the Pope is going to heaven anyway, so why all the sadness? And the parents of Terri Schiavo were hoping to keep her alive more for themselves than for her. They couldnt bear losing her, which is understandable, but ultimately selfish. Let them die, they are going to a better place, and that should be celebrated, not cried about.

how can you prove that an asparagus has no immortal soul?

That's the trick isn't it, hijiki? It's difficult to figure out how to separate our public lives from the way we see our public lives covered in the media. But I think the distinction is real; for instance, the televised media covered the Schiavo case through the prism of "values" and a "culture of life," but as a lot of public opinion polls revealed, the vast majority of Americans perceived the story through a very different lens -- the experience of coping with the suffering of a loved one.

But I also think it's too easy to blame the media entirely. By and large, we do a very poor job of coping with loss and suffering in this country. Our impulse is always to "get past" or "work through" whatever is causing us pain, instead of attempting to really inhabit those feelings, to puzzle out what they mean without seeing them as a burden to be shifted or a hurdle to be overcome. That needs to change, too.

there's the problem future crazy, you're still assuming that one has to believe in the supernatural/afterlife in order to be spiritual. i don't believe in the soul and that does not make me more 'modern/plasticized' than you. it's my belief that all things on this planet are composed of the same stuff and will return to that stuff when they die. food, people, animals... the stuff of asparugus will become the stuff of a human. i think it's a beautiful cycle that shouldn't be poisoned. can you see the spiritual significance of organic food in this cycle? do you really consider that materialism?

i never claimed my beliefs are correct or better than yours, but you are still insisting that my beliefs are wrong (that there is no 'big difference' between food and people) and yours are right... doesn't that make you the closed-minded one here?

the 'holier than thou' comment was in reaction to the previous comment that claimed gothamist was acting 'holier than thou' i'm sorry if that was unclear.

you're probably right tim a, there's a difference between 'public' and 'media'. i just wonder how public mourning works in today's world without the media turning it into something driven by ratings. can the public get away from the media?

oh please, he's a really old, sick guy. I hope he's not in any pain, but I am not going to cry about him. and i am catholic. I am much more easily moved to tears and actions by the daily reports of civilians and our military guys being killed in Iraq. This whole "culture of life" stuff is so disgusting in it's hypocrisy.

Cry about the pope, go to the cathedral to pray for him but then PLEASE do something real to help people who are just as innocent if not more so than the pope who are being denied adequate nutrition, clean water, decent health care and a safe place to live--do something to make thier lives full of less suffering while you are obsessing about the pope.

my essential creed involves buying/eating organic because not only is it healthy for this earth that god created, but it is healthier for the farmworkers who harvest the food and also healthier for the children born to farmworkers not to have thier parents contaminated with pesticides. It 's funny that crazy cat woman accuses modern organic food-eating types of a fear of death when it's the crazy catholics and evangelicals who were fighting tooth and nail to keep terri from letting her life take it's natural course and letting her go on to be with her god in heaven.

New York is possibly the largest Catholic community in North America. Its archdiocese is the largest in the United States. So of course it will have impact here, and in many ways will be a local story.

And I agree with my eponymous friend, mourning is a sign of life and health and underrated in a society that fears sadness.

However, there is a difference between mourning, or keeping a vigil, or going to St. Pats to say a prayer and be among like-minded people, and the media watch which is going on today. As I write this, MSNBC has a link called "Vatican Watch - The Latest." It doesn't play to our better instincts. I have a feeling when His Holiness passes we'll get word.

One reason why we many not do public mourning well is that we can't seem to do it without sensationalism.

No...

Pope= human being w/ immortal soul

asparagus= very much not human being w/definitely no immortal soul.

Big difference. Food is a good to the living, and necessary. Never denied it; in fact, I affirmed it.

I hate trivializing this event. So that's it- we really are fundamentally different, and while you accuse me and others of being holier than thou (the knee-jerk reaction to Christians who say they believe in ANYTHING Christian), and, I'm sure what would have followed-"close-minded," you appear to have closed off you options, too, and go on to lecture me about other religions. Isn't that a little bit- shall I say it?- Naw.

hijiki, I believe that if the U.S. had a stronger tradition of meaningful, secular observance, we would avoid the sort of distasteful and undignified "mourning" we are currently seeing in the media. That's the point.

Here's another point: We as a society are always quick to claim victory as publicly as possible, but rarely do we publicly acknowledge costs or consequences, or acquaint ourselves with the lot of those who suffer. If we publicly mourned each flag-draped casket that came back from Iraq, how many American boots do you suppose would be on the ground in Baghdad right now?

true, but if you want to trivialize it i can say:

pope=material substance

but wouldn't you agree that the mourning is not so much about the man himself, but what he represents to society and religion? just like the pope, organic food represents far more than just the thing itself... all life as part of a whole or growth and nourishment of the earth are examples. some spiritual beliefs hold the concept of food in very high regard just as the catholic faith holds the pope in high regard.

