent, but somebody has got to get their start and polish their chops somewhere; why not in a place where the greats of rock and roll have walked and played.

That schmuck Hilly should have bought the building way back when it would have cost him crumbs. That space will probably become some snotty boutique or nuevo cuisine restaurant in the upper manhattanification of the LES. It's a terrible shame for it is an american institution of rock and roll.

I just left a message for Margarita Lopez, suggesting that she step in and try to mediate a settlement of the CBGB/landlord dispute. I encourage anyone else interested to do the same.

I was there last night to see Sham 69. Hadn't been there in years. The place is a dump and is probably dangerous. No ventilation. Shit-hole toilets with no lights. Not to mention the gauntlet you have to run to get to those basement facilities. The bartenders were pleasant enough. And the sound system is passable. I'm sorry to see CBGBs go, but it has definitely outlived its 15 minutes of fame.

pugsley:

Don't matter, their lease is up tomorrow anyway.

They are paying their rent. They just won a lawsuit against the A-hole landlords for overcharging for rent. The best thing to do is probably to get Margarita Lopez worked up about this. I think she's the city council rep. for this district. If CBGBs leaves it will probably be replaced by a Blimpies or some generic restaurant.

M. Lopez

District Office

237 First Ave (Suite 405) New York, 10003

Phone: (212) 614-8751

Fax: (212) 614-8813

You know what would be really punk rock? Let the place go.

boo f*cking hoo. where were all these fans to support them all these years. it must be SOO COOL to be at a CBGB benefit and try and save this shithole. LET THE CONDOS RISE!!!!!

Let the shithole go. It hasn't been worth anything for YEARS.

i luv me some CBGBs. I remember first playing their when i was 14 but come on....pay your rent. but COME ON NOW PEOPLE they rent from a not for profit that houses the homeless and addicted. this is getting ridiculus. FUQ CBGBs. they should of taken the 30+ yrs to figure out how to run a rock club and not run it into the ground at the expense of the homeless and addicted.