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It looks like the MTA is doing what matters: The NY Post reports that the MTA is busting a Brooklyn bagelry, F Line Bagels in Carroll Gardens, for mentioning the subway in its name and in its store's decorations. Apparently an MTA lawyer went into their store to let them know that the MTA wants the Smith Street store cease-and-desist with its various subway memorabilia, not to mention the store's name, or pay the MTA a licensing fee. The owner, Farid Assad, said he decorated the store with signs and pole he found on the MTA website, saying, "If they don't want people to use this stuff, then why make it available for anyone to buy? We bought the stuff on the MTA Web site, so we assumed it would be OK to use it." Mister, the MTA is not supposed to make sense, okay? Just because the MTA is trashing their stuff doesn't mean it's supposed to be enjoyed by mom-and-pop businesses. Of course, Gothamist hasn't visited F Line Bagels, so if anyone has, let us know; we'd understand that the MTA would be upset if the store's bagels absolutely sucked.
And what does this mean for other F train mentions? Is MTA going to bust Paul Ford's Ftrain? (Gothamist's interview with Paul here.) Are they going to make Elliott Smith's estate pay a fee for Bled White? And we thought the F train was the love train - what is this world coming to?
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Been there, right by my stop. It's good enough, bagels and all. I actually raised the issue with someone there once who said the same thing. It's a nice layout, they obviously put some cash into the place; shame they lacked the foresight to at least approach the MTA.
The MTA is being ludicrous here...they're like the friend whom is suddenly desperate for the $5 they lent you 5 years ago when they've blown their bank account.
What a fun internet we have! The MTA raises a trademark dispute, and the first thing Gothamist thinks of is, "OMG! What about bloggers who name their sites after the subway?"
A bit of perspective: It doesn't matter how successful or popular a blog is, none are as important in the grand scheme of things compared to an outer-borough bagel shop. A bagel shop sees way more people per day than 99% of blogs. And no one views the really popular 1% in a serious manner.
On the plus side, all your favorite sites can use whatever they want for decoration, and pretty much fly under the radar. I'm sure the MTA's lawyers will say, "Well, we could sue them, but for what? For a site only read by their mothers and their friends?" Heh heh.
when we had our 'map unwrap' party two years ago for DYNAMAP (gracing the pages of gothamist a while ago), a party invite was sent (mistake, of course) to counsel's office of the MTA. the postcard advertised 'dancing mini skirt metro card girls.' that brought the silly wrath upon urban mapping llc as well. rather funny, i thought.
i understand the MTA must protect its intellectual property, but the problem is that they do not consistently apply this policy, making it seem random...
You got your mom to read your blog? How? Any tips?
Does anybody know what font are they (MTA) use for their signage? Helvetica?
um, it is stupid that a public entity acts like a bully. it is like the city suing people naming themselves after NYC. absurd.
Ok, I'm no lawyer, but it seems that the main problem here is the signage. Otherwise the MTA could go after "Subway" sandwich shops.
So just change the sign. Heck, you could probably just get rid of the orange circle around the F and call it a day. Oh wait, here's the picture: http://www.curbed.com/archives/2005_03_ftrain-thumb.jpg
Anybody that IS a lawyer want to weigh in? Anybody that IS a lawyer actually have time to read blogs?
If I owned the bagel store, I would submit to the MTA's request and change the sign.
Of course the new sign would read "F the MTA!"
Dear MTA,
Please stop using our family name to identify the 50th St. stop on the F line. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Best wishes,
Figures the tools at the MTA have nothing better to do ...like worry about something that actually makes the trains run on time and safety.
No way! Screw that important stuff, lets harass a bagel shop that in no way cuts into their bottom line. And develop an even worse public opinion of the MTA. (Man They're Assholes)
Who do these clowns think they are?
A commercial product like Pepsi and have to protect their brand identity.
Their energy is better focused elsewhere, Like firing the jackass who's Idea it was to go after the bagel shop. Your salary could get the MTA some needed budget relief the Management clowns seem to have screwed the pooch on.
Gee... I wish I could get a job as an executive with the MTA... oh wait I am not stupid enough for the position, plus I can balance a budget.
FUMTA
Ya know, I find it interesting that people get pissed off about the MTA protecting its copyright but then get pissed off to see all the bootleg FDNY crap around the WTC site without fire dept. permission. What -- firefighters deserve to get a little extra money from licensed merchandise but subway conductors do not? hell, if this guy has to pay a fine, that's X amount of dollars going into the MTA budget that doesn't come from another rate hike.
Yeah, we should stick up for the little guy sometines but this guy is obviously in violation of the copyright.
Jenny has a point, but I'd be interested to see some hard numbers on the cost of enforcing the copyright versus the cost of just letting this bagel shop proceed. Seems to me like the smartest thing for both parties would be to forge some kind of mutually beneficial licensing agreement, but I know that licensing of state properties is often monopolized by single players because of political favoritism, kickbacks, etc.
