April 4, 2005
Light Rail For NYC: vision42
An article in the Post about an initiative for a light rail on 42nd Street piqued Gothamist's interest because the lack of efficient crosstown transportation options has always bugged us. Given the slower than molasses crosstown bus service and the neverending development along 42nd Strett, the group vision42 is trying to get a light rail built, to make 42nd Street a boulevard of pedestrians, complete with outdoor cafes and other stores. This idea is fascinating, but almost so strange to think of: A 42nd Street without cars. The photographs and maps are fun, in a trippy, NYC-in-the-future movie sort of way.
The Department of Transportation told the Post, ""We are always open to new ideas, but we have had concerns about the feasibility of a 42nd Street light rail. The Shuttle and No. 7 trains currently provide cross-town service, and the administration's transit priority in the area is the extension of the No. 7." Yeah, the 7 train seems closer to a tenable solution, especially since the MTA said an expanded 7 line was the reason the Jets' West Side bid was selected. Here's vision42's thoughts on the 7 train expansion.
vision42 will be putting up the results of different studies - economic impact, traffic and cost - on their website on April 18, which is also when a public forum will be held at 7PM, Marriott Marquis. Reserve at seat here.
Image from vision42
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I would love for this to become a reality, and then expand. It's high time we got rid of buses and brought back the trolleys!
There are also plans (though not as advanced) for replacing the M8 bus (8th St) with light-rail. A light-rail line on 2nd Ave with an exclusive right-of-way has also been discussed. It would serve as a "local" to the 2nd Ave subway. It would also be much cheaper.
But 42nd seems like a good starting point, especially since relatively few vehicles use it, and pedestrians vastly outnumber cars, and need more room. Plus, you could connect it to the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail via the Lincoln Tunnel!
Of course, all of this takes money....
In theory, anything that reduces car transportation and encourages pedestrianism is a good idea, but I'm having a pretty hard time envisioning what this would do to north-south traffic, since it all needs to cross 42nd.
And are the businesses on 42nd just supposed to stop getting deliveries?
sam -- Obviously north-south traffic would still flow across 42nd as before. As for the deliveries, I believe that all of the stores on 42nd get deliveries in back (41st, 43rd streets) since rent on 42nd st is too high to use up frontage for loading docks.
This scheme has been accomplished before in other cities (mostly Europe, and all of these general problems been solved. Obviously there are specifics to NYC that have to be addressed. I've been to an earlier version of Vision42's presentation, and I'm looking foward to seeing the new one.
Incidentally, the "futuristic" light-rail cars pictured above are real, from Strasbourg.
Nice photoshopping. From the photos, it seems like the light-rail commuters of the future are going to be ugly tourists with bad style and wide asses. Maybe they should get some exercise and walk those few blocks.
34th and 8th need this more than 42nd. The S & 7 work better than anything going on at 34th and 8th.
Though considering 8th isn't getting a stop on the 2nd Ave subway (wtf?), 34th would be enough.
I seem to recall this idea being floated in a semi-serious way about 21 years ago, just around the time we were starting to hear rumors of a "new Times Square" and the Marriott Marquis was being built.
Vision42 seems to simply want to reinvent the wheel. And what better way to do that than to comletely ignore the benefits of the system that already exists and no improve on what's there.
Light rail? Monorail? Same difference. It always looks good in concept and fails miserably in practice. Replacing a bus that can go anywhere with trails that can only travel on rails is never a good idea. And we have subways in place. Since there is little on the west side of 42nd Street adding an extension to the number 7 train is a no brainer. The MTA just has to do it.
Remember the lessons of Ogdenville, North Haverbrook, and Brockway my fellow Springfield residents.
"Reserve at seat here."
For christ's sake, proofread damn you!
Jack,
Actually there are many successful light-rail systems in place all around the world, and many more currently being built. They are in fact *not* the same as monorails, being essentially better versions of the trolleys that plied the streets of many of our cities in decades past, before GM other companies bought them up and drove them into bankruptcy.
Light-rail systems are quieter, cleaner, smoother, more efficient than bus systems. They also are more attractive, which accounts for their popularity and success.
Remember Jersey City, Minneapolis, Camden, etc, my fellow Springfield residents.
Mike, not everything is bad. Not everything is good. But it's pretty much been proven that light rail systems can only thrive in relatively smaller scale environments where there is a need for some transportation.
Jersey City, Minneapolis & Camden are hardly on the scale of NYC and none of them had an existing infrastructure (ie: the MTA) to support it.
