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Okay, one power outage to mess up your morning commute is bad, but people can generally shrug it off. Two power outages on the same line and riders get irritated. Then a third power outage, right at the evening rush hour, New Yorkers just start thinking about storming the MTA headquarters with pitchforks and torches - if only they could get there. And that was the general sentiment after the 4,5, and 6 lines were affected by power outages. The 7AM power outage may have been caused by an A/C power issue at Grand Central, which then caused a signal problem. Then some other circuits blew, and when the MTA put in temporary cable, it shorted out and caused an afternoon power outage. Finally, at around 5:50PM, the MTA found a 2' by 3' hole in a manhole near the 33rd Street station, where water and salt had corroded through the subway's concrete ceiling. Best is that the MTA does "not know when this hole was dug or by whom." They think it was caused by an excavation but it might have been dug by another agency. This time around, the MTA learned their lesson and declined to say when the 4, 5, 6, service would be normal, but it seems to running normally for now.
And with today's 7 train incident, people are complaining that whenever the fare goes up, not to mention suffering from "I'm helpless at the clutches of the MTA" blues, service gets worse. Gothamist feels the bigger problem is the lack of support the state and city gives the MTA, but that's a whole other political nightmare to deal with.
Were you affected by the 4/5/6 problems? Given that this paralyzed East Side commutes, you'd think that the Second Avenue Subway would be more of a reality. See what happened when Mayor Bloomberg was affected by a subway problem last year, and revel in subway paranoia with the NY magazine story about the subway crisis.
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Privatize the damn thing! Even a privatized subway would be more transparant to the public that uses it that this archaic public authority crap. Didn't Robert Moses teach us that public authorities don't work?!?!
Off topic a bit: Cute Bears, very appropriate on St. Patrick's day.
If I remember correctly, the different Transit lines were once Private.
Did they get Socialized after going Belly Up?
My bone to pick with the MTA: The MTA is an fairly Independent Authority that does not seem to directly answer to anyone. IMO, This invites trouble and gives the Mayor and Governor a dodge when it isn't funded properly by the State and or City.
>>They think it was caused by an evacuation
Ermm, do you mean excavation? We're pretty jaded about our subway here in NY, but I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if folks had to dig a hole and claw their way out from underground... :)
The Subway started out as 3+ independant agencies; the IND, the IRT, and the BMT. There were also independant subways and Els in the outerboroughs that were bought out by the big three. the IRT and the BMT lost money at an alarming pace and after the government started the IND to try to avoid the corruption that was involved in the private companies, it became apparent that private subways do not work.
Subways are inhererently unprofitable. One of the reasons IRT went belly-up was that they did not raise the fare from 1904 to 1948.
The problem right now is that state funding of the MTA has gone down drastically since the 80s. Albany is so messed up that I dont see that getting fixed in the near future, though
Robert Moses taught us to not let people who hate cities dictate how they are run.
I agree with MT.
Although S.D. does have a good point regarding accountability, his critism is misdirected. The MTA's privileged quasi-private status only makes it ripe for abuse, and fully "socializing" it will only make it worse, not better.
The answer is to privatize the damn thing.
Critical readings on the IRT/MTA:
http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=69&sortorder=articledate
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1172
Heh heh, olga.
"Subways are inhererently unprofitable. One of the reasons IRT went belly-up was that they did not raise the fare from 1904 to 1948."
Did you know that the government forbade them from raising the price from a nickel? Could you blame the IRT for going belly-up because of that?
What you should do is lay the blame at the doorway of the party responsible; government intervention.
Let this be a lesson to those who don't understand the destruction wreaked by do-gooder government types.
We have at least one successful private subway system in the world that I know of in Hong Kong. If anything government in this country has shown an incredible talent for gross disregard and even abuse of transportation systems. Look at Amtrak. The government at both state and federal levels obviously sees no value in a viable rail system be it local or national and it should be taken out of their hands.
Daybird brings up a totally relevant point about Robert Moses. Do you think Pataki or Kalikow or any other political leader (aside from our own Bloomy) has ever set foot as a commuter on a subway in any city? I'm sure if you took away Kalikow's Town Car he's change his tune.
