Gothamist: The "Watchdog" Pope Benedict

Amos Cohen

Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:58:21 -0500

What is this whole thing about the pope's past? I would recommend those, who accuse Pope Benedict of being an ex-Nazi to grab a good history book and read a little bit about this era. Young boys were FORCED to join the Hitler-Jugend, there was no other option. They got enrolled automatically! So yo even cannot talk about misssteps in the pope's youth. Apart from that , Joseph Ratzinger deserted at the very end risking his live, but this is nowhere mentioned in the gutter press. It's easier to hate than to respect somebody I am wondering why there are still so many anti-german feelings in this world. Hasn't Germamy proved to be a good democracy with peace-loving people the past fifty years? BTW I am an Israeli living in Germany, and really appreciate this "New Germany"

sm

Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:40:55 -0500

Calling Pius XII "Hitler's Pope" is going too far, too. I've heard Michael Marrus, one of the leading Holocaust historians, speak on this, and he gave no support to the notion.

T.A.

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:02:55 -0500

I'm just happy that I can start loathing the Vatican again. All that squisy PJPII emo was gettin' to me. Thanx, cardinals.

hijiki

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:57:35 -0500

no, it probably was not voluntary. we'll never know. but that's beside the point. i'm talking about the overall image formed by choosing a former nazi with hardliner values. if americans with easy access to favorable media make the assumptions that K did, what is the reaction in other places where leaders are looking for reasons to hate the west? it's just not a good image and then it's compounded by his condemnation of everyone non-catholic... similarities to nazism are there and easily exploited by the devils i'm playing advocate for.

toyochin

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:27:27 -0500

I'm going to guess that neither you nor your family was threatened with harm for refusing to kiss your sister. Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't at least look into his past and be open to the possibility that he was a Nazi. But knowing what we know about his family and his record, it seems J-Ratz's involvement with the Nazis was not voluntary.

hijiki

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:10:15 -0500

i might have kissed my sister. is that on parr with joining a nationalist genocide party and proceeding to dictate morality to a billion people? sorry, i'm just playing devils advocate here. but i do hope this decision makes people question their religion a little more.

jenny

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:47:49 -0500

hijiki -- aren't there things that you did as a kid that you are not proud of? And as for other religions, Ratzinger worked with Jewish leaders in Germany and was part of the push to get JPII to observe other religions i.e. go to a synagogue and mosque. The church has come a long way in the past 20+ years in terms on working with other religions and as right hand man to the pope, you have to believe Ratzinger worked to help that. tien -- they do still allow. For now. ;)

hijiki

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:13:17 -0500

so nazi germans were scared into submission. ok fine, they're all excused. i probably would have done the same thing and come out of it with the same story as everyone else... 'yeah, i was involved, but only because i was forced into it'. who's to say. but running for moral master of a billion sheep is another story. he's spouted off his superiority over every other religion in the world. he'll probably change his tone now that he's in charge, but still it looks scarily like he's leading the master religion to power and the muslims and jews and athiests be damned. i agree that his teenage missteps aren't that big of a deal to most of us... the nazi involvement just makes the scene a little more distasteful. still i wonder if maybe he learned something from the nazis.

tien

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:18:16 -0500

jenny, "a German-American Catholic who is marrying a Jew in two months"? that's allowed these days? i kid, i kid.

joe

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:09:29 -0500

Running for Pope or not (Dad's marginally a Lutheran so his chances of becoming Pope are slim) is irrelevant. If your side is losing in the middle of a war and the people with guns tell you to show up, you show up. If you don't show up the people with the guns use the guns.

Rose

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:52:46 -0500

Somewhere in my then radical religious classes in the days of yore I know we discussed that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not necessarily what the teachings of God would be. They are the interpretations of men and, therefore, not necessarily right.

toyochin

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:31:02 -0500

How many German boys of his age do you know refused to join the Nazis and lived to tell about it? Whatever his flaws, Benny XVI ain't no Pius XII who is deservedly known as Hitler's Pope. Also the papacy was anything but a figurehead position under JP2. The Pope is in a position to influence action in countries where the population is predominantly Catholic and puts the Vatican ahead of the Junta of the Month. And if the Pope came out in favor of birth control tomorrow, you bet your ass the sale of condoms will shoot up in a lot of developing countries.

K

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:29:25 -0500

Your dad isn't running for pope is he?

joe

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:46:33 -0500

Pretty much every German boy was forced to be in the Hitler Youth. My father is a couple of years younger than Ratzinger and had to join. One day he was told to report for drills. There wasn't any option to not show up.

K

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:12:21 -0500

Exactly; the pope is a figurehead just as much as anything else. And how do you know he was "forced" to be in the Hitler Youth? I assume you believe every word you read in the press. His parents so adamantly opposed the Nazis that they permitted their child to be part of their organization. Even his mere association - be it active or passive - should be enough to dissuade an intelligent organization from electing such a person to a largely political post. But alas, this is the Church we're talking about; the greatest murderer and violent monotheist in history. It makes Naziism seem like a short killing spree.

hijiki

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:15:44 -0500

jenny, i think K was speaking about the IMAGE his involvement with the nazis conveys. he was talking about marketing the catholic faith in developing nations where not everyone will be educated about the nuances of mere active support for the nazis vs being a full-fledged officer. the fact is he was involved and that's all a lot of people in the world need to hear. as you say... who cares about his influence over those 1.1 billion people since he'll be dead soon. who needs to educate themselves?

jenny

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:44:42 -0500

not to be a stickler but yes, the guy was a Hitler Youth only because he was forced to be like most people his age at that time in Germany. His parents didn't support the Nazis. Before you start running your mouth about the whole Nazi connection, you need to educate yourself. And this is coming from a German-American Catholic who is marrying a Jew in two months. As for B16, yes, this is just going to be more of the same when it comes to birth control, women's roles in the church, etc. but he's just babysitting the papacy. He won't be around long. And remember that American Catholics are not the only Catholics -- we shouldn't base our judgement of how well this pope will handle 1.1 BILLION Catholics solely on how the decision is received in the U.S.

hijiki

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:31:26 -0500

are our chances of moving toward world peace helped by a hardline religious leader who sees the world as either with him or an infidel?

Phil

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:07:42 -0500

The last time the cardinals picked a "transitional" pope, in 1958, they got John XXIII, who called Vatican II and is now one step away from being a saint. The thing about popes is that while they're elected, once they get the job they're not really beholden to the cardinals. The pope can make his own policies. So there's no reason why Benedict XVI couldn't be "the big one" and make some surprising changes. That said, I'm glad I'm not Catholic, as I don't expect him to do much to make liberal Catholics feel welcome.

toyochin

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:56:51 -0500

Isn't the accepted wisdom that B-16 is essentially a caretaker Pope? At 78, Benny's pretty old already so he won't be around as long as JP was, and his main responsibility will be to stay the course. The next Pope will be the big one, methinks.

K

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:21:17 -0500

This is great news for us anti-Catholics: the Vatican's decision shows their lack of marketing savvy. We all know the Third World (namely Africa) is the hot area for the Church's recruiting efforts, yet the senile cardinals elect an ex-Nazi. The cultish nature of christianity will hopefully continue as this pillar crumbles.

T.A.

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:05:50 -0500

The only possible positive outcome from Ratzinger's appointment is that maybe we'll get ourselves a John Milton and an "Areopagitica" for the 21st century.

Richie Boy

Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:31:00 -0500

Wait...I just woke up. Did a bunch of smoking cardinals select John Ratzenberger to be the new pope? I thought Cliff from Cheers was doing voiceover work for Pixar movies, but this is a good career move for him.