Food=material substance

material substance=not really helpful to dead person, very literally speaking.

That's my point. If you think the key is in eating organic food- well, eat away.

if gothamist was being snarky it was toward the media, not the pope. gothamist hasn't changed any level of seriousness for this story as bo's papa alleges. there's almost always a level of humor to even serious stories... even the mta and pandas. is there really anything in the post that is that offensive to the catholic religion, or are the devout just a bit hypersensitive? holier than thou.

tim a, you make a very good point regarding the red lake comparison, but to the side of that, i don't think more mourning via media involvement could possibly make the process more dignified. i'll take my mourning privately (with my family and friends) over fox news any day. i don't understand the benefit in public mourning.

future crazy, i think you missed my point. organic food is more important to me (and the planet itself) than the pope and again, it's not a form of materialism. in fact, for many not beholden to orgainzed religion, it is a component of their spirituality and there's nothing more righteous about your belief than their's. while you were attacking gothamist for being insensitive, your own comment was insensitive toward the 'plasticized, non-afterlife-believing' spiritual beliefs of others. some people have beliefs different from your own and even athiests can come to term with death enough to not be 'uncomfortable' discussing it.

**Sigh** I'm all for organic food! It's just when people make that their sole guiding belief, or shopping or whatever, that kind of materialism is what I'm objecting to. All of which I enjoy. But none of them are *the point.*

And, to repeat, seeing this suffering is important, and a great testimony, to the fact that we all suffer, and can take inspiration from his suffering in our own moments of pain and grief. So taking care of the living DOES involve thinking of, taking inspiration from, and taking care of the dead and dying. we'll all be there someday...

Well, I don't know what Gothamist's upbringing, but I do know that some people, while very respectfully of the Pope, will not get affected as it has no direct personal relevance to them.

Just to be Clear: People who are NOT impacted profoundly by his passing aren't bad people.

I don't think Gothamist is being "Snarky" about this.

If you believe that the Pope story has no footprint in New York, I urge you to visist St. Patrick's cathedral tonight.

The Pope's decline is a story, a sad one, but a story, because he is in a position of enormous power and responsibility. And unlike the previous stories on his declining health, it appears that his death is imminent. This story stands on its own, but this website is a weblog about New York. So if you really want to understand the significance of the Pope and his ailing health, you might want to try one of the links that Gothamist provided.

The Pope's decline is a story, a sad one, but a story, because he is in a position of enormous power and responsibility. And unlike the previous stories on his declining health, it appears that his death is imminent. This story stands on its own, but this is a weblog about New York, not a general news source.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bo's Papa. Nicely said.

I think this is another case of Gothamist having its cake and eating it too...Gothamist seems to have no problems voicing its opinion about the Mayor, or the MTA, or New York State politics, but can't seem to comment seriously about the passing of a religious leader and the impact that it will have on the direction of the Church and, yes, NEW YORK CITY's many Catholics.

The stories of Schiavo and the Pope are linked because they bring into focus the interplay of religion and politics, individual decisonmaking and governmental edict, life and death. Frank Rich is able to synthesize such disparate stories into coherent thought pieces...and not hamhandedly.

I think what offends is that Gothamist can be snarky about the Establishment (while being of it), but adopts a holier than thou attitude when matters touch upon Brooklyn, or up and coming bands, or pandas.

I'm not even Catholic, but am deeply struck by the impact the Pope's passing is having on friends who are.

The public grief on display for the children murdered in Minnesota is something very different from the public sadness surrounding the Pope's ill health and what looks to be his looming death. To draw an equivalence between the two for the purpose of making a generalization about mourning in the media is, to be kind, uneasy ground.

We grieve for children shooting children because of the demise of promise and the ruination of innocence; those who grieve for public or historic figures like the Pope grieve for them because his demise signals the foreclosure of a certain era or ethos.

Public grieving is something that we should do more, not less; if we as Americans did it more, we would no doubt do it better, and with greater dignity than has been on display in recent days. The question to ponder here is not, what does this supposedly new culture of public grief mean, but rather, why we begin from the premise that grieving is something we must do in private.

In the Pope's case, I don't think it's so much a "death watch" per se as much as people not believing he's gone.

When he became the Pope, the world was incredibly different. Seeing video of his first public appearances was startling in comparison to his health these last few years. He's done so much, lots of people will have a hard time coping with his death.