This is in reference to a different post, but there's no comments section over there. Does anyone know where the Oldboy screening is taking place? I need to be at Carolines around 10:30/11:00, and want to find out if the theater is nearby.
Privatization is all well and good but it's not going to be a cure-all, especially when the public good (which the subway has to serve) doesn't always go hand in hand with the bottom line, and these fires and delays won't stop happening until they replace the 19th Century technology.
I'll buy a beer for anyone who can modernize the system within a reasonable timeframe without drastic service disruptions and fare hikes.
Another thing to consider - most profitable (or at least viable) transit systems charge by miles travelled or by zones. Would people be willing to put up with paying, say, $2 to get from to Midtown from the Village but $5 from Brooklyn?
The "Public Good" (a dubious cause, if any) would be best served by privatization, not by [quasi-]governmental transportation authorities.
Essentially, the arguments for privatization are grounded in both ethical and utilitarian arguments. (Utilitarians are the sort who believe the ends justify the means, regardless if the means are ethical. This applies to people who place the goal of "public good" as the end, and stomp on private property rights as their means.)
Fear not, even if you believe in "public good" utilitarian ethics, it is quite clear that private transit systems better serve the public good.
Paddy O - the Oldboy screening is in Midtown.
And I think Felix Salmon had mentioned privatization earlier; the MTR in HK is a profitable subway that's partly privatized, I think...and the subways does charge by zone. I think one way zoning could work is if certain discounts (sorta like a Metrocard - 11th ride is free, etc) kicked.
iceberg,
I'm not against privatization per se, but how many intracity mass transit systems are private and profitable? I'm not saying the MTA can't afford to cut out some fat and red tape, but it's the old South Park joke:
Step 1. Privatization
Step 2. ?
Step 3. Profits!
Hong Kong is really the exception that proves the rule. It's subsidy-free, but certainly not state intervention-free and it was actually profitable (albeit with subsidies) before it went private. It was more the set of factors unique to Hong Kong rather than the deicision to privatize.
Again, I'm not dismissing the idea of privatization. I'm sure a private MTA would have more innovative ideas for raising funds and cutting costs, but then again, most transit systems don't break even without a good deal of goverment subsidies. Are there lessons to be learned from Hong Kong? Sure. Will privatization save MTA? Maybe, but not without a bunch of other stuff going right and Albany and/or City Hall getting behind it.
Privatization works because they can raise fares to a level where it is profitable to operate the subways, but can tell everyone to eff off. Government entities have to deal with politicians who have to make people happy. These two things are inherently at odds. So privatize-->improve service AT AN INCREASED COST or leave it as it is, crappy and relatively affordable.
Meme, your strawman posture of privatization is incorrect. If the subway system was re-privatized, and fully deregulated, the new owners would seek to maximize profitability of the system, and to stem losses.
In order to do such, they would have to encourage the maximum usage of the system. HOWEVER, Increasing fares would not do more than have people question whether they should continue using the system, or to find better alternatives- carpooling, biking, rollerblading, taxi, bus, helicopter, telecommute, new job closer to home, etc.
Ways in which they can encourage usage- lower cost per use/week/month prices; better and faster service, cleaner and nicer trains and stations, station shops offering more than newspapers, periodicals and candy, for example, having Starbucks concessions inside stations; holding lotteries awarding random users of the system...
In short, there is no lack of ways in which the ridership can increase and profitably at the same time.
Dollars to donuts the buyers would be oil and/or car companies who would have an interest in running public transport into the ground. Haven't we learned anything from Robert Moses?
Dissolve the MTA. Restore the subways to city ownership. Lease it out to several or more private companies operating competing systems along the rough lines of the IRT, BMT, & IND and of course the SIRT.
Maybe fares will go up or down. Maybe rent and advertising revenue should increase. Or perhaps incorporate and pay dividends to stockholders. What better incentive to ride the IRT than to own shares of IRT Inc.
There should never be a monolithic company, public authority running the entire system unbeholden to anyone. That's the lesson we should learn from Robert Moses.