Yes, GM drove trolleys away. And trolleys visually look quaint and cute. But let's not prentend that trolley's were the most perfect form of mass transportation. But ultimately, Detroit automakers struck their biggest public transportation blow when they went after bus companies.
Buses replaced trolleys and everyone was happy. Trolleys were--and are--costly to maintain and require a grid of some kind to operate on. Either overhead wires or rails. Buses just need the open road.
But then when automakers saw the potential in marketing cars more aggresively to individuals, the bus companies were the next victim. And the true blow to public transportation.
Now transportation advocates want to ignore the inherent problems that plagued trolley systems and force lightrail as the "best" new alternative.
The main problem with trolley's and light rail is that it directly competes for road space. Which will just cause more problems. Expanding already existing MTA subway lines is much more of a realistic proposition since the Subway competes for no space than it's own.
As far as surface transportation goes, buses really do give more and operate more efficiently than any rail system. And in NYC initiatives are in place to use more and more energy efficient buses on more and more lines. Nedd more capacity? Put more buses in service! It doesn't get simpler than that.
Again, with this? Like it or not, NYC's a de facto car town, with no new subway lines completed since 1940, and as much as this plan, or extending the #7 make sense, you have a better chance of Albany $$$ going toward more expressways...
I believe a more tenable plan is dedicated bus lanes on an uptown street like 2nd Avenue or a crosstown street like 42nd.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't help but think of what an open, car-less 42nd Street would be like at night.
There's a reason those photos only show the daytime: Because other than Times Square (and to some extent Grand Central Terminal), 42nd Street at night is dead, dead, dead. This makes me think of images like tumbleweeds, wild dogs, gangbangers wandering through the even more dead (no cars now) empty sections of 42nd Street, making disembarking at any stop aside from GST and Times Square a scary proposition.
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!
You'd be better served having a monorail along Houston Street from the FDR to at least Sixth Avenue (West Side Hwy would be better).
Connect the L.E.S, East Village, Nolita, NOHO, SOHO, Greenwich Village and West Village in one swoop. You already have the median, you could still have cars, and it's not really served by subway (don't count the F) or bus (don't count the 21).
I'm all for dedicated bus lanes on 42nd and 2nd (and 1st?) Ave as Forgotten NY Kevin suggests.
The M15, which more or less runs in uninterrupted straight lines between Houston and 125th would be hell of a lot more efficient if it didn't have to deal with parked/standing vehicles.
And sure, the 42nd St has the S and the 7, but if you want to go beyond 7th Ave to the west or Lexington to the east, you have to deal with the crosstown bus which moves at snail's pace in daytime traffic.
I would love to see a dedicated bus lane like Market St in San Francisco, and/or a midtown loop around 42nd and 34th.
I prefer the scheme somebody came up with back in the 1940s, I think it was. Can't remember who it was. There was a pedestrians-only promenade above the streets, so pedestrians and traffic never had to mix. Add a light rail or people-mover on that level and it'd be heaven on the Hudson. New York would be a very different city today if they'd implemented that idea. Traffic would be able to move fast if it doesn't have to deal with oblivious jaywalkers. Pedestrians wouldn't have to worry about maniac drivers.
"There's a reason those photos only show the daytime: Because other than Times Square (and to some extent Grand Central Terminal), 42nd Street at night is dead, dead, dead."
Times Square and the block in front of GCT should be exclusively for pedestrians, buses and emergency vehicles. And the PATH train should be extended to Astor Place as it was intended...
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/proposedextensionsmapcrunchedyellow.jpg
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/1-constructionhistory.html
..and beyond to the East Village, LES, and Downtown Brooklyn.
what is this, new york or disneyland?
While they're at it, someone should propose extending the 7 train to New Jersey. Hopefully then New Jersey will kick in lots of dough...
I don't like it.
I like the idea of dedicated bus lanes on high-traffic thoroughfares: Houston, 8th, 34th, 42nd, 125th, 2nd Ave, whatever. It's faster to walk from one end to the other on those streets than to take a bus sometimes. Bus lanes are a cheap solution to the problem; all you'd have to do is draw some new lines on the road. If the 7 gets extended, a light rail on 42nd Street would be redundant, not to mention susceptible to weather (how well would it run in the snow?).
Houston has a light rail and apparently it's so quiet that drivers who don't bother checking their mirrors before turning never hear it coming and end up getting into accidents.
Lots of great ideas and suggestions here. I think I'd like a dedicated bus lane, but that would also mean a "no double parking" rule. And there would need to be buses that stop every two blocks, versus every block or every half block.
anyone else notice the black guy on the right walking directly into the path of the train... this posting is racist.