One thing is certain: this is some nice free publicity for the bagel shop, tucked away as it is near a relatively obscure and creepy station (I can never pass through that station without thinking of the famous "GoodFellas" scene that was shot there).
This is an inane conversation. The MTA has an obligation to pursue these issues for a number of reasons, such as:
1. It's our copyright, as in, we pay for it with tax dollars. No one should be able to benefit with remittance to the city. Should this store grow into a chain, the cost of remediation is simply higher, cause they will have lawyers to fight with.
2. I know everyone thinks the whole world speaks English, but the signage MUST be protected, otherwise non-English speakers might think that this is a Subway entrance, or somehow affiliated with the city, and becomes potentially liable should something go awry (and if you think this is overstating the case, the law firm that won the majority of trip and fall lawsuits against the city made so much money doing so that they canvassed the entire city and created a list of places that they could sue over, and gave the list to the city, knowing there were still years of lucrative lawsuits coming while getting the good PR for "helping" the city repair sidewalks) or simply cause unnecessary confusion, particularly if its location is proximate to a real F station. Considering that a number of station entrances are engaged to buildings, it's not unsreasonable to see an Orange 'F' on the side of a building and think 'subway'.
Looks like Mike Doughty (nee Soul Coughing) better start saving his nickels for his visit from the MTA lawyers...
"Thank You, Oh Lord, For Sending Me The F Train" -- no song has better summed up that late-night-drunk-i-gotta-get-home platform wait. :)
so it's actually a TM issue, but that's not the point. my company got in a nasty lawsuit over something related. the MTA has a duty to protect its assets, but it's unfortunate that they are so neurotic about it. The MTA doesn't own 'Subway' just like they don't own the number "2." But...if used in the context of urban public transport, it begins to get tricky. Maybe the MTA should grant them a license (i haven't been in the bagel store either, so don't know what it looks like) and have both sides be happy. B/c the MTA is also (supposed to) serve the public good, they really have an interest in spreading the MTA pony all over town.
This statement:
"I know everyone thinks the whole world speaks English, but the signage MUST be protected, otherwise non-English speakers might think that this is a Subway entrance, or somehow affiliated with the city, and becomes potentially liable should something go awry."
Is ludicrous and irresponsible to boot. The perception of liability doesn't create liability. If you're a spokesperson for the Transit Authority, I humbly submit you get your talking points in order before you embarass yourself and your agency any further.
Incidentally, if your post about befuddled foreigners wandering into bagel shops looking for a ride to the Port Authority is any indication of the sort of shrewd legal argumentation we can look forward to from the MTA in any future litigation, I believe that the good people at F Line Bagels have nothing whatsoever to fear.
Yes, the MTA has a right and duty to protect their trademarks. But there's more than a bit of irony in the fact that they take the initative to send some staff lawyer out to a bagel shop while having to be forced by Richard Brodsky to seek more than just the Jets' bid for the Hudson Yards (and we still don't know if Bruce Ratner will be the sole bidder for the Vanderbilt yards)?
Perception of liability doesn't mean that the city won't be the harassed with a meaningless lawsuit. There's almost no way they would lose such a suit, but a wack job class action suit charging the MTA with inadequate signage would costs more in billable hours than it takes to dispatch one lackey with a cease and desist letter. Say, ten hours instead of one, but that's still a net savings.
I'm still confused about how idiotic the responses are here. Would anyone even be opening their mouth is this place were call Barneys Bagels, and used the logo type for Barneys? Or Brooks Brothers Bagels? If the MTA allowed one shop to slap a reproduction of their carefully maintained signage system on any store, don't you think every lame ass bodega owner (or bagel shop owner) would have one on their awning?
The MTA is a public enterprise. Its signage is no more private "intellectual property" than a chair in City Hall is the mayor's personal furniture. Can I look forward to the MTA sending me a check as part of any settlement with F Line Bagels?
Harassing bumfuzzled transit bureaucracies with nuisance litigation is one of our most fundamental rights as Americans.
Actually, the lawyers I talked to about this (what's wrong with me, anyway?) said that the thing about copyright is that you have to aggressively enforce it, or the courts think that you don't care, and once that happens anyone can use your stuff
not copyright, trademark. big diff.
The MTA is better of fining filthy nyc riders who spit chewing gum, urinate and thrash the rat hole known as the nyc subway.
the bagel store, since nobody else seems to have been there, is covered with subway signs bought from the mta web site (like the small ones on the poles of subway stops that say what stop you're at), its walls are mosaics that make it look like a subway station, the part of the counter where you get soup is marked with a gray (s), etc. it's been very well planned and it's very cute. they would have to do a whole lot more than just change their main sign.
I'm not sure I have any legal basis for doing so, but I've gotta side with the little guy on this. I have a shot of the store here since I live right down the block from